Full Version: Things in need of revision
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| So it makes more sense for slow guy Bob to get off his first shot at about the same time speed sammy Joe does... and then stand there slack jawed while Joe empties his clip into him? |
Yes, yes it does. Because the results of that are much closer to what would reasonably happen (Joe starting to shoot 0.35sec before Bob and the two then continuing to fire with Joe shooting at four times the rate of Bob). Also, doing it the other way can be seen as unfair to the mundanes, because the first shot is so very, very important and they should, reasonably, get their first shot very soon after the cyberfreaks.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| If someone's faster, they're faster. It makes more sense for them to get several actions at the start of a round than at the end of it (to me), for being quick. |
I can see that. But, again, from my perspective ranking the actions based on when someone would act first makes more sense. And Bob should, reasonably, act first very soon after Joe acts first.
[Edit]
| QUOTE (The_Sarge) |
| Problem is: If a combat turn is 3seconds long. And Mr. Sammy manages it to empty half his clip in it, because he has so many actions, why can't Joe Bob average?! |
Agreed, but that's not so much a problem with the initiative system as it is with the rate of fire of semi-automatic weapons in SR and the inability to fire guns faster with some kind of penalty. That can easily be house ruled away -- but considering that hardly any RPGs have such allowances without special abilities, I doubt that'll happen in canon SR4.
Because Mr Sammy is capable of aiming and pulling the trigger just that much faster.
And it makes more sense for me if Mr Sammy's standing there blam-blam-blamming away to have a few answering shots come from his untrained opponent somewhere in the middle of Mr Sammy's barrage, instead of at the beginning. Logically speaking, if you're faster than someone else, you're faster than them, and go before, not after, they do.
And it makes more sense for me if Mr Sammy's standing there blam-blam-blamming away to have a few answering shots come from his untrained opponent somewhere in the middle of Mr Sammy's barrage, instead of at the beginning. Logically speaking, if you're faster than someone else, you're faster than them, and go before, not after, they do.
Erm... Ok. What about Full Auto, then?
It's just pulling the trigger.
If someone gets three passes in a turn, he can unload his whole mag, reload the next pass, and unload the rest of the mag. If he's got 5 passes, he can empty three magazines in a turn. Whoa.
Whereas a mundan can only empty a mag.
Granted, both won't hit that much, but it's just crazy that in SR initiative, the augumented metahumans can defy some natural laws...
It's just pulling the trigger.
If someone gets three passes in a turn, he can unload his whole mag, reload the next pass, and unload the rest of the mag. If he's got 5 passes, he can empty three magazines in a turn. Whoa.
Whereas a mundan can only empty a mag.
Granted, both won't hit that much, but it's just crazy that in SR initiative, the augumented metahumans can defy some natural laws...
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| And it makes more sense for me if Mr Sammy's standing there blam-blam-blamming away to have a few answering shots come from his untrained opponent somewhere in the middle of Mr Sammy's barrage, instead of at the beginning. Logically speaking, if you're faster than someone else, you're faster than them, and go before, not after, they do. |
A mundane, average human being without special training of any kind can, IRL, can react to situations such as I described above in 0.5 seconds or less, like I said. I should know, I've done a bunch of draw-and-shoot with turning targets on a range with a pistol. When you just have to point-and-shoot, that cuts down to 0.3 seconds or less. Having insane reflexes might allow you to cut this time down to 0.1 seconds, allowing you to take the first shot every time (which is very important in a gunfight), but that's still only 0.2-0.4 seconds before the other guy fires at you. Even in a 3-second Combat Turn with 4 Init Passes, that's still very soon afterwards.
With the older edition initiative rules, you're basically ranking actions in a CT based on when the character would reasonably finish doing them, while the SR3 rules ranks actions based on when a character would start doing them.
| QUOTE (The_Sarge) |
| Erm... Ok. What about Full Auto, then? It's just pulling the trigger. |
That's been done to death. Search the Shadowrun forum with "rate of fire". Suffice it to say, it can be and has been house ruled so that the RoF is limited by the gun alone, but so that your reflexes still allow you to fire those rounds more accurately.
I am about 100% certain that this problem will persist in SR4, however. RoFs are always fucked up in RPGs for some reason.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| A mundane, average human being without special training of any kind can, IRL, can react to situations such as I described above in 0.5 seconds or less, like I said. ...Having insane reflexes might allow you to cut this time down to 0.1 seconds...but that's still only 0.2-0.4 seconds before the other guy fires at you. |
Right.
And to me, logically, that .2-.4 second gap is filled with the insanely quick guy continuing to shoot. Not taking a break and waiting for his opponent to shoot back. I might just not be describing my mental image/concept/idea very well, I dunno. It's often hard to try and break down an RPG's initiative system with logic and reason (especially one where inhumanly fast players are in many cases the norm).
Anyways. I don't wanna get this thread (more) off topic, so I'll quit arguing.
