Riggers in SR4 - Dumpshock Forums

Riggers in SR4, (Whats happening to them anyways?)

phelious fogg View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 04:04 PM Post #1
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 555 Joined: 11-August 03 Member No.: 5,408	I get the idea that deckers and riggers are getting a merger in SR4. (At least thats what I've picked up from reading this forum.) I think this is a bad idea, as I really liked Riggers and deckers being seperate. I dont really see what being a good computer type has to do with being a good wheelman. Especialy with the need of a good VCR unit. Anyways, I'd love having the vehicle rules simplified, but I would really dislike having them (Riggers) rolled into Deckers. What are the communities ideas?

Tanka View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 04:36 PM Post #2
Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715	Well, for one, just because everybody wants it does not mean it will happen (merging of decker and rigger). I haven't read any official word saying that it's happened, so until I do, I'll assume they haven't been merged.

Bigity View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 04:47 PM Post #3
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,840 Joined: 24-July 02 From: Lubbock, TX Member No.: 3,024	But they have said that the line between rigger and decker has been blurred, which is a way to say they are more the same now, as opposed to being different still.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 04:53 PM Post #4
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Again, that's based on the false assumption that they were particularly different to begin with. ~J

Tanka View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 05:05 PM Post #5
Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715	Exactly what Kagetenshi said. What's the rule about datajacks and decking? Oh yeah. If you don't have a VCR, but have a datajack, you can "rig" a vehicle with the proper adaptation. You get a +1 to your Reaction for purposes of driving the vehicle. So that means deckers can rig a vehicle on the fly. Not as well as a rigger, but it's at least a small benefit. Pretty blurred, innit?

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 05:04 PM Post #6
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Moreover, Computers 6 is quite valuable for a Rigger. ~J

nezumi View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 05:04 PM Post #7
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760	From what I've seen, it sounds like deckers are taking on one of the roles of the riggers; electronic warfare. Considering most riggers have a choice between vehicle rigging, drone rigging or EW as their focus, and EW is usually the one they DON'T choose, plus the fact that deckers are usually the rigger's best friend (or vice versa), it sort of makes sense to let the decker take on those responsibilities. One less thing the rigger has to worry about, and one more reason for them to be friends.

Tarantula View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 05:07 PM Post #8
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686	Tanka, no. If you have a datajack but no VCR, you do nothing even remotely like rigging with the vehicle. You drive using the "virtual dashboard" which is basically a digital display of dashboard controls. You then use your hands/arms etc to turn the digital steering wheel thus steering the car. You also get no access to the vehicle sensors, weapon systems, or anything else. Also, you don't get any control pool, knowledge of just how damaged your car is, and no reduction to any driving test TNs. All in all, its a extremely bad substitute for an actual rigger, only marginally better than someone just freewheelin it. (In fact, the street sammy probably has a higher reaction than the decker anyway, you'd be better letting him just twitch drive it with his wired)

mfb View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 05:17 PM Post #9
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	yeah. i think it's going to be more that deckers can start doing things that were formerly rigger-only (such as electronic warfare and drone control) and that riggers are going to be able to take advantage of decker technology (such as running drones over Matrix connections). they're not going to be the same thing; you won't hire a hacker to be your wheelman, and you won't hire a rigger to slice a system. but they'll be able to work with each other much more easily.

Bigity View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 05:12 PM Post #10
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,840 Joined: 24-July 02 From: Lubbock, TX Member No.: 3,024	I wouldn't exactly compare someone with a datajack and virtual dashboard to a jacked in rigger with VCR3. Similar? Maybe, in the same way that Peewee league and NFL football are similar. Also, there was the whole thing were a seperate datajack is needed (or was, can't remember what edition that was from). That seems to me, that the developers wanted a hard line between deckers and riggers, or at least require a little more commitment to doing both. I'm all for making non-riggers more productive in vehicles, but I still want riggers (the guys with all the cyber, and gear) to be better then everyone else. Doubly so in regards to direct control of a vehicle or drone.

Nikoli View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 05:26 PM Post #11
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033	Just an aside, datajack driving grants a -1 to TNs for drive tests in addition to the +1 reaction.

Charon View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 05:30 PM Post #12
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087	I always felt that the virtual dashboard was more useful for the Street Sam or Physads with a datajack than for the Decker. They often have higher driving skill than the decker but YMMV. The blurring of Rigger & Decker that annoyed me the most is the security rigger.

