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Eyeless Blond
Every couple of months or so I notice someone else coming up with another "fix" for initiative in SR. Now that we're getting a new edition, it's possible that one of these myriad systems might actully be looked at for ideas.

I had a bit of a brainstorm the other night about a new system that ditches the seperate Init. statistic and rolls everything together into the Reaction attribute. Here's how I envision it working: everyone rolls their (augmented) Reaction against a base TN of 4, modified upward by wounds and other related penalties. You get 1 initiative pass for that combat turn, plus 1 for every two successes on the Reaction test; if you fumble you don't act that turn and just look like an idiot for 3 seconds. The order is determined first by the result of the die rolls, then (if there's a tie) by the Reaction attribute, or just rolling randomly if it ever comes to that.

Example: cybersammie Joe has an augmented Reaction of 12 (6 natural, 6 from his Wired Reflexes 2 which grants 3 extra Reaction dice now instead of 2 and +1 init dice). He rolls 12 dice against a TN of 4 and gets four successes, which gives him three initiative passes. So he writes down his top three dice rolls: 11, 9, 4. Bob the mundane has a Reaction of 3: he only gets one success so he writes down one his single highest die roll: 5. So in this case Joe goes twice, once at initiative count 11, then on count 9, then Bob goes once at 5, then Joe goes once at 4.

Advantages:
-It incorporates the Success Test mechanics, which everyone already knows, rather than a whole new mechanic of adding an attribute value to dice that have no Rule of 6 applied.
-Natural staggering of initiative passes; notice how Joe went twice before Bob this time, but it could have been different depending on how the dice fell.
-Not *that* much different from the current system in terms of who gets how many passes. Joe cyber will typically get around 4 successes, meaning three passes, while a mundane will usually flicker between one and (possibly) two passes.

Possible Complication:
-Wounds now affect the number of passes you get in a big way. If Joe had even one light wound in the above example, he would have lost one of his initiative passes. This could be a good thing as it makes wounds even more debilitating, but then it could be very bad for that same reason.
(EDIT)-THere will be a lot more ties in initiative, as the counts will usually not spread out that much. This could potentially slow down combat if several people with the same Reaction score try to go on the same initiative count and have to roll randomly to figure out who goes first.

Sound reasonable?
GrinderTheTroll
What's so wrong with the rather long-standing Initiative system? IMO, it was one the best Initiative systems I've used that didn't have bizzare rules about attacks and timing.

I like it being more random (with base reaction pushing up your chances of having consistantly more actions) than treated like a skill as you are proposing.
Kagetenshi
I don't think it's broken. A reversion to SR2 rules might make more sense, but for a combination of sensibility and game-balance, SR3 init is very much what I'd like to see.

~J
Smed
I like the idea. Seems simple enough.
Charon
I'd like initiative to be as in D&D. I mean you roll once to see who goes first and then things become cyclical for the rest of the fight. No new additional initiatove each rounds saves a lot of time.

I would do it in SR3 except that with the actual system, a wired character who rolls low would get royally screwed if he had to keep that initiative for the whole fight. Some character are supposed to get more action in less time than others. And some player have so much variation on their initiative that they can easily get between 2 and 4 actions each round! As a result, a wired reflex 3 PC who gets unlucky and rolled 17 faced with an unchipped opponent who got lucky and rolle 11 will end up going first and then just alternate attacks with his opponent for the rest of the fight. After 500K and 5 points of essence, I could see the wired PC foam at the mouth at such a revolting development...

I could see a system where you roll to see who goes first on phase 0 and then you add a speed factor to see when you can act next and when. Let's say a PC with a speed factor of 6 and another one with a speed factor of 11. The first one would act on phase 6, 12, 18, 24 etc. while the second would act on phase 11, 22, 33 etc.

You keep going until the fight is over.

The only problem would be determining when dice pool refresh. It could simply be at 25, 50, 75 etc. Or something like that.

It is clear in that scenario who is chipped and who is not, but it doesn't require rolling regularly to prove it.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Charon)
I could see a system where you roll to see who goes first and then you add a speed factor to see when you can act next and when. Let's say a PC with a speed factor of 6 and another one with a speed factor of 11. The first one would act on phase 6, 12, 18, 24 etc. while the second would act on phase 11, 22, 33 etc.
You keep going until the fight is over.