I just think it's something that could be switched back to how it used to be, for the reasons I've stated, and leave it at that. The current init/action system just feels wrong to me. Maybe it's just 'cause I cut my SR teeth on the first edition, and got used to being scared as hell of fast guys. It just seems to me that fast people go, y'know, first instead of last all the time.
Actually, I like the idea of ditching the Init statistic altogether and just using Reaction in a Success Test for initiative.
Here's how I envision it working: everyone rolls their (augmented) Reaction against a base TN of 6, modified upward by wounds and other related penalties. You get 1 plus the number of successes in initiative passes for that combat turn; if you fumble you don't act that turn and just look like an idiot for 3 seconds. The order is determined first by the result of the die rolls, then (if there's a tie) by the Reaction attribute, or just rolling randomly if it comes to that.
Example: cybersammie Joe has an augmented Reaction of 12 (6 natural, 6 from his Wired Reflexes 2 which grants 3 extra Reaction dice now instead of 2 and +1 init dice). He rolls 12 dice against a TN of 6 and gets two successes, which gives him three initiative passes. So he writes down his top three dice rolls: 11, 9, 4. Bob the mundane has a Reaction of 3: he gets no successes so he writes down one his single highest die roll: 5. So in this case Joe goes twice, once at initiative count 11, then on count 9, then Bob goes once at 5, then Joe goes once at 4.
Sound reasonable? One thing I like about it is it incorporates the Success Test mechanics, which everyone already knows, rather than a whole new mechanic of adding an attribute value to dice that have no Rule of 6 applied. Another advantage it has is the natural staggering of initiative passes; notice how Joe went twice before Bob this time, but it could have been different depending on how the dice fell. I based the TN at 6 because I thought it was an appropriate number; Joe cyber will typically get around 2 successes, meaning three passes, while a mundane will usually flicker between one and two passes.
Here's how I envision it working: everyone rolls their (augmented) Reaction against a base TN of 6, modified upward by wounds and other related penalties. You get 1 plus the number of successes in initiative passes for that combat turn; if you fumble you don't act that turn and just look like an idiot for 3 seconds. The order is determined first by the result of the die rolls, then (if there's a tie) by the Reaction attribute, or just rolling randomly if it comes to that.
Example: cybersammie Joe has an augmented Reaction of 12 (6 natural, 6 from his Wired Reflexes 2 which grants 3 extra Reaction dice now instead of 2 and +1 init dice). He rolls 12 dice against a TN of 6 and gets two successes, which gives him three initiative passes. So he writes down his top three dice rolls: 11, 9, 4. Bob the mundane has a Reaction of 3: he gets no successes so he writes down one his single highest die roll: 5. So in this case Joe goes twice, once at initiative count 11, then on count 9, then Bob goes once at 5, then Joe goes once at 4.
Sound reasonable? One thing I like about it is it incorporates the Success Test mechanics, which everyone already knows, rather than a whole new mechanic of adding an attribute value to dice that have no Rule of 6 applied. Another advantage it has is the natural staggering of initiative passes; notice how Joe went twice before Bob this time, but it could have been different depending on how the dice fell. I based the TN at 6 because I thought it was an appropriate number; Joe cyber will typically get around 2 successes, meaning three passes, while a mundane will usually flicker between one and two passes.
I kind of like that suggestion...it sort of reminds me of 7th Sea's initiative mechanics (though they had some flaws too).
More general observation on initiative (in spoiler because I'm being long-winded):
More general observation on initiative (in spoiler because I'm being long-winded):
[ Spoiler ]
I don't know that Eyeless Blond's solution would fix that bug bear of mine (which bothers me because I'm a nit-picker, to be honest), but at least the mechanics are more in keeping with the rest of the SR system...
all these problems about the length of turns in sec....but has anyone noticed how long is the combat procedure in the REAL WORLD to play a combat scene?
It take damned tons of dices to deal a shoot fight between 4 runners, 7 gangers, a spellslinger and a critter.......the point is that you have to makes rolls for shooting-dodging-resisting-knockdown...and it is a lot of dices.
D20 is much more unrealistic and simplistic but, at least, give you the rhythm of a combat with the quick attack roll/damage roll combinations.......d20 players coming to Shadowrun are often discouraged because it is boring to wait your turn while people roll dices....
And in any case it is fun to see how much SR wants to be realistic but, on the other hand, is so "burocreatically" boring when it uses unrealistic and complex system liek thestress rules while it should be simpler to use a hit location table like Cyberpunk 2020........at least in Cyberpunk you know IMMEDIATELY if your arm has been cut off and you have not to wait (like in SR) for the rolls for the Destructive damage to be done AFTER the combat, when you try to recover and so not when actually your arm was really cut offf....... SR create situations like ".....what a surprise! you discover your arm was cut yesterday but youdid not notice until you went to hospital!...." which simply sucks.
