Streamlining Initiative in SR4, Make it act like the rest of the system? Options

[Eyeless Blond]

Every couple of months or so I notice someone else coming up with another "fix" for initiative in SR. Now that we're getting a new edition, it's possible that one of these myriad systems might actully be looked at for ideas.

I had a bit of a brainstorm the other night about a new system that ditches the seperate Init. statistic and rolls everything together into the Reaction attribute. Here's how I envision it working: everyone rolls their (augmented) Reaction against a base TN of 4, modified upward by wounds and other related penalties. You get 1 initiative pass for that combat turn, plus 1 for every two successes on the Reaction test; if you fumble you don't act that turn and just look like an idiot for 3 seconds. The order is determined first by the result of the die rolls, then (if there's a tie) by the Reaction attribute, or just rolling randomly if it ever comes to that.

Example: cybersammie Joe has an augmented Reaction of 12 (6 natural, 6 from his Wired Reflexes 2 which grants 3 extra Reaction dice now instead of 2 and +1 init dice). He rolls 12 dice against a TN of 4 and gets four successes, which gives him three initiative passes. So he writes down his top three dice rolls: 11, 9, 4. Bob the mundane has a Reaction of 3: he only gets one success so he writes down one his single highest die roll: 5. So in this case Joe goes twice, once at initiative count 11, then on count 9, then Bob goes once at 5, then Joe goes once at 4.

Advantages:
-It incorporates the Success Test mechanics, which everyone already knows, rather than a whole new mechanic of adding an attribute value to dice that have no Rule of 6 applied.
-Natural staggering of initiative passes; notice how Joe went twice before Bob this time, but it could have been different depending on how the dice fell.
-Not *that* much different from the current system in terms of who gets how many passes. Joe cyber will typically get around 4 successes, meaning three passes, while a mundane will usually flicker between one and (possibly) two passes.

Possible Complication:
-Wounds now affect the number of passes you get in a big way. If Joe had even one light wound in the above example, he would have lost one of his initiative passes. This could be a good thing as it makes wounds even more debilitating, but then it could be very bad for that same reason.
(EDIT)-THere will be a lot more ties in initiative, as the counts will usually not spread out that much. This could potentially slow down combat if several people with the same Reaction score try to go on the same initiative count and have to roll randomly to figure out who goes first.

Sound reasonable?

[GrinderTheTroll]

What's so wrong with the rather long-standing Initiative system? IMO, it was one the best Initiative systems I've used that didn't have bizzare rules about attacks and timing.

I like it being more random (with base reaction pushing up your chances of having consistantly more actions) than treated like a skill as you are proposing.

[Kagetenshi]

I don't think it's broken. A reversion to SR2 rules might make more sense, but for a combination of sensibility and game-balance, SR3 init is very much what I'd like to see.

~J

[Smed]

I like the idea. Seems simple enough.

[Charon]

I'd like initiative to be as in D&D. I mean you roll once to see who goes first and then things become cyclical for the rest of the fight. No new additional initiatove each rounds saves a lot of time.

I would do it in SR3 except that with the actual system, a wired character who rolls low would get royally screwed if he had to keep that initiative for the whole fight. Some character are supposed to get more action in less time than others. And some player have so much variation on their initiative that they can easily get between 2 and 4 actions each round! As a result, a wired reflex 3 PC who gets unlucky and rolled 17 faced with an unchipped opponent who got lucky and rolle 11 will end up going first and then just alternate attacks with his opponent for the rest of the fight. After 500K and 5 points of essence, I could see the wired PC foam at the mouth at such a revolting development...

I could see a system where you roll to see who goes first on phase 0 and then you add a speed factor to see when you can act next and when. Let's say a PC with a speed factor of 6 and another one with a speed factor of 11. The first one would act on phase 6, 12, 18, 24 etc. while the second would act on phase 11, 22, 33 etc.

You keep going until the fight is over.

The only problem would be determining when dice pool refresh. It could simply be at 25, 50, 75 etc. Or something like that.