This is exactly the type of thing I was talking about NOT wanting. It adds additional things to worry about during combat.

D&D vs. SR initiative, I'll take SR.
Eyeless Blond
Well, that's another way of doing it Charon. The problem with that system though (the same with the current initiative rules) is that the way it's set up is inherently different from every other test in the game. Nowhere else do you take an attribute and add random number to is. In fact, those die rolls are strange, non open-ended numbers to boot, where the rule of 6 and the rule of 1s don't apply. Everything about SR3 initiative right down to the base dice mechanic is unique to initiative, which makes it very hard to pick up immediately, even if after a couple of weeks it's just as natural as rolling a skill test.

That's where my system shines. The test you're making is a Success Test, against a TN of 4 modified by wound modifiers. Everything about the test is the same as for a majority of skill tests. The only thing that's even slightly new is the whole writing down of numeric results thing, and that is done elsewhere in the rules as well (area effect spells, for instance.)
Charon
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
This is exactly the type of thing I was talking about NOT wanting.

Lucky for me then that what you want isn't a criteria to judge an idea. Neither is what I want, for that matter, so don't take it personally. wink.gif

QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
It adds additional things to worry about during combat.


I could see an argument about preferring the randomness of the actual method.

But I can't conceive how my sugestion adds things to worry about during combat. In the current system, you roll and then count down to see who acts when. Until you reach 0 and then substract 10 on the highest initiative and count down again. Until you reach 0 on the highest initiative and then you roll again.

What I'm proposing is just rolling to see who goes first and then counting up. Until it's over. It's not exactly rocket science. It probably has a few flaws I haven't thought of yet, but complexity is not one of them.
GrinderTheTroll
"If it aint broke then don't fix it" is my line of thinking, hell I'm still not sure SR4 is even a good idea.
Charon
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Well, that's another way of doing it Charon. The problem with that system though (the same with the current initiative rules) is that the way it's set up is inherently different from every other test in the game.

(...)

That's where my system shines. The test you're making is a Success Test, against a TN of 4 modified by wound modifiers.

That's true. But while streamlining a system is all good and well, you can leave some leeway for ease of use or flavor.

Consider D&D. Sure it's D20. But the damage and HP mechanics aren't D20. Nor is the spell system. But the HP system is just too damn easy to use while the spell system is a sacred cow of D&D. It wouldn't be D&D with a drain resistance type of magic.

What you propose is a variant on the system of 7th sea. What you propose could easily create situations where a PC has 5 or more actions while another has none (fumbling is drastically more likely for low reaction PC). This would exacerbate the difference between wired and unwired character while SR3 has made some effort to close the gap. It also has the drawback of being even longer to calculate than the current initiative system.

You are 100% correct in asserting that it is better integrated in the overall mechanics of SR, though. I just don't feel that it's a problem to leave a few oddballs mechanics if they are simple and work better, IMO. Personnally, I prefer the current system than what you are suggesting mostly for expediency reasons. I want fight to be shorter, not longer.

Jrayjoker
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
"If it aint broke then don't fix it" is my line of thinking, hell I'm still not sure SR4 is even a good idea.

So you've said...

With regard to initiative, I prefer the SR3 method above any I have played with so far.
Eyeless Blond
It's not broke for you because you've been using it for awhile. For a newbie just coming into the system it's very, very broke, for two reasons:

-huge, gigantic rules bloat, spread across several poorly cross-referenced and indexed books. I mean, sure, *you* can tell me where the Lockpicking rules are (SOTA '63) or where the rules for ruthenium are (M&M), or even where the rules for skillsofts are (Cannon Companion) because you've read all the books, but a new person has no idea where to start
-mechanics that have no qualms about switching between completely different and contradicting dice mechanics for no good reason. First off, you have Success Tests and Open Tests, which are similar but different enough to confuse new players. Then you have stuff like Initiative, which is a completely different dice mechanic and ignores the rules common to both Success Tests and Open Tests.
Charon
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
"If it aint broke then don't fix it" is my line of thinking, hell I'm still not sure SR4 is even a good idea.