Sr remains a "Slow" kind of system.
A SR big combat could need 50 minutes in the real world....while a similar big combat with D20 isresolved in 20 minutes.....it is a pity, because for many other things SR is a great game.
It take damned tons of dices to deal a shoot fight between 4 runners, 7 gangers, a spellslinger and a critter.......the point is that you have to makes rolls for shooting-dodging-resisting-knockdown...and it is a lot of dices.
D20 is much more unrealistic and simplistic but, at least, give you the rhythm of a combat with the quick attack roll/damage roll combinations.......d20 players coming to Shadowrun are often discouraged because it is boring to wait your turn while people roll dices....
And in any case it is fun to see how much SR wants to be realistic but, on the other hand, is so "burocreatically" boring when it uses unrealistic and complex system liek thestress rules while it should be simpler to use a hit location table like Cyberpunk 2020........at least in Cyberpunk you know IMMEDIATELY if your arm has been cut off and you have not to wait (like in SR) for the rolls for the Destructive damage to be done AFTER the combat, when you try to recover and so not when actually your arm was really cut offf....... SR create situations like ".....what a surprise! you discover your arm was cut yesterday but youdid not notice until you went to hospital!...." which simply sucks.
Sr remains a "Slow" kind of system.
A SR big combat could need 50 minutes in the real world....while a similar big combat with D20 isresolved in 20 minutes.....it is a pity, because for many other things SR is a great game.
| QUOTE (Demosthenes) |
| I don't know that Eyeless Blond's solution would fix that bug bear of mine (which bothers me because I'm a nit-picker, to be honest), but at least the mechanics are more in keeping with the rest of the SR system... |
Oh yeah, that's not going away any time soon. Sorry, but I haven't really seen many systems that adequately address that sort of issue that still grant the possibility of multiple passes in a single turn.
The thing that bugs *me* about my mechanic is that the variance is fairly high. I'd actually rather it be you roll twice your augmented Reaction and you get an extra pass for every two successes, but then the sams end up rolling a silly number of dice every combat turn (24 dice for Joe, and he's really not all *that* fast!)
| QUOTE (Luca) |
| Sr remains a "Slow" kind of system. A SR big combat could need 50 minutes in the real world....while a similar big combat with D20 isresolved in 20 minutes.....it is a pity, because for many other things SR is a great game. |
There's a lot you can do to streamline most combat, if you're willing to sacrifice realism. First off, you geek all the mages.
This applies in D&D as well, as they're the ones that always take *forever* lining up their spells, casting, forcing Spell Resistance, saving throws, and damage checks. Second, you get rid of Knockdown, which exists solely to enhance realism. That actually puts the SR system right on a par with the D&D system in terms of number of tests, and is a lot more realistic besides.
Hey, GunnerJ, try this out for QC stuff:
The Preskill notes on Quantum Computing and Quantum Information Theory
One can only presume that SR computing is based quantumly, because of the vast number of references to optical chips, optical computing, etc - No sane person would make a transition to optical computing without switching to QC, expecially since nano-scale mechanics would be more efficient than optical, in a classical paradigm.
Following from this, one can quantify the pulse, to a degree: the amount of data recovered from a holographic storage system in a single "pulse".
One thing I hope for in sr4 is a massive technical jump in the majority of sr: the game is, in essence, still based on Rob's perception of technology from '89, and frankly, it's insane from todays standpoint: as WK routinely points out, having a phone implant takes more essence than something like a new eye, which most of us would regard as odd, nowadays.
The indication that the Matrix will actually be as ubiquitous as we would expect it to be is a good start, but things still seem odd, such as there being metal in things like wired reflexes, which we'd expect to run on high-temperature superconductors and optical computing, both of which would use ceramics.
Or the lack of plastic derivatives in most situations (at Bristol University, UK, one of the members of the Polymer Group in the Physics Department has a patent on a type of plastic that is light as polythene, but stronger than steel, by weight)
something FanPro really need to do is look at technology that's beaing researched now, and see where that's going, so that in 6 years time we're not all befuddled by things like a built in phone that takes up one sixth of you body-space.
The Preskill notes on Quantum Computing and Quantum Information Theory
One can only presume that SR computing is based quantumly, because of the vast number of references to optical chips, optical computing, etc - No sane person would make a transition to optical computing without switching to QC, expecially since nano-scale mechanics would be more efficient than optical, in a classical paradigm.
Following from this, one can quantify the pulse, to a degree: the amount of data recovered from a holographic storage system in a single "pulse".
One thing I hope for in sr4 is a massive technical jump in the majority of sr: the game is, in essence, still based on Rob's perception of technology from '89, and frankly, it's insane from todays standpoint: as WK routinely points out, having a phone implant takes more essence than something like a new eye, which most of us would regard as odd, nowadays.
The indication that the Matrix will actually be as ubiquitous as we would expect it to be is a good start, but things still seem odd, such as there being metal in things like wired reflexes, which we'd expect to run on high-temperature superconductors and optical computing, both of which would use ceramics.
