I was just reading through SR3 looking at spirit combat for another thread and came across an interesting aside at the top of page 188. It says that a character in melee with a spirit can try to use force of will rather than force of arms to take said spirit on.

Now I've always played it using the willpower/charisma thing but does this mean that you don't have to?

I know about the immunity to normal weapons stuff already but I have some really strong characters who could wipe force 5 or 6 spirits if they got to use their normal stuff like twin dikoted cyber spurs. I don't have a problem with this I just need rules fu.

Force of will is an option. Regular attacks that must also deal with the immunities of manifestation are also an option.

You can try and take it on with regular combat, but it has hardened armor (Immunity to Normal Weapons), good-luck trying to get through that by normal means.

Thanks I just needed the clarification as I'd always just used will power.

Remember a force 5 spirit has 10 points of hardened armour against normal attacks.

Is a strength 13 troll with twin cyber spurs and full ambidexterity better of using is char 2 will 3, or just shredding the thing old style.

Edward

shredding it with his spurs, definitely. he's going to have massive dice on his attacks, and he can jack up the damage code with extra successes.

What's the troll's melee skill and level of ambidexterity? What type of spirit?

Cyber implant combat 6, strength 16, twin dikoted spurs so multiply the strength by 1.5 and you can shred most things. Wouldn't have thought you'd need ambidexterity though?

I don't have my books handy, but I'm pretty sure that when using force of will a reasonably powerful spirit will still have the upper hand. Very high powered guns, dikoted everything, and absurd melee skills will work in some instances. Ultimately however, the best ways to kill a spirit are with a magician, an adept with astral perception and killing hands, or another spirit.

The spirit can't affect you if you are physical and it is not. If it is physical, an adept with KHs can take it down (especially if he is a melee adept).

Also note that dual natured critters, such as ghouls, shifters and the royally screwed Changelings, can beat the spirit down with any normal unarmed skill since they are sharing astral space and the immunity only works on the physical plane.

While true, that still doesn't makes taking on a fire elemental in hand to hand any more fun.

OK, Distance Strike too then.

Any particular reason why?

Using force of will is an option but remember it's a melee attack, so the spirit gets to counterattack with its reaction plus any remaining Combat Pool dice...
Of course, if it gets hit, it can only resist damage with its Force without any Pool die....
Tough , depending on the kind of spirit...a viable option for someone with high Willpower agaisnt Earth Elementals and Spirits of the Lands, but a tactic I wouldn't advise against a Fire Elemental or an Air Elemental...

I'd like to see it gone just for the fact that it allows an Adept to go "Bang!" without a gun. (Distance attacks without a distance weapon. Spells are a different thing altogether.)

I agree with the reasoning of both of the previous posters, although my main reason is that of Da9iel, in that Adept Powers (in my opinion) should basically be internalized.

Ah for the days when spirits were immune to guns, but anyone with the 'nads to step up and duke it out with them hand to hand could bitchslap them back to the Astral.

EDIT: And yeah, Distance Strike is just so, so... Streetfighter. RYOUKEN! Blech.