I'm more of the ''If it ain't broke, don't break it. But if you can improve it, DO IT'' school of thought, myself.

AD&D wasn't really broke. I had a lot of fun playing that game. But I like D&D 3e even more.

Many areas of SR can be improved and if the designer succeed, I'll be a happy camper. Yes, even if the initiative system looks nothing like what I suggested! But if SR4 turns out inferior to SR3, I'll go passive-agressive on the designer's ass... grinbig.gif
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
It's not broke for you because you've been using it for awhile. For a newbie just coming into the system it's very, very broke, for two reasons:

I was referring specifically to Initiative, not SR3 as a whole.
Eyeless Blond
So am I. As it stands rules for initiative are spread over the entire SR3 book, and are scattered through several other books. Where is the rule saying that the maximum number of init dice you can have is 5d6? Where are the rules for init of a character using the matrix using pure DNI? trodes? tortise mode? How do you determine the initiative of passengers and when they go in relation to the driver? None of it is in the section on Combat, which is where initiative is discussed in detail. Most of those aren't even in the SR main book.

The second point is self-evident: init is calculated in a way unlike any other test in SR, and it doesn't need to be. Damage and HP are the way they are in D&D only because of legacy reasons and I doubt anyone thought of a better way to do it. Neither of these are good reasons to keep the SR initiative system as it is: holding to stupid traditions only because you're afraid of change is not a valid reason to keep things the same, and ignorance is never a good excuse to do anything.

Not to mention that D&D is simplistic enough that it can deal with a couple of nonsensically different rule mechanics without too much trouble. SR is far more complex, and simply cannot afford to waste new players' time with quirky rules when there's so much else to assimilate.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
So am I. As it stands rules for initiative are spread over the entire SR3 book, and are scattered through several other books. Where is the rule saying that the maximum number of init dice you can have is 5d6?

It doesn't. This isn't a "rule" it just happens to be the max you can get by not violating the various Initiative boosts.


QUOTE
Where are the rules for init of a character using the matrix using pure DNI? trodes? tortise mode? How do you determine the initiative of passengers and when they go in relation to the driver? None of it is in the section on Combat, which is where initiative is discussed in detail. Most of those aren't even in the SR main book.

I think it's great they seperated all the different Initiatives into their respective sections of the book. When I am in Melee, I can care less about Decker, Astral or Vehicle Initiative. How cluttered would each section be it it spoke to each facet of SR? SR is at times, 4 different games: Meatbodies, Rigging, Decking and Magic. Although a nice GM bringing them together would be helpful.

QUOTE
The second point is self-evident: init is calculated in a way unlike any other test in SR, and it doesn't need to be. Damage and HP are the way they are in D&D only because of legacy reasons and I doubt anyone thought of a better way to do it. Neither of these are good reasons to keep the SR initiative system as it is: holding to stupid traditions only because you're afraid of change is not a valid reason to keep things the same, and ignorance is never a good excuse to do anything.

So? It's easy enough to grasp, I am not sure why this is such a bone of contention.

QUOTE
Not to mention that D&D is simplistic enough that it can deal with a couple of nonsensically different rule mechanics without too much trouble. SR is far more complex, and simply cannot afford to waste new players' time with quirky rules when there's so much else to assimilate.

I've played D&D for many years and found myself (for a while) trying to emulate SR in D&D, NOT vice-versa. I came to this conclusion: If you want D&D then play D&D and if you want SR, then play SR.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
So am I. As it stands rules for initiative are spread over the entire SR3 book, and are scattered through several other books. Where is the rule saying that the maximum number of init dice you can have is 5d6?
It doesn't. This isn't a "rule" it just happens to be the max you can get by not violating the various Initiative boosts.
No, no, I'm sure there's an actual rule somewhere saying that there is a maximum of 5 initiative dice, mostly to ensure that the system doesn't break down even if something stacks that wasn't already forseen. It's actually not a bad idea; hell I'd probably tack a rule onto the above saying you can't ever get more than 5 initiative passes without special cyber like move-by-wire which grants you extra actions directly. Unfortunately I can't find it... which come to think of it is exactly my point. nyahnyah.gif

