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Toa
As I see it, there has been no real mention of Riggers in 4th Edition. So what about them? Are they gonna be merged with the hackers and be generel electronics specialists?

That's what I'd like to know in the upcoming blog, ye hear me?
mfb
i think riggers will share a lot of territory with hackers, but that they'll be distinct enough to remain their own archtype. most hackers will probably be able to tinker with drones and drone networks, but they won't be nearly as competent with them as riggers, nor be able to take them to the same level as riggers.
Kanada Ten
Well, if hackers need not pay huge prices for decks and programs that might leave a lot more room for riggers to be hackers - not to mention all the bonuses that come merging from both (drones with mechanical arms for electronics b&r, cyberless tactical data sharing, CCSS augmented reality mergers).
DrJest
To be honest, the few times I've seen Deckers played they almost always doubled up as riggers as well. If that's the experience of more players than just me, I'd imagine the new edition will acknowledge this trend.
hermit
Well, my rigger is almost entirely vehicle-oriented. She can handle computers as well, but the mere fact that being a drone rigger in a fairly high-powered campaign (where losing one drone a run is the norm) is a huge money sink prevented her from ever getting herself any kind of useful cyberdeck. That and the fact we already have a rather competent decker (or at least, that's what Abel led us to believe he is).
Penta
Problem. VCR is horrifically expensive in both nuyen.gif and Essence.
hermit
QUOTE
Problem. VCR is horrifically expensive in both nuyen.gif and Essence.

That applies only to starting chars, though. If you plan to play a campaign with average to high karma level, you can well start your char weak in two departments and raise him to be a jack-of-all-trades. requires more Karma (and nuyen.gif, but if you have the time, it's well worth the while).
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Penta)
Problem. VCR is horrifically expensive in both nuyen.gif and Essence.

Essence, sorta, but deckers don't have much else to spend it on. Cash, hell no. VCR 1s and 2s are dirt cheap, and 3s are worth every penny.

~J
hermit
Well, I can see the problem when dealing with a char who has to afford a cyberdeck too and wants a VCR3 ... but yeah, not much of a problem really. And all a Decker needs is .2 Essence for a datajack, with about 1 set aside for encephalon, memory, and math SPU. A VCR2 and a smartlink really fits in, too, even with off-the-shelf ware.
Kagetenshi
Encephalon and memory are both needless. Get a second datajack and a pocket secretary for the memory; encephalon you could consider, but it's expensive and doesn't do all that much.

~J
RunnerPaul
Another possibility to consider: the whole point of the Vehicle Control Rig is that it ursurps the organic processing power of your hindbrain to squeeze near organic levels of performance out of the vehicle's engine and drivetrain (basically by tricking your hindbrain into thinking it's still controlling your heartrate, respiration, adrenal gland production, and so on, when it's really regulating transmission gearing, fuel/air mix, valve timings and the like).

Suppose by 2070, processer technology had advanced to a point where optical chips have finally outpaced what an organic brain equipped with a control rig implant can do? If that's the case, no one would have to go under the knife to get a vehicle control rig implanted, because it no longer offers any benefits over full computerized control.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not sure I like the idea of the new system's "Hackers" being a fusion of Deckers and Riggers, but I could easily see where they could justify it.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Encephalon and memory are both needless. Get a second datajack and a pocket secretary for the memory; encephalon you could consider, but it's expensive and doesn't do all that much.

~J

Well the Task Pool is pretty useful for programming tests, which is what really sets the dedicated decker apart from the guy who just fiddles with slicing into systems.
hermit
QUOTE
Suppose by 2070, processer technology had advanced to a point where optical chips have finally outpaced what an organic brain equipped with a control rig implant can do?

Sure, but do these chips also come at a cost comparable to what you get when buying a brain with a VCR in it? Also, a VCR offers reaction enhancement, too.

QUOTE
because it no longer offers any benefits over full computerized control.

Well, excluding total control, of course. I don't see why anyone would trust an AI after the arcology debacle (or SF, presumably) over a metahuman. Remember Deus' drones? Would you, as a denizen of the 6th world, feel safe being guarded by things that are very much like these things? Hunh? I surely wouldn't. Noone knows who has hacked into them, after all.
Cynic project
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Encephalon ...are ... needless....encephalon you could consider, but it's expensive and doesn't do all that much.

It is all about the edge. If you don't have everything that can give an edge, you may not come home alive.

Now I do not play deckers, but as I recall the math CPUs were needed as well.
Kagetenshi
Math SPUs are both useful and cheap. With regard to edge, it does you no good to have all the edges in the Matrix when that guy with the Predator comes knocking.