Or the lack of plastic derivatives in most situations (at Bristol University, UK, one of the members of the Polymer Group in the Physics Department has a patent on a type of plastic that is light as polythene, but stronger than steel, by weight)
something FanPro really need to do is look at technology that's beaing researched now, and see where that's going, so that in 6 years time we're not all befuddled by things like a built in phone that takes up one sixth of you body-space.
You are all assuming the core mechanics of the game remain similar, when all we really know to my knowledge is that the game will be using d6.
I hope there will be fewer rolls, not necesarily fewer dice. There are mainly two things that are great about the d6 system Shadowrun uses: It gets harder to fumble if you are better at what you do. And: If you have decent skill, you will statisticly succeed with a moderatly difficult task. If they could keep the statistics working as well as they are, and at the same time reduce the number of rolls, that would be something else.
I hope there will be fewer rolls, not necesarily fewer dice. There are mainly two things that are great about the d6 system Shadowrun uses: It gets harder to fumble if you are better at what you do. And: If you have decent skill, you will statisticly succeed with a moderatly difficult task. If they could keep the statistics working as well as they are, and at the same time reduce the number of rolls, that would be something else.
| QUOTE (Wireknight) |
| Character Creation, Edges, Flaws Everyone, just about, uses Edges and Flaws. I think a good, solid group of these should be introduced in the character creation section of the new rules, along with point-build system. |
Word.
But please - rebalance edge/flaw point values!
So far, most edges are either useless or too expensive while most flaws are too harsh or give too few points.
The reason for this is IMHO the extremely narrow value span: Most edges and flaws cost/give between 1 and 5 points.
Compare that to GURPS, TriStat or Fuzion where advantages/disadvantages can give/cost dozens of points and thus allow much finer tooling and adjusting to have the desired impact on the character.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) | ||
There's a lot you can do to streamline most combat, if you're willing to sacrifice realism. First off, you geek all the mages. |
I don't know. I was running a short combat sequence involving no more than 3 people at a time. In two init rolls, three players and 6 characters have SO FAR over 100 times.
However, three of the chars are dead (or close). Not saying it needed to be streamlined, because this includes init rolls, surprise tests, dodge, soak, and shill use. However, 100 rolls takes a while.
Just rolling dice myself for background to a short story involving 2-on-1 firearms combat lasting 3 turns took me an hour of rolling, plot planning, and typing up the basic actions.
In a way I hope there is still a resistance roll, though. Would feel strange to leave the targets to their faith, even if their stats had a lot to do with TN's and such.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) | ||
Oh? What are some of the nuts and bolts here? Why is it so worthy of being killed, and why won't it happen? |
In reverse order: it won't happen because a major part of the announcement is how wireless matrix access will turn deckers into mobile techno-wizards.
What follows is a rant from a few months ago. Some parts are obsolete now that we're seeing the extent of the changes leading to this, but on a whole I believe it still stands.
| QUOTE (Me) |
| WMI objections: Consistency with preexisting wireless access methods: In Shadows of Europe page 134, three things are said that jump out immediately. First, that the WMI runs off of a cellular network. Second, that it is slated to run at an I/O speed of 300, and third, that it is planned to scale to an I/O of 500. Wait a minute here. Time to hop in the Way Back Machine and pay a visit to our friend, Matrix. Pages 32-34, detailing the kinds of wireless links. This new tech is three times faster than preexisting cellular links, as fast as a direct laser link, and will, if it follows its scaling plan, eventually reach the bandwidth of a hardwired high-speed connection or a satellite uplink. Either the entire technology is fundamentally overadvertised or there needs to be some explanations as to why we haven't seen anything like parity on the hardwired side, let alone the higher-throughput wireless methods. Plausibility in Shadowrun as presented: What does the WMI give us that traditional links don't? Two things. One, pervasive Matrix access. I'll get to that later. The second? High-bandwidth wireless Matrix access without access to satellite clusters. Trick is, who needs bandwidth? Sound and video in extremely high definition is two megapulses a minute. It's pathetically easy to stream over a cellular link as already existing, without even passing the base bandwidth. For Full-X Simsense you exceed the base bandwidth, but at 3 megapulses per second it doesn't even manage to saturate a tenth of the currently existing cellular link bandwidth. So who would the extra bandwidth be of use to? The answer is as simple as it is damning to the concept of a corp-sponsored WMI: deckers. The implications that this will be made available to the public are just silly; it offers a significant security risk without benefit. Likewise if just used in corporate facilities. How many corp deckers really need to be able to walk around and do their job whilst on the toilet? Except even doing their job while on the john doesn't provide a reason, as even installing jackpoints to every stall would be pennies as compared to the WMI. It offers properly-equipped intruding deckers to deck from anywhere with reduced chance of their location being immediately identifiable, while offering advantages only to the deckers who are moving from place to place frequently, but performing high-bandwidth tasks while moving. Considering that deckers need to be RAS overridden to be particularly effective anyway, there's just no need. Basically, it's an extremely expensive and insecure