 Riggers |
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 Mar 24 2005, 10:50 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Württemberg, AGS Member No.: 2,068  |
As I see it, there has been no real mention of Riggers in 4th Edition. So what about them? Are they gonna be merged with the hackers and be generel electronics specialists?
That's what I'd like to know in the upcoming blog, ye hear me? |
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Mar 24 2005, 11:02 PM
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#2
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i think riggers will share a lot of territory with hackers, but that they'll be distinct enough to remain their own archtype. most hackers will probably be able to tinker with drones and drone networks, but they won't be nearly as competent with them as riggers, nor be able to take them to the same level as riggers.
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Mar 24 2005, 11:19 PM
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#3
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Well, if hackers need not pay huge prices for decks and programs that might leave a lot more room for riggers to be hackers - not to mention all the bonuses that come merging from both (drones with mechanical arms for electronics b&r, cyberless tactical data sharing, CCSS augmented reality mergers).
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Mar 24 2005, 11:58 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
To be honest, the few times I've seen Deckers played they almost always doubled up as riggers as well. If that's the experience of more players than just me, I'd imagine the new edition will acknowledge this trend.
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Mar 25 2005, 12:20 AM
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#5
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Well, my rigger is almost entirely vehicle-oriented. She can handle computers as well, but the mere fact that being a drone rigger in a fairly high-powered campaign (where losing one drone a run is the norm) is a huge money sink prevented her from ever getting herself any kind of useful cyberdeck. That and the fact we already have a rather competent decker (or at least, that's what Abel led us to believe he is).
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Mar 25 2005, 01:28 AM
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#6
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
Problem. VCR is horrifically expensive in both :nuyen: and Essence.
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Mar 25 2005, 01:41 AM
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#7
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
That applies only to starting chars, though. If you plan to play a campaign with average to high karma level, you can well start your char weak in two departments and raise him to be a jack-of-all-trades. requires more Karma (and :nuyen:, but if you have the time, it's well worth the while). |
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Mar 25 2005, 01:55 AM
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#8
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Essence, sorta, but deckers don't have much else to spend it on. Cash, hell no. VCR 1s and 2s are dirt cheap, and 3s are worth every penny. ~J |
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Mar 25 2005, 02:07 AM
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#9
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Well, I can see the problem when dealing with a char who has to afford a cyberdeck too and wants a VCR3 ... but yeah, not much of a problem really. And all a Decker needs is .2 Essence for a datajack, with about 1 set aside for encephalon, memory, and math SPU. A VCR2 and a smartlink really fits in, too, even with off-the-shelf ware.
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Mar 25 2005, 02:08 AM
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#10
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Encephalon and memory are both needless. Get a second datajack and a pocket secretary for the memory; encephalon you could consider, but it's expensive and doesn't do all that much.
~J |
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Mar 25 2005, 02:11 AM
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#11
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Another possibility to consider: the whole point of the Vehicle Control Rig is that it ursurps the organic processing power of your hindbrain to squeeze near organic levels of performance out of the vehicle's engine and drivetrain (basically by tricking your hindbrain into thinking it's still controlling your heartrate, respiration, adrenal gland production, and so on, when it's really regulating transmission gearing, fuel/air mix, valve timings and the like).
Suppose by 2070, processer technology had advanced to a point where optical chips have finally outpaced what an organic brain equipped with a control rig implant can do? If that's the case, no one would have to go under the knife to get a vehicle control rig implanted, because it no longer offers any benefits over full computerized control. Don't get me wrong, I'm not sure I like the idea of the new system's "Hackers" being a fusion of Deckers and Riggers, but I could easily see where they could justify it. |
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Mar 25 2005, 02:16 AM
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#12
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Well the Task Pool is pretty useful for programming tests, which is what really sets the dedicated decker apart from the guy who just fiddles with slicing into systems. |
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Mar 25 2005, 02:19 AM
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#13
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Sure, but do these chips also come at a cost comparable to what you get when buying a brain with a VCR in it? Also, a VCR offers reaction enhancement, too.
Well, excluding total control, of course. I don't see why anyone would trust an AI after the arcology debacle (or SF, presumably) over a metahuman. Remember Deus' drones? Would you, as a denizen of the 6th world, feel safe being guarded by things that are very much like these things? Hunh? I surely wouldn't. Noone knows who has hacked into them, after all. |
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Mar 25 2005, 09:36 PM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
It is all about the edge. If you don't have everything that can give an edge, you may not come home alive. Now I do not play deckers, but as I recall the math CPUs were needed as well. |
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Mar 25 2005, 09:41 PM
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#15
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Math SPUs are both useful and cheap. With regard to edge, it does you no good to have all the edges in the Matrix when that guy with the Predator comes knocking.
~J |
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Mar 25 2005, 09:55 PM
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#16
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The Math SPU was mentioned in the post right before the one you quoted. ;) That's definitely a given, and nobody (in hos right mind) would argue about its usefulness. |
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Mar 25 2005, 09:50 PM
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#17
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I wonder how many hits are related to Dumpshock when someone Googles the word Predator. :D |
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Mar 25 2005, 10:31 PM
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#18
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
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Mar 26 2005, 03:37 AM
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#19
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
What's the old quote? "Faster, Cheaper, Smarter, God I hate the technology curve!" (Something like that anyway. You know, last month, I found out that the computer I had when I started playing Shadowrun, can now be emulated by someone's webpage applet. I feel old.) That's exactly what I'm saying. Processing power tends to grow at astonishing rates (A fact that the SotA Upgrade rules for deck components were supposed to reflect but never adequately captured the feel of, IMO). At some point, it'll get to the point where the cost of a hardware/software bundle that can duplicate the processing power of a human brain with a VCR implanted is cheaper than the cost of implanting the VCR in the first place. While increases in processing power will also mean smaller, cheaper, more efficient VCRs, the cost of the surgery itself can only scale so far. If FanPro wanted to make a case for merging the rigger and the decker into their new "Hacker" archetype, they could easily decide that that point was reached sometime in their 5 year plot blackout between '65 and '70.
