I get the idea that deckers and riggers are getting a merger in SR4. (At least thats what I've picked up from reading this forum.)

I think this is a bad idea, as I really liked Riggers and deckers being seperate. I dont really see what being a good computer type has to do with being a good wheelman. Especialy with the need of a good VCR unit.

Anyways, I'd love having the vehicle rules simplified, but I would really dislike having them (Riggers) rolled into Deckers.

What are the communities ideas?

Well, for one, just because everybody wants it does not mean it will happen (merging of decker and rigger). I haven't read any official word saying that it's happened, so until I do, I'll assume they haven't been merged.

But they have said that the line between rigger and decker has been blurred, which is a way to say they are more the same now, as opposed to being different still.

Again, that's based on the false assumption that they were particularly different to begin with.

~J

Exactly what Kagetenshi said.

What's the rule about datajacks and decking?

Oh yeah. If you don't have a VCR, but have a datajack, you can "rig" a vehicle with the proper adaptation. You get a +1 to your Reaction for purposes of driving the vehicle.

So that means deckers can rig a vehicle on the fly. Not as well as a rigger, but it's at least a small benefit.

Pretty blurred, innit?

Moreover, Computers 6 is quite valuable for a Rigger.

~J

From what I've seen, it sounds like deckers are taking on one of the roles of the riggers; electronic warfare. Considering most riggers have a choice between vehicle rigging, drone rigging or EW as their focus, and EW is usually the one they DON'T choose, plus the fact that deckers are usually the rigger's best friend (or vice versa), it sort of makes sense to let the decker take on those responsibilities. One less thing the rigger has to worry about, and one more reason for them to be friends.

Tanka, no. If you have a datajack but no VCR, you do nothing even remotely like rigging with the vehicle. You drive using the "virtual dashboard" which is basically a digital display of dashboard controls. You then use your hands/arms etc to turn the digital steering wheel thus steering the car. You also get no access to the vehicle sensors, weapon systems, or anything else. Also, you don't get any control pool, knowledge of just how damaged your car is, and no reduction to any driving test TNs.

All in all, its a extremely bad substitute for an actual rigger, only marginally better than someone just freewheelin it. (In fact, the street sammy probably has a higher reaction than the decker anyway, you'd be better letting him just twitch drive it with his wired)

yeah. i think it's going to be more that deckers can start doing things that were formerly rigger-only (such as electronic warfare and drone control) and that riggers are going to be able to take advantage of decker technology (such as running drones over Matrix connections). they're not going to be the same thing; you won't hire a hacker to be your wheelman, and you won't hire a rigger to slice a system. but they'll be able to work with each other much more easily.

I wouldn't exactly compare someone with a datajack and virtual dashboard to a jacked in rigger with VCR3.

Similar? Maybe, in the same way that Peewee league and NFL football are similar.

Also, there was the whole thing were a seperate datajack is needed (or was, can't remember what edition that was from). That seems to me, that the developers wanted a hard line between deckers and riggers, or at least require a little more commitment to doing both.

I'm all for making non-riggers more productive in vehicles, but I still want riggers (the guys with all the cyber, and gear) to be better then everyone else. Doubly so in regards to direct control of a vehicle or drone.

Just an aside, datajack driving grants a -1 to TNs for drive tests in addition to the +1 reaction.

I always felt that the virtual dashboard was more useful for the Street Sam or Physads with a datajack than for the Decker. They often have higher driving skill than the decker but YMMV.

The blurring of Rigger & Decker that annoyed me the most is the security rigger.

Why not? I've always greatly enjoyed them.

~J

Hey, wireless vehicles controlled using virtual dashboards! No more drone adaptation needed, you could even have software brains on the 'trix controlling them instead of installing a hardware drone pilot.

*Watches as that moves to #1 least-used feature among Shadowrunners, beating out vehicle termination chips*

~J

Umm, I always understood it to be separated like this:

Deckers handle security and access

CCSS Riggers handle counter intrusion measures, such as drones, gun emplacements and co-ordinating with guards.

The idea of the security rigger is that he controls the whole system like he would control a vehicle.

Cameras, doors, gun emplacement, alarms etc.

One could say that his brain becomes the security computer of the system. A decker trying to spoof the cameras of that kind of system would go through hell and most likely fail.