solution in search of a problem. Though now that I think about it, I suppose that makes it more realistic instead of less… anyway. The negative effects and lack of positive effects of pervasive Matrix access: While this is certainly some distance off, I question whether the true impact of pervasive Matrix access is being understood. The only example I can think of would be Ghost in the Shell, especially the Stand Alone Complex. It'd fundamentally make deckers far more powerful by removing one of their barriers to operation, it would make them more secure by adding a step to tracking their location, it would make cranial cyberdecks far more powerful (though I suppose this is one potentially slightly positive effect, but that's neither here nor there), and it would do quite the opposite of what Munin says in Shadows of Europe when he states "your decker will soon be out of excuses to stay away from the heat". Quite the opposite, the decker is now free to roam and avoiding the heat becomes as simple as changing location frequently with a powered-down wireless unit. No longer do they have to come with the team if they want a guard on their meatbod during the run; they can deck from the van of the team Rigger, only without the disadvantages of the previous best-of-breed satellite link. Suddenly you have a situation where a decker's role has been catastrophically expanded in versatility. Without any preplanning, they can hop on the network and reprogram the traffic lights at an intersection, or similar. It's neat and all, yes, but it's a major power boost to an already powerful archetype. Ergh. This isn't nearly as complete as I'd like it to be, but I'm falling asleep and I want to give you a chance to look this over and possibly comment so I can refine my arguments (or, if any of them are flat-out wrong, so I can be informed of that). More if I think of it, or when I hear back from you. |
~J
Hm. That's a very good point Kag. In this case, though, it's all related to I/O speed, which could potentially not be a problem in the new WMI. Remember in 2070 the world has been burned a *second* time when it comes to the Matrix; everything crashing because a virus had enough bandwith to upload itself everywhere quickly. I can see one of the ways to counter that as artificially limiting the I/O speed of all wireless devices to something pathetically small, like 3-5Mp/second.
While a wireless interface may be practical, there is no good reason for it to outpertform the throughput of a wired connection. The problems in using a wireless vs. a wired netowrks for transmitting large amounts of data are many.
1: Wireless is a less efficient medium of transporting data. It takes more bandwidth for a given amount of data over a wireless network than it does with a wired network due to the requirement for more robust error correction and encoding schemes to handle propogation effects and interference issues that a wireless signal has to face. A wired connection is much easier due to the relative lack of interference and known propogation characteristics.
2: You can run multiple wired connections adjacent to each other without interference.
3: The extra error handling capability and encoding that a wireless network requires takes more processing power and time, adding more latency to the system.
1: Wireless is a less efficient medium of transporting data. It takes more bandwidth for a given amount of data over a wireless network than it does with a wired network due to the requirement for more robust error correction and encoding schemes to handle propogation effects and interference issues that a wireless signal has to face. A wired connection is much easier due to the relative lack of interference and known propogation characteristics.
2: You can run multiple wired connections adjacent to each other without interference.
3: The extra error handling capability and encoding that a wireless network requires takes more processing power and time, adding more latency to the system.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| Remember in 2070 the world has been burned a *second* time when it comes to the Matrix; everything crashing because a virus had enough bandwith to upload itself everywhere quickly. |
Really? From my reading of the description of System Crash it seems like the most significant effect is from physical attacks on the infrastructure.
| QUOTE (Smed) |
| 2: You can run multiple wired connections adjacent to each other without interference. |
That's actually not true unless they're each heavily shielded (or they're optical, which is the case in Shadowrun, but I thought I'd mention).
~J
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) | ||
Really? From my reading of the description of System Crash it seems like the most significant effect is from physical attacks on the infrastructure. |
I think people are assuming that Deus has something to do with it. It has been stated previously that System Crash and the other book (I forgot the name) will wrap up the Deus storyline.
Of course it could be that the facility that happens to be holding the most of Deus at the moment got blowed-up by terrorist neo-ludddites or something.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) | ||
Really? From my reading of the description of System Crash it seems like the most significant effect is from physical attacks on the infrastructure. |
Oh God, is it really? That's the dumbest idea I've ever heard in my life. Do you know how large a coordinated physical strike would be required to bring down the current Internet, let alone something like the Matrix? Oh I can't wait to hear about the 14 million person army that would have to appear overnight to significantly affct something like the Matrix.
On the one hand, it would only take a coordinated attack on about fourteen locations.
On the other, given the Crash of '29, I'd consider it a whopping big hole in the plot to say that the system was still that dependent on anywhere near that few main routers.
~J
On the other, given the Crash of '29, I'd consider it a whopping big hole in the plot to say that the system was still that dependent on anywhere near that few main routers.