QUOTE
QUOTE
Where are the rules for init of a character using the matrix using pure DNI? trodes? tortise mode? How do you determine the initiative of passengers and when they go in relation to the driver? None of it is in the section on Combat, which is where initiative is discussed in detail. Most of those aren't even in the SR main book.
I think it's great they seperated all the different Initiatives into their respective sections of the book. When I am in Melee, I can care less about Decker, Astral or Vehicle Initiative. How cluttered would each section be it it spoke to each facet of SR? SR is at times, 4 different games: Meatbodies, Rigging, Decking and Magic. Although a nice GM bringing them together would be helpful.
And I would actually perfer to have everything regarding initiative be handled in one place and referred back to as the situation warrants. Another interesting consequence of the above system is that simulating the somewhat faster worlds of astral and matrix bodies is easier too; just lower the base TN to 3 for manifesting spirits/mages and to 2 for purely astral or Matrix bodies.

QUOTE
QUOTE
The second point is self-evident: init is calculated in a way unlike any other test in SR, and it doesn't need to be. Damage and HP are the way they are in D&D only because of legacy reasons and I doubt anyone thought of a better way to do it. Neither of these are good reasons to keep the SR initiative system as it is: holding to stupid traditions only because you're afraid of change is not a valid reason to keep things the same, and ignorance is never a good excuse to do anything.
So? It's easy enough to grasp, I am not sure why this is such a bone of contention.
Mostly because it's just another straw to add to the camel's back, just like Maneuver scores, Open Tests for stealth, etc. If you can make the system just as good and a whole lot more integrated into the overall system, then why not do it?

QUOTE
QUOTE
Not to mention that D&D is simplistic enough that it can deal with a couple of nonsensically different rule mechanics without too much trouble. SR is far more complex, and simply cannot afford to waste new players' time with quirky rules when there's so much else to assimilate.

I've played D&D for many years and found myself (for a while) trying to emulate SR in D&D, NOT vice-versa. I came to this conclusion: If you want D&D then play D&D and if you want SR, then play SR.

Amen to that. smile.gif
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
No, no, I'm sure there's an actual rule somewhere saying that there is a maximum of 5 initiative dice, mostly to ensure that the system doesn't break down even if something stacks that wasn't already forseen.

The 5 init dice "rule" gets mentioned often on this board, but nobody has ever managed to find it mentioned in any SR3 book. You can get well past 5 with drugs anyway.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
No, no, I'm sure there's an actual rule somewhere saying that there is a maximum of 5 initiative dice, mostly to ensure that the system doesn't break down even if something stacks that wasn't already forseen. It's actually not a bad idea; hell I'd probably tack a rule onto the above saying you can't ever get more than 5 initiative passes without special cyber like move-by-wire which grants you extra actions directly. Unfortunately I can't find it... which come to think of it is exactly my point. nyahnyah.gif

If I look in a system with only two rules for a third rule that doesn't exist, I'm not going to find it either.

~J
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
So am I. As it stands rules for initiative are spread over the entire SR3 book, and are scattered through several other books. Where is the rule saying that the maximum number of init dice you can have is 5d6?
It doesn't. This isn't a "rule" it just happens to be the max you can get by not violating the various Initiative boosts.
No, no, I'm sure there's an actual rule somewhere saying that there is a maximum of 5 initiative dice, mostly to ensure that the system doesn't break down even if something stacks that wasn't already forseen. It's actually not a bad idea; hell I'd probably tack a rule onto the above saying you can't ever get more than 5 initiative passes without special cyber like move-by-wire which grants you extra actions directly. Unfortunately I can't find it... which come to think of it is exactly my point. nyahnyah.gif

You can get Boosted 2 (+2 dice) + Synaptic 2 (+2 dice) makes for a total of 5d6 (4 + 1 given die). You could take enough drugs to further pump this to 6d6, I can't remember if their is another drug enhancer that grants more.