It is clear in that scenario who is chipped and who is not, but it doesn't require rolling regularly to prove it.

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Eyeless Blond]

Well, that's another way of doing it Charon. The problem with that system though (the same with the current initiative rules) is that the way it's set up is inherently different from every other test in the game. Nowhere else do you take an attribute and add random number to is. In fact, those die rolls are strange, non open-ended numbers to boot, where the rule of 6 and the rule of 1s don't apply. Everything about SR3 initiative right down to the base dice mechanic is unique to initiative, which makes it very hard to pick up immediately, even if after a couple of weeks it's just as natural as rolling a skill test.

That's where my system shines. The test you're making is a Success Test, against a TN of 4 modified by wound modifiers. Everything about the test is the same as for a majority of skill tests. The only thing that's even slightly new is the whole writing down of numeric results thing, and that is done elsewhere in the rules as well (area effect spells, for instance.)

[Charon]

[GrinderTheTroll]

"If it aint broke then don't fix it" is my line of thinking, hell I'm still not sure SR4 is even a good idea.

[Charon]

[Jrayjoker]

[Eyeless Blond]

It's not broke for you because you've been using it for awhile. For a newbie just coming into the system it's very, very broke, for two reasons:

-huge, gigantic rules bloat, spread across several poorly cross-referenced and indexed books. I mean, sure, *you* can tell me where the Lockpicking rules are (SOTA '63) or where the rules for ruthenium are (M&M), or even where the rules for skillsofts are (Cannon Companion) because you've read all the books, but a new person has no idea where to start
-mechanics that have no qualms about switching between completely different and contradicting dice mechanics for no good reason. First off, you have Success Tests and Open Tests, which are similar but different enough to confuse new players. Then you have stuff like Initiative, which is a completely different dice mechanic and ignores the rules common to both Success Tests and Open Tests.

[Charon]

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Eyeless Blond]

So am I. As it stands rules for initiative are spread over the entire SR3 book, and are scattered through several other books. Where is the rule saying that the maximum number of init dice you can have is 5d6? Where are the rules for init of a character using the matrix using pure DNI? trodes? tortise mode? How do you determine the initiative of passengers and when they go in relation to the driver? None of it is in the section on Combat, which is where initiative is discussed in detail. Most of those aren't even in the SR main book.

The second point is self-evident: init is calculated in a way unlike any other test in SR, and it doesn't need to be. Damage and HP are the way they are in D&D only because of legacy reasons and I doubt anyone thought of a better way to do it. Neither of these are good reasons to keep the SR initiative system as it is: holding to stupid traditions only because you're afraid of change is not a valid reason to keep things the same, and ignorance is never a good excuse to do anything.

Not to mention that D&D is simplistic enough that it can deal with a couple of nonsensically different rule mechanics without too much trouble. SR is far more complex, and simply cannot afford to waste new players' time with quirky rules when there's so much else to assimilate.

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Eyeless Blond]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Kagetenshi]

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Eyeless Blond]

Huh. I swear I read something like that somewhere too... oh, here it is, on p. 24 of Matrix:

[mfb]

yeah. here's a good one: try to find the rules for masking wards. if you already know where they are, don't spill--let's see how long it takes someone who doesn't.

[GrinderTheTroll]

Yeah, a nice cross-reference sheet would be really handy for lots of SR rules.

As far as Initiative goes, I know it would be nice to have a "Grand Unified Initiative Theory" and for the most part it is, with few exceptions like you pointed out. I assumed you where talking about Meatbody Initiative, not Matrix Initiative, I've always looked at each facet of SR as being a "different but similar" ruleset, so I've always expected each to have its own set of exceptions.

[hahnsoo]

The PDFs are great in this regard. Just search for the term you want, and bingo, it's there.

[Luca]

that's a further complication. Leave teh initiative system as it is and do not let me roll more damned dices!!!
Why you all guys like to roll all such dices?