~J
Really, EB is right. The whole point of the internet originally was so that the DoD could retain Command and Control in case of a frelling nuclear war with the USSR for cryin' out loud.
on the third hand, Winternight has been around since SR1 and, as far as i know, hasn't yet made a single major move. with a conspiracy that deep-seated, secretive, and powerful, just about anything is possible. besides, they wouldn't need to destroy the entire Matrix, just enough of it to cause serious problems--enough to show that the Matrix isn't invulnerable to physical destruction in its current form.
Winternight was actually introduced in Threats, which was released during the twilight of second edition Shadowrun.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Mar 16 2005, 11:51 AM) |
| On the one hand, it would only take a coordinated attack on about fourteen locations. |
Yes. That makes me wonder, does half of all Internet traffic still go through northern Virginia?
| QUOTE (Pthgar) | ||||
I think people are assuming that Deus has something to do with it. It has been stated previously that System Crash and the other book (I forgot the name) will wrap up the Deus storyline. Of course it could be that the facility that happens to be holding the most of Deus at the moment got blowed-up by terrorist neo-ludddites or something. |
Right. I know that.
However, the actual destruction of the Matrix and the software actions of Deus (and I hope, I hope, I hope, the Dissonance) won't help anything.
really? huh. i thought threats was older than that. even so, they were strongly established even then, which means they'd been around for a while.
I was just playing Lofwyr's Advocate. I do think that Dues will probably be a contributing cause, if not leading, to the end of Matrix 1.0. Heck, maybe they shut it down volunarily to kill him/it.
With the cover story that some catastrophy caused the shutdown
with the line about how terrorists blew up the Matrix, i'm doubting it was voluntary. except on the part of the terrorists.
Where was that line exactly? I can' find it at the moment.
i think it may be from the critical failure blurb or something, but i cant say for sure...
nope, its not from system failure. it only talks about terrorism increase in intensity, a megacorp about to die and a ai that comes back from the dead. it may well be the ai that takes out the matrix...
that is unless mfb sits on some info i have missed...
nope, its not from system failure. it only talks about terrorism increase in intensity, a megacorp about to die and a ai that comes back from the dead. it may well be the ai that takes out the matrix...
that is unless mfb sits on some info i have missed...
Where are you guys getting these blurbs about upcoming SBs?
ugh... I think I am getting a headache. Players latest greatest craziness incoming.
Maybe I'll just keep gaming as if the New Releases do not, nor ever will exist in my campaign.
huh
Maybe I'll just keep gaming as if the New Releases do not, nor ever will exist in my campaign.
huh
a pdf catalog from fanpro. i think there is a thread somewhere pointing you to where you can get it...
it's extrapolation. i could be wrong (it happened before, once), but follow my logic: apocalyptic terrorists are blowing things up; in the same timeframe, the Matrix goes down. Winternight is an apocalyptic terrorist organization that hates the Matrix. it fits pretty well.
well i cant find any direct refrences to the matrix going down (outside of the comments about matrix 2.0). it could allso happen that the matrix goes down to fight the ai belived dead. right now its to little info.
and mfb, may you point me to when you where wrong?
and mfb, may you point me to when you where wrong?
i'd have to do a search. it was a long time ago!
The change might not even be because the Matrix is destroyed. SR computer technology arose in response to the implementation of cyberdecks, and the results of Echo Mirage, which 'real' computer technology was completely unable to handle. If a similar technological revolution is experinced during the course of SC, the change will be because the old matrix style icongraphy and struture are no longer stable and secure.
Or the truth behind Deep Resonance is revealed, it's pissed, and all Otaku make the Matrix their domain, being very touchy about not letting anyone else into their playground. Haven't there been hints dropped that perhaps the Deep Resonance is the Crash Virus? Or that the Crash Virus is still around in some shape or form? 2065 could be the moment when it again attempts to destroy the digital world.
Or the truth behind Deep Resonance is revealed, it's pissed, and all Otaku make the Matrix their domain, being very touchy about not letting anyone else into their playground. Haven't there been hints dropped that perhaps the Deep Resonance is the Crash Virus? Or that the Crash Virus is still around in some shape or form? 2065 could be the moment when it again attempts to destroy the digital world.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) | ||
Yes. That makes me wonder, does half of all Internet traffic still go through northern Virginia? |
Answer: Sort of. There are a cluster of the DNS root servers around DC for obvious reasons, yes.
Otherwise, they're EVERYWHERE. Some of the actual machines are deep underground.
Personally, Id like to see the CORE rules in one book. Thats all. The CORE ideas with enough gear/magic/stuff to run a passable game. I like the idea of individual books having a plethra of other stuff, including extra rules. So the SSC V4, Rigger 4, Matrix 4 (ect ect ect) are fine with me. Just dont make it required to own the blasted things. What I DONT want is to see an SrComp. 3/4 of what is in there should have been in the core book.