There is nothing that says you are limited to dice for Initiative, in fact it says the opposite, SR3:102 under the section, "The Intiative Pass" from the 2nd Paragraph:

QUOTE (SR3.102)
Once all players have acted, the gamemaster subtracts 10 from everyone's Initiative Score.  If a character has a result above zero, that character can act a second time, from highest to lowest.  This is the Second Initiative Pass.  After all chatacers have gone in this pass, the gamemaster again subtracts 10 from all Initiative Scores, and if any character has a score above zero they can go a third time.  This process continues until no characters have an Initiative Score above zero.  At this point the Combat Turn is over and a new Initiative Score is rolled.


This implies there is either no limit on a) Reaction Score or b) Initiative Dice.

I am not sure where you got the "5d6 limit" aside from the limits on combinations I listed above.

I will grant you this: SR3 (and most other 3rd Ed. rule books) are laid-out in a very unfriendly manner and I cannot contest the dire need to re-organize them.
Eyeless Blond
Huh. I swear I read something like that somewhere too... oh, here it is, on p. 24 of Matrix:
QUOTE
However, any decker or security sysop worth his reputation will operate with a hot ASIST and Response Increase and may run by pure DNI with a reality filter for an extra edge. The bonuses provided by these speed options are cumulative, but the maximum cumulative speed bonus in the Matrix is +10 Reaction and +5d6 Initiative.

Of course that only applies to Matrix stuff, but my point stands. How many people didn't know that rule existed? There are literally dozens of rules like that, tucked into corners or supplemental books or sections where you wouldn't expect to find that sort of rule (like the Noticing Magic section which is nowhere near or referenced by the Perception section).
mfb
yeah. here's a good one: try to find the rules for masking wards. if you already know where they are, don't spill--let's see how long it takes someone who doesn't.
GrinderTheTroll
Yeah, a nice cross-reference sheet would be really handy for lots of SR rules.

As far as Initiative goes, I know it would be nice to have a "Grand Unified Initiative Theory" and for the most part it is, with few exceptions like you pointed out. I assumed you where talking about Meatbody Initiative, not Matrix Initiative, I've always looked at each facet of SR as being a "different but similar" ruleset, so I've always expected each to have its own set of exceptions.
hahnsoo
The PDFs are great in this regard. Just search for the term you want, and bingo, it's there.
Luca
that's a further complication. Leave teh initiative system as it is and do not let me roll more damned dices!!!
Why you all guys like to roll all such dices?
Critias
What do you have against rolling so many dice? You keep harping on and on about how horrible it is, but to me the logic is pretty simple -- the better you are at something, the more dice you roll.

I'd rather roll more dice (which improves my odds of rolling something like "average," statistically speaking, and means my character can actual perform in a reliable and predictable manner) than roll one stupid d10 or d20 and hope that my modifiers add up to enough for me to accomplish something.

The more dice you roll, the better your chances of not rolling a stupid critical failure (the dumbest idea ever; one time in ten that a character tries to do something in CP:2020, for instance, it blows up in their face regardless of their skill level and the difficulty involved). Regardless of your basic difficulty being, for instance, a fifteen, and your combined attribute plus skill being a twenty (or higher, it's not hard), if you roll a one you fail despite it mathematically being an auto success. D&D is just as bad, but at least it only happens one time in twenty. It's retarded. In Shadowrun, the more dice you roll the smaller your chances of getting a ton of ones in there, and shooting yourself in the foot while you try to draw a handgun.

The more dice you roll, in short, the less part random stupid luck plays in your ability to do well. The more you can predict what's going to happen, and the more reliable a good character is. You can feel like you know what you're doing, and not every attempt at succeeding feels like a crap shoot. Skill and a character's abilities matters more than luck.
lord_cack
I think an error in judgement to would be to make ANY of the new system work like DnD.

I love Dungeons and Dragons its what I play to get my Fantasy gaming fix. But, it is so watered down. Magic system is for shit, combat is flat and dull (starting with initiative), and ranged combat is even worse than melee. The only thing I like the most is the concept of Feats. I guess you could add that to Shadowrun...but it isn't neccissary.

I have made many attempts to integrate SR3 rules into DnD, it just cant happen. Oil and Water....thats what it is.
lord_cack
Next time...I will preview my post...

I think it would be an error in judgement to make anything in the new system like Dungeons and Dragons...thats what that is supposed to say..
Eyeless Blond
There *is* an Edit button you know. smile.gif
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