~J
Fortune
QUOTE (Cynic project)
Now I do not play deckers, but as I recall the math CPUs were needed as well


The Math SPU was mentioned in the post right before the one you quoted. wink.gif

That's definitely a given, and nobody (in hos right mind) would argue about its usefulness.
Fortune
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Mar 26 2005, 08:41 AM)
... when that guy with the Predator comes knocking.

I wonder how many hits are related to Dumpshock when someone Googles the word Predator. biggrin.gif
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (Fortune @ Mar 25 2005, 04:50 PM)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Mar 26 2005, 08:41 AM)
... when that guy with the Predator comes knocking.

I wonder how many hits are related to Dumpshock when someone Googles the word Predator. biggrin.gif

360 of 6,730,000

And this made that search worthwhile.

And this Ares Predator, too.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (hermit)
Sure, but do these chips also come at a cost comparable to what you get when buying a brain with a VCR in it?

What's the old quote? "Faster, Cheaper, Smarter, God I hate the technology curve!"
(Something like that anyway. You know, last month, I found out that the computer I had when I started playing Shadowrun, can now be emulated by someone's webpage applet. I feel old.)

That's exactly what I'm saying. Processing power tends to grow at astonishing rates (A fact that the SotA Upgrade rules for deck components were supposed to reflect but never adequately captured the feel of, IMO).

At some point, it'll get to the point where the cost of a hardware/software bundle that can duplicate the processing power of a human brain with a VCR implanted is cheaper than the cost of implanting the VCR in the first place. While increases in processing power will also mean smaller, cheaper, more efficient VCRs, the cost of the surgery itself can only scale so far.

If FanPro wanted to make a case for merging the rigger and the decker into their new "Hacker" archetype, they could easily decide that that point was reached sometime in their 5 year plot blackout between '65 and '70.

QUOTE
Also, a VCR offers reaction enhancement, too.

A reaction enhancement that comes straight from the integration between the brain's processing power and the equipment being controlled. The more of the hindbrain the VCR taps into, the higher the essence cost, but also, the more processing power that can be devoted to getting the equipment to respond in exactly the manner desired, the instant the thought is formed, hence the resulting enhancements to reaction.

But, given the base assumption of the premise, that it's now possible to have a hardware/software package who's processing power duplicates the effective processing power of a human brain with the various levels of VCR installed, then it comes down to how fast a Direct Neural Interface could route commands to that emulated VCR. One need only look to cyberdecks to see how fast a brain can issue commands to a computer interface. What's the max init a decker can get? Response Increase 3 + Hot ASIST + Reality Filter equals 5d6, if I'm remembering the numbers right. (Even if we discount any accelerated "Matrix Time", that's still an impressive number, and certainly fast enough to issue control commands to something that emulates at an effective 3d6 reaction in Meat Space).

QUOTE
QUOTE
because it no longer offers any benefits over full computerized control.

Well, excluding total control, of course. I don't see why anyone would trust an AI after the arcology debacle (or SF, presumably) over a metahuman.


It's not an AI. It's merely a piece of equipment that emulates the effect of having a VCR implanted into your own brain, nothing more. It'd be exactly analogous to how a Decker uses his MPCP to take care of the all the data manipulation that'd be needed to run a Persona Icon in the matrix.
Kagetenshi
I'm still not seeing how your magical chips are going to do anything like a VCR. Expanded and enhanced drones, sure, but a replacement of the VCR? Wha?

Edit: Ok, I see what you're saying, and I disagree heartily. That being said, I'm going to go away until I can effectively express why I disagree, 'cause the words just ain't comin'.

~J
Kanada Ten
I think mainly the problem is that datajacks simply don't read subconscious signals, they don't translate impulses into action. A datajack, in 2060 anyway, allows one to use a DNI interface, which is something like a mental keyboard or control panel. You can't record or even read a person's sight or senses with only a datajack (thought you can thought to a degree.

A VCR, on the other hand, uses innate thought as the driving force in essence turning the vehicle into the rigger's body and taking cues, subconscious and innate cues. Then the vehicle adaptation translates that into processes. A VCR is in effect a specialized simrig.

