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> Wasting spirits...
Zephania
post Mar 18 2005, 11:35 PM
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I was just reading through SR3 looking at spirit combat for another thread and came across an interesting aside at the top of page 188. It says that a character in melee with a spirit can try to use force of will rather than force of arms to take said spirit on.

Now I've always played it using the willpower/charisma thing but does this mean that you don't have to?

I know about the immunity to normal weapons stuff already but I have some really strong characters who could wipe force 5 or 6 spirits if they got to use their normal stuff like twin dikoted cyber spurs. I don't have a problem with this I just need rules fu.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Mar 18 2005, 11:57 PM
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Force of will is an option. Regular attacks that must also deal with the immunities of manifestation are also an option.
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GrinderTheTroll
post Mar 19 2005, 12:09 AM
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You can try and take it on with regular combat, but it has hardened armor (Immunity to Normal Weapons), good-luck trying to get through that by normal means.
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Kanada Ten
post Mar 19 2005, 12:28 AM
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QUOTE
IMMUNITY
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always

The Immunity power gives the critter the equivalent of an Armor Rating equal to twice its Essence for resisting damage from the thing against which it has immunity. In addition, if the Power of the damage does not exceed twice the creature’s Essence, it automatically has no effect.

Immunity to Normal Weapons does not protect against combat spells or weapon foci. Against weapons that inflict elemental damage (such as fire, water cannon, elemental manipulation spells and so on) the effect of the Immunity to Normal Weapons power is halved (Armor Rating equal to Essence). Treat APDS, AVM, and other armor-piercing ammunitions as normal ammunition against creatures with the Immunity to Normal Weapons power.

So, for a force 5 spirit, any attack that has a damaging Power (not base Power) of 11 or more can hurt the spirit. However, that Power is reduced by 10 (unless it is elemental or magical). Still, a powerful melee attack can harm them with enough successes and staging. Remember that a spirit uses its Reaction as its melee skill without penalty.
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Zephania
post Mar 19 2005, 12:32 AM
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Thanks I just needed the clarification as I'd always just used will power.
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Edward
post Mar 19 2005, 04:33 AM
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Remember a force 5 spirit has 10 points of hardened armour against normal attacks.

Is a strength 13 troll with twin cyber spurs and full ambidexterity better of using is char 2 will 3, or just shredding the thing old style.

Edward
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mfb
post Mar 19 2005, 04:46 AM
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shredding it with his spurs, definitely. he's going to have massive dice on his attacks, and he can jack up the damage code with extra successes.
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Kanada Ten
post Mar 19 2005, 04:38 AM
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What's the troll's melee skill and level of ambidexterity? What type of spirit?
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Zephania
post Mar 19 2005, 12:12 PM
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Cyber implant combat 6, strength 16, twin dikoted spurs so multiply the strength by 1.5 and you can shred most things. Wouldn't have thought you'd need ambidexterity though?
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Edward
post Mar 19 2005, 02:24 PM
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QUOTE (Zephania)
Cyber implant combat 6, strength 16, twin dikoted spurs so multiply the strength by 1.5 and you can shred most things. Wouldn't have thought you'd need ambidexterity though?

Ambidexterity at an appropriate level will give you 1.5skill for the attack.

More properly skill +half of hand skill and being ambidextrous you use your primary skill as your off hand skill.

Edward
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Mr Cjelli
post Mar 20 2005, 01:33 AM
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I don't have my books handy, but I'm pretty sure that when using force of will a reasonably powerful spirit will still have the upper hand. Very high powered guns, dikoted everything, and absurd melee skills will work in some instances. Ultimately however, the best ways to kill a spirit are with a magician, an adept with astral perception and killing hands, or another spirit.
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toturi
post Mar 20 2005, 01:47 AM
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The spirit can't affect you if you are physical and it is not. If it is physical, an adept with KHs can take it down (especially if he is a melee adept).
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BishopMcQ
post Mar 20 2005, 05:11 AM
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Also note that dual natured critters, such as ghouls, shifters and the royally screwed Changelings, can beat the spirit down with any normal unarmed skill since they are sharing astral space and the immunity only works on the physical plane.
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Sandoval Smith
post Mar 20 2005, 02:54 PM
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While true, that still doesn't makes taking on a fire elemental in hand to hand any more fun.
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toturi
post Mar 20 2005, 03:02 PM
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OK, Distance Strike too then.
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Fortune
post Mar 20 2005, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (toturi)
Distance Strike

That's one Power I would love to see disappear in SR4.
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lodestar
post Mar 21 2005, 06:52 PM
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Any particular reason why?
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Ombre
post Mar 21 2005, 08:20 PM
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Using force of will is an option but remember it's a melee attack, so the spirit gets to counterattack with its reaction plus any remaining Combat Pool dice...
Of course, if it gets hit, it can only resist damage with its Force without any Pool die....
Tough , depending on the kind of spirit...a viable option for someone with high Willpower agaisnt Earth Elementals and Spirits of the Lands, but a tactic I wouldn't advise against a Fire Elemental or an Air Elemental...
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Da9iel
post Mar 21 2005, 10:49 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune Posted: Mar 20 2005 @ 09:05 AM)

QUOTE (toturi)
Distance Strike

That's one Power I would love to see disappear in SR4.

QUOTE (lodestar Posted: Mar 21 2005 @ 12:52 PM)

Any particular reason why?

I'd love to see that and any other power that isn't entirely internal to the adept removed. Isn't the whole point of an adept that he or she has turned the magic completely internal? That's why there's no signature when they use their powers.
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Tanka
post Mar 21 2005, 11:39 PM
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I'd like to see it gone just for the fact that it allows an Adept to go "Bang!" without a gun. (Distance attacks without a distance weapon. Spells are a different thing altogether.)
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Fortune
post Mar 22 2005, 01:48 AM
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I agree with the reasoning of both of the previous posters, although my main reason is that of Da9iel, in that Adept Powers (in my opinion) should basically be internalized.
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DrJest
post Mar 22 2005, 08:49 AM
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Ah for the days when spirits were immune to guns, but anyone with the 'nads to step up and duke it out with them hand to hand could bitchslap them back to the Astral.

EDIT: And yeah, Distance Strike is just so, so... Streetfighter. RYOUKEN! Blech.
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