As far as the NEW matrix, Im glad the old one died. It sucked. As far as plot? Well Im gonna be near the top to buy System Crash.
As far as the NEW matrix, Im glad the old one died. It sucked. As far as plot? Well Im gonna be near the top to buy System Crash.
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| and mfb, may you point me to when you where wrong? |
Don't worry, I have a list!
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Mar 16 2005, 08:01 AM) | ||
There's a lot you can do to streamline most combat, if you're willing to sacrifice realism. First off, you geek all the mages. This applies in D&D as well, as they're the ones that always take *forever* lining up their spells, casting, forcing Spell Resistance, saving throws, and damage checks. Second, you get rid of Knockdown, which exists solely to enhance realism. That actually puts the SR system right on a par with the D&D system in terms of number of tests, and is a lot more realistic besides. |
well, in D&D great part of the spells work quite automatically and one has only to do a saving throw. There are those who can resist and so you do the spell resistance test but that's it. So basically is 1 test (with 1 dice!), other times is 2 tests. More rarely is 3 tests but only is the spell is a touch spell and you have to hit the target.
In SR there is spell test-resistance-draining and so always 3 tests, for ever. And each test is a lot of dices.
Furthermore SE is longer in any case for combat.
SR has riggers, mages and deckers, each with his different set of rules and it is slow, but even if you take out these "special characters", the system is still slow.
OK, let's get rid of the knockdown. But you still have attack-dodge-resistance with tons of dices while in D&D there is only attack roll+damage roll (2 dices!!) and that's it.
D&D give you the rythm of combat, rolls are quick and the anxiety for the next blow is quick.
I SR every blow is certainly more meaningful......but how much time it requires? Is impossible to deal with a fight of 15 people + 15 people in SR. YOu can do it but it takes forever.
Mass combat rules like "Cry Havoc" appeared for D20....I do not remind any mass combat rules for shadowrun....this could be due to the setting (fantasy settings see more mass battles than futuristic ones) but the difficulty of the system has his part in it.
FUrthermore, are you sure about the realism? As I've already said, I think it is stupid that one knows that has lost his limb only AFTER the combat when he is in hospital trying to recover from a deadly wound.
Much better is the Cyberpunk 2020 hit location table when you kow immediately hatyou leg just exploded.
Simple and realistic.
Furthermore SR rules for stress just suck. they are not usable if you have too many players.
Every game goes for a different feel.
D&D and Cyberpunk have just a hit and miss combat system -- Shadowrun rewards people with excellent skills. D&D and Cyberpunk deal damage based almost solely on a brute-strength attribute (for melee combat, at least) -- Shadowrun gives extra damage for extra ability, not just raw power. In D&D and Cyberpunk, there's not much you can do to really focus on a given attack (prestige classes notwithstanding) -- Shadowrun gives you the option to spend combat pool and karma to hit when it's really important that you hit. D&D and Cyberpunk aren't Shadowrun, in other words, no matter how much Shadowrun might look and feel like the bastard child of the two (in setting, not rules).
If it's that big a deal to you, use d20 Modern or house-rule some magic into Cyberpunk:2020, instead of using the SR rules that make you roll so many dice...oh, and never, ever, ever, think about playing Champions. Your head would explode.
D&D and Cyberpunk have just a hit and miss combat system -- Shadowrun rewards people with excellent skills. D&D and Cyberpunk deal damage based almost solely on a brute-strength attribute (for melee combat, at least) -- Shadowrun gives extra damage for extra ability, not just raw power. In D&D and Cyberpunk, there's not much you can do to really focus on a given attack (prestige classes notwithstanding) -- Shadowrun gives you the option to spend combat pool and karma to hit when it's really important that you hit. D&D and Cyberpunk aren't Shadowrun, in other words, no matter how much Shadowrun might look and feel like the bastard child of the two (in setting, not rules).
If it's that big a deal to you, use d20 Modern or house-rule some magic into Cyberpunk:2020, instead of using the SR rules that make you roll so many dice...oh, and never, ever, ever, think about playing Champions. Your head would explode.
About Matrix 2.0 and Deus....
I was wondering... It would seem that Deus (and Megaera) seemingly became independent from the Matrix with "the Network". I haven't read much into Threats 2, but it would seem that shuting down the matrix would not "kill" Deus. Also seems that any entity residing in the Matrix would find some way of surviving and imminent shutdown.
..but then again, it might be the only way to deal with some omnipotent Matrix entity.
I was wondering... It would seem that Deus (and Megaera) seemingly became independent from the Matrix with "the Network". I haven't read much into Threats 2, but it would seem that shuting down the matrix would not "kill" Deus. Also seems that any entity residing in the Matrix would find some way of surviving and imminent shutdown.