However, I think something like a simrig must be developed for wireless Matrix to integrate reality and simsense data, making the Matrix more like an innate process. Thus opening the door for emulated VCRs, Smartlinks and everything else.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
I think mainly the problem is that datajacks simply don't read subconscious signals, they don't translate impulses into action.
QUOTE
A VCR, on the other hand, uses innate thought as the driving force in essence turning the vehicle into the rigger's body and taking cues, subconscious and innate cues.
I belive that there's at least some level of innate thought that can be read through the datajack, as all the depictions of persona iconography that I've seen in both the sourcebooks and the fiction I've read have the persona icon's movements seamlessly controlled by the decker (When Renny got his Angel icon in VR1.0, he didn't w-a-s-d on a virtual keyboard for movement for instance). Now, if you want to tell me I'm reading too much into it, I might be inclined to belive you. However, my first question would be, how does an Ultraviolet Host work?

(You know, thanks to deckers, the poor li'l datajack gets saddled with doing a lot more than it should have to. Makes me wonder if back in SR1 days FASA should have come up with some sort of headware required to be able to use a cyberdeck.)


QUOTE
A VCR is in effect a specialized simrig.
At the very least. I wish I had a link to Jon Szeto's article from TSS #6 "The Man-Machine Interface" which was adapted from material that he submitted for the Rigger Sourcebooks but never got published. I know since it's cut material, it can't be considered Canon, but it's great background for some of the thought processes that were in the author's mind on the subject of why the Control Rig grants the bonuses it does. It's exactly what I'm basing my crackpot theories on.

(The funny thing, is here I am coming up with theories on how they're going to explain rigger/decker fusion, when #1. No official word on such a merging has come from on high, and #2. I'm still not convinced such a merge would be a good thing.)


QUOTE
However, I think something like a simrig must be developed for wireless Matrix to integrate reality and simsense data, making the Matrix more like an innate process.  Thus opening the door for emulated VCRs, Smartlinks and everything else.
That's what my gut instinct is telling me to expect from Matrix 2.0 as well. I figure that either they'd have to have found a way of streamlining the simrig process so that it now comes in an implant that's as essence-friendly if not more so as the typical datajack, or they've had a massive advance in 'trode tech.

Kanada Ten
QUOTE
I belive that there's at least some level of innate thought that can be read through the datajack...

Yep, though it's not clear how, but the datajack can read thought, as shown with external transducers. I imagine that's how the cyberdeck works, translating conscious thought into action. For some reason that requires less than .2 essence, but to record sight is a minimum of .5 and that's not even simsense level recording.
Grinder
Taken from Rob's blog at www.srrpg.com:

Q. Will riggers be combined with deckers/hackers?
A. Yes, we are removing the distinction between them. This does not mean riggers will go away — there will still be hackers who specialize in drones, vehicle operations, or security systems. But the protocols, technology, and game mechanics behind them will be the same.
Tal
Well I guess that's that answered. Jeez, when they say streamlined, they really mean streamlined.
hermit
Hmmm ... they mean "we cut away all the less popular archetypes so everyone will now have to play mages or sams", it seems.

Great work. nyahnyah.gif
Demonseed Elite
Holy off-base assumptions, Batman!
Tal
Somehow I doubt that's what they meant. A complete restructure of the two archetypes to make them more playable, yes. Cut, no.
Toa
QUOTE (Toa)
That's what I'd like to know in the upcoming blog, ye hear me?

A "thank you" to Rob Boyle for my wish that has been granted! smile.gif
DrJest
QUOTE (hermit)
Hmmm ... they mean "we cut away all the less popular archetypes so everyone will now have to play mages or sams", it seems.

Uh... sorry, I don't understand, you get that how? AFAICT, hacker has become a general "over-term" for the techie side of the world, covering deckers and all forms of rigger. I don't see anyone saying they don't exist any more - quite the opposite, is the impression I got, since the idea is to make them more attractive to players, not less. Which, hey, is a good thing, they've always been uber-rare in my groups.
hermit
Yeah, but I read Demonseed's and Patrick's posts only after posting this. Happens when a discussion is going on in several threads at a time. My apologies.

And as I understand it, the over-term 'hacker' (ill-choosen as it may be) comes with a streamlining of all technical rules into one template. While I still have massive doupts about how a decker (no cyber but the datajack) and the rigger (3 to 5 essence in cyberware only for being able to rig) can be made using exchangable technology (as has been implied), the general idea is good, and the vehicle rules surey need a good dust-off. Hey, I only today learned I could actually use the combat pool when rigging, which is really stupid considering the combat pool is intended to be used for meat combat. It's not like a decker can use combat pool either, right? Anyway, if the new vehicle rules aren't as bloated and a bit more easily accessible, I would be happy. Not if this involved the passing of the VCR or at least the boni it offered when rigging, but meh, I'll wait for an announcement of this (like with the abandonemnt of the cyberdeck) before I go all up in arms.

Anyway, my above comment is way outdated and not reflecting my current views any more.
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