Bigity

Mar 25 2005, 05:37 PM

Post #13

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (Charon)

I always felt that the virtual dashboard was more useful for the Street Sam or Physads with a datajack than for the Decker. They often have higher driving skill than the decker but YMMV.

The blurring of Rigger & Decker that annoyed me the most is the security rigger.

I can agree with that. The whole security rigger thing I never liked.

Tarantula

Mar 25 2005, 05:39 PM

Post #14

Dragon

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QUOTE (Bigity)

QUOTE (Charon @ Mar 25 2005, 12:30 PM)

I always felt that the virtual dashboard was more useful for the Street Sam or Physads with a datajack than for the Decker. They often have higher driving skill than the decker but YMMV.

The blurring of Rigger & Decker that annoyed me the most is the security rigger.

I can agree with that. The whole security rigger thing I never liked.

Same here, I never liked ccss riggers either.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 05:39 PM Post #15
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Why not? I've always greatly enjoyed them. ~J

Kanada Ten View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 05:50 PM Post #16
Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826	Hey, wireless vehicles controlled using virtual dashboards! No more drone adaptation needed, you could even have software brains on the 'trix controlling them instead of installing a hardware drone pilot.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 06:02 PM Post #17
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Watches as that moves to #1 least-used feature among Shadowrunners, beating out vehicle termination chips ~J

Charon

Mar 25 2005, 06:59 PM

Post #18

Running Target

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Mar 25 2005, 12:39 PM)

Why not? I've always greatly enjoyed them.

~J

Because if I decide to run an infiltration scenario, handling the security system is the one thing that the decker can do to remain involved every step of the way.

If the rigger take that function over, I get one bored decker player.

Thankfully, that rigger security system makes no sense as a standard security feature which means that even if player are aware of it, I can readily explain why that feature IMC is limited to small isolated sites of R&D (or similar cases). And if the team has a decker but no rigger, then obviously they won't be hired to hit these kind of sites.

It's still an irritating concept for most decker players. When you create a decker, most people do it with the hackers from spy thrillers in mind. To design such a character and then be told that it's actually the wheelman of the team who will be able to handle the security system in a CCSS system is very irksome.

Nikoli View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 07:03 PM Post #19
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033	Umm, I always understood it to be separated like this: Deckers handle security and access CCSS Riggers handle counter intrusion measures, such as drones, gun emplacements and co-ordinating with guards.

Charon View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 07:07 PM Post #20
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087	The idea of the security rigger is that he controls the whole system like he would control a vehicle. Cameras, doors, gun emplacement, alarms etc. One could say that his brain becomes the security computer of the system. A decker trying to spoof the cameras of that kind of system would go through hell and most likely fail. EDIT : Well, I am more fluent in the corporate handbook than the SR3 update so I might be wrong.

Nikoli View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 07:46 PM Post #21
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033	Well, cameras are a special case for the security. Yes the riggers can see through them, but they can't control them like a decker can. as long as the decker isn't replacing a camera signal with hentai it's all good.

Kanada Ten

Mar 25 2005, 08:11 PM

Post #22

Beetle Eater

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

*Watches as that moves to #1 least-used feature among Shadowrunners, beating out vehicle termination chips*

Sorry, but I think controlling an infinate drone network without the need for an RC deck, or the worry of flux within wireless Matrix areas will be a feature no one will ignore. Virtual Private Networks are going to be key in a wireless system and they can be protected by black ice (or agents using black hammer attack programs).

Charon

Mar 25 2005, 08:13 PM

Post #23

Running Target

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QUOTE (Nikoli @ Mar 25 2005, 02:46 PM)

Well, cameras are a special case for the security. Yes the riggers can see through them, but they can't control them like a decker can. as long as the decker isn't replacing a camera signal with hentai it's all good.

What's that supposed to mean? If a camera is part of a rigger's CCSS, it's under his control. If a decker tries to take control of them, he'll most likely get killed because decking a CCSS is murder. The Runner team would need their rigger to connect to the system and take over, not the decker.

Nikoli View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 08:23 PM Post #24
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033	The rigger can see through it and can move the camera if it's able, however he's still receiving the feed from the building host.

Charon View Member Profile	Mar 25 2005, 08:21 PM Post #25
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087	Essentially, he is the building host. You don't get to deck around him. If a device is part of a CCSS, then it answers directly to the rigger's CCSS. Heck, the CC stands for Closed Circuit. The info don't make a convenient loop through an host for the decker to access.

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