..but then again, it might be the only way to deal with some omnipotent Matrix entity.
| QUOTE (Critias) | ||
Don't worry, I have a list! |
ouch...
and to the comment from mr.cato about surviving a shutdown:
pull a deus, only that this time you dont save your parts on 1001 diffrent brains but rather 1001 diffrent computers/hosts.
think about it like a distrubted computing bot-net
you just have every bot save its state when things go down and then have it try to reconnect when it comes back up. it may take the ai some time to recreate itself fully but it will survive...
| QUOTE (Critias @ Mar 17 2005, 04:55 AM) |
| Every game goes for a different feel. D&D and Cyberpunk have just a hit and miss combat system -- Shadowrun rewards people with excellent skills. D&D and Cyberpunk deal damage based almost solely on a brute-strength attribute (for melee combat, at least) -- Shadowrun gives extra damage for extra ability, not just raw power. In D&D and Cyberpunk, there's not much you can do to really focus on a given attack (prestige classes notwithstanding) -- Shadowrun gives you the option to spend combat pool and karma to hit when it's really important that you hit. D&D and Cyberpunk aren't Shadowrun, in other words, no matter how much Shadowrun might look and feel like the bastard child of the two (in setting, not rules). If it's that big a deal to you, use d20 Modern or house-rule some magic into Cyberpunk:2020, instead of using the SR rules that make you roll so many dice...oh, and never, ever, ever, think about playing Champions. Your head would explode. |
well but the point of this topic is to say what is wrong in Shadowrun and that's what I'm saying.
I am not saying that Cyberpunk 2020 or D&D are better than SR but that, for some verses, they do better.
I think that the firearm system of SR is amazing if compare dto the poor detail of Cyberpunk 202 when you have tons of weapons but, at the end of the day, they are all more or less the same.
Other times Sr complexity is a bit superfluous.
Are you sure SR is really realistic? Are you sure that the complexity of SR is always worth?
Often you throw tons of dices without having at the end, any realistic effect.
Do you think that the ABove mentioned problem of losing limbs with Deadly damage is realistic?
I really hope it will change because I'm bored to tell my players "oh, your character just got rid of his arm" the day after he just lost it. It is stupid and the deadly damage rules are stupidly dealt. Ifyour arm explode you know it immediately, not after the combat is ended and you tryto recover. In this sense Cyberpunk 2020 is better.
Same thing for the stress. I've only said that one could use a hit location table roughly similar to theCyberpunk one, just because, in that sense, anything would be more realistic and simpler.
Another point I would like to say is that SR is often too detailed.
Detrail is good for making background, and it is good to give variety to teh game but detail must be described and used with some simplicity or all will be just a chaos.
I mean, I really like the level of detail of Matrix or R3R but, at the end of the day, many details are just useless and confusing because they are dealt always in the most complex way possible.
Some months ago I did a topic in this forum dedicated to how much one can link Matrix & Reality through cams, drones and stuff like these. The post lasted 6 or 7 pages of people just making hypothesi and interpretations of how to link and use different objects from Matrix, RIgger £R, the basic manual, Man & Machine, etc.....the point is that there was no final answer. The rules were just confusing enough and great part of teh interpretations were reasonable.....and this chaos was created by the high rate of detail combined with the high rate of complexity.
I think that SR can be made simpler without becoming simple minded. D&D is an example of what I'd consider to be simple minded. I can't speak for Cyberpunk as I've never played it.
Rolling several dice isn't what makes Shadowrun complicated. It's easy to figure out how many dice to roll in most cases...and it's always fun to drop a whole handful of dice on the table.
The complicated part of SR is that there are so many different rule sets (vehicles, decking, magic, chemicals, etc.) and it's not as intuitive to go from one set to the next. I have to remember to halve power and drop the damage level when I'm attacking a vehicle and I have to remember that resisting manabolt is all or nothing instead of staged down.
Making vehicle stats relative to normal weapons and making attack spell damage work like every other type of damage are two steps they could take to streamline or simplify the rules without making them simple.
I certainly don't think they should be looking to D20 or any other system for ideas on how to improve SR. They should stick to their classesless, multiple levels of success core that makes SR so refreshing compared to other games and work rationally outwards from there.
And organize the hell out of what they come up with.
Rolling several dice isn't what makes Shadowrun complicated. It's easy to figure out how many dice to roll in most cases...and it's always fun to drop a whole handful of dice on the table.
The complicated part of SR is that there are so many different rule sets (vehicles, decking, magic, chemicals, etc.) and it's not as intuitive to go from one set to the next. I have to remember to halve power and drop the damage level when I'm attacking a vehicle and I have to remember that resisting manabolt is all or nothing instead of staged down.
Making vehicle stats relative to normal weapons and making attack spell damage work like every other type of damage are two steps they could take to streamline or simplify the rules without making them simple.
I certainly don't think they should be looking to D20 or any other system for ideas on how to improve SR. They should stick to their classesless, multiple levels of success core that makes SR so refreshing compared to other games and work rationally outwards from there.
And organize the hell out of what they come up with.
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