A reaction enhancement that comes straight from the integration between the brain's processing power and the equipment being controlled. The more of the hindbrain the VCR taps into, the higher the essence cost, but also, the more processing power that can be devoted to getting the equipment to respond in exactly the manner desired, the instant the thought is formed, hence the resulting enhancements to reaction. But, given the base assumption of the premise, that it's now possible to have a hardware/software package who's processing power duplicates the effective processing power of a human brain with the various levels of VCR installed, then it comes down to how fast a Direct Neural Interface could route commands to that emulated VCR. One need only look to cyberdecks to see how fast a brain can issue commands to a computer interface. What's the max init a decker can get? Response Increase 3 + Hot ASIST + Reality Filter equals 5d6, if I'm remembering the numbers right. (Even if we discount any accelerated "Matrix Time", that's still an impressive number, and certainly fast enough to issue control commands to something that emulates at an effective 3d6 reaction in Meat Space).
It's not an AI. It's merely a piece of equipment that emulates the effect of having a VCR implanted into your own brain, nothing more. It'd be exactly analogous to how a Decker uses his MPCP to take care of the all the data manipulation that'd be needed to run a Persona Icon in the matrix. |
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Mar 26 2005, 03:55 AM
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#20
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'm still not seeing how your magical chips are going to do anything like a VCR. Expanded and enhanced drones, sure, but a replacement of the VCR? Wha?
Edit: Ok, I see what you're saying, and I disagree heartily. That being said, I'm going to go away until I can effectively express why I disagree, 'cause the words just ain't comin'. ~J |
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Mar 26 2005, 03:58 AM
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#21
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I think mainly the problem is that datajacks simply don't read subconscious signals, they don't translate impulses into action. A datajack, in 2060 anyway, allows one to use a DNI interface, which is something like a mental keyboard or control panel. You can't record or even read a person's sight or senses with only a datajack (thought you can thought to a degree.
A VCR, on the other hand, uses innate thought as the driving force in essence turning the vehicle into the rigger's body and taking cues, subconscious and innate cues. Then the vehicle adaptation translates that into processes. A VCR is in effect a specialized simrig. However, I think something like a simrig must be developed for wireless Matrix to integrate reality and simsense data, making the Matrix more like an innate process. Thus opening the door for emulated VCRs, Smartlinks and everything else. |
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Mar 26 2005, 05:11 AM
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#22
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
I belive that there's at least some level of innate thought that can be read through the datajack, as all the depictions of persona iconography that I've seen in both the sourcebooks and the fiction I've read have the persona icon's movements seamlessly controlled by the decker (When Renny got his Angel icon in VR1.0, he didn't w-a-s-d on a virtual keyboard for movement for instance). Now, if you want to tell me I'm reading too much into it, I might be inclined to belive you. However, my first question would be, how does an Ultraviolet Host work? (You know, thanks to deckers, the poor li'l datajack gets saddled with doing a lot more than it should have to. Makes me wonder if back in SR1 days FASA should have come up with some sort of headware required to be able to use a cyberdeck.)
At the very least. I wish I had a link to Jon Szeto's article from TSS #6 "The Man-Machine Interface" which was adapted from material that he submitted for the Rigger Sourcebooks but never got published. I know since it's cut material, it can't be considered Canon, but it's great background for some of the thought processes that were in the author's mind on the subject of why the Control Rig grants the bonuses it does. It's exactly what I'm basing my crackpot theories on. (The funny thing, is here I am coming up with theories on how they're going to explain rigger/decker fusion, when #1. No official word on such a merging has come from on high, and #2. I'm still not convinced such a merge would be a good thing.)
That's what my gut instinct is telling me to expect from Matrix 2.0 as well. I figure that either they'd have to have found a way of streamlining the simrig process so that it now comes in an implant that's as essence-friendly if not more so as the typical datajack, or they've had a massive advance in 'trode tech.
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Mar 26 2005, 06:35 PM
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#23
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Yep, though it's not clear how, but the datajack can read thought, as shown with external transducers. I imagine that's how the cyberdeck works, translating conscious thought into action. For some reason that requires less than .2 essence, but to record sight is a minimum of .5 and that's not even simsense level recording. |
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Mar 28 2005, 11:49 AM
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#24
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Taken from Rob's blog at www.srrpg.com:
Q. Will riggers be combined with deckers/hackers? A. Yes, we are removing the distinction between them. This does not mean riggers will go away — there will still be hackers who specialize in drones, vehicle operations, or security systems. But the protocols, technology, and game mechanics behind them will be the same. |
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Mar 28 2005, 02:54 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 187 Joined: 30-April 04 Member No.: 6,294 |
Well I guess that's that answered. Jeez, when they say streamlined, they really mean streamlined.
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