EDIT : Well, I am more fluent in the corporate handbook than the SR3 update so I might be wrong.

Well, cameras are a special case for the security. Yes the riggers can see through them, but they can't control them like a decker can. as long as the decker isn't replacing a camera signal with hentai it's all good.

The rigger can see through it and can move the camera if it's able, however he's still receiving the feed from the building host.

Essentially, he is the building host.

You don't get to deck around him. If a device is part of a CCSS, then it answers directly to the rigger's CCSS.

Heck, the CC stands for Closed Circuit. The info don't make a convenient loop through an host for the decker to access.

I say bring it on!

Both Archetypes use their brains to interface with technology. I would rather see them combined into one as far as rules are concerned. I'm sure you'll still get specialists that prefer one over the other. After all, there are different skills involved. I would just rather see the interface tech be melded into one core rules set.

The decker needs only to feed a BTL into the camera to kill the CCSS rigger or take him/her out of action. CCSS is lame as it put all security in the hands of one person and yet fails to secure the system. There is no logical, reasonable or even playable aspect of it. Not until now anyway. Once you can have an entire secuirty compliment hooked into an AR-CCSS...

I like combining them from a game mechanics standpoint, but don't like it from a story perspective. Traditional riggers and deckers both get bored at different times.

1) The decker is not much good except for gathering intel and providing overwatch. So the decker is bored whenever there is a battle, car chase, or the campaign leaves the city.
2) A traditional decker is bored almost all the time as he sits in the getaway car waiting for something to happen. With drones he can get in on the combat action.

I totally agree with Fortune about combining the mechanics of the two. Blur the area between the too (as the CCSS security rigger did) and you get a really fun versatile character. I think that is why so many people made the rigger/decker combo.

However, like fogg, I really like the decker and the rigger as separate character archetypes. In fact I would love to see four separate archetypes based on different skill sets and maybe some hardware/cyberware differences.

Hackers: Deep Matrix pros who specialize in ripping info from corporations from the safety of their apartment or local stuffer shack.
Security Specialists: Hackers who go wireless with their team to provide overwatch, monitor "augmented reality" and knockout security systems.
Drone Riggers: Riggers who use the wireless matrix to control an army of machines.
Vehicle Riggers: The guy who gets your team away from Lonestar.

Nothing saying that characters couldn't do all of those functions, but the characters each have a different feel to them. And when you call your friendly neighborhood fixer for some extra help, you know shadowrunners will ask specifically for "hacker" or a "vehicle rigger" if that what they need even if the character can do it all.

In spite of the fact that people already persist in maintaining this silly division, I'd like to cast my vote strongly against anything that splits the Rigger (there's only one, folks) into a vehicle Rigger and a drone Rigger. Maybe allow a Drone-guy, but don't split the Rigger for no good reason.

~J

Depending on how the skills and new 'ware fall, the Rigger may find it beneficial to specialize on way or the other, just like any other character.

The rules cost/benefit analysis for generalists and specialists apply to all archetypes, not just adepts and sams.

-Siege

I probably echoing a previous dumpshock battle, but I don't think the division is silly at all. A rigger can certainly do both, but most are better at one or the other for no other reason that it takes a dreckload of money to build a comprehensive set of drones or the really kickin' vehicles.

Which is the point of my previous post. There is nothing fundamentally different in the game mechanics between a drone rigger and a vehicle rigger, but there is plenty of latitude to create different archetypes and cool characters that specialize in one over the other. Of course if you want to create just a rigger who is equally good at both you can do that too.

The best part of Shadowrun-options. Dreckloads of character options and different flavor for different characters.

I suppose that's a point for drone riggers, but there's absolutely no reason for a vehicle rigger not to exapand into drones. It's negligable cost for massive return. Doubly so if you metagame and look at how much time you'll be in play if you're pure-vehicle.

~J

I agree completely or for a drone rigger to invest in a good getaway vehicle or van. The difference is in degree. Depending on how you view your character, you can spend a lot more of your nuyen on vehicles or drones. I imagine the same thing might happen with hacker/riggers. The character is probably going to be able to do a little bit of everything because it is damn useful, but will specialize in the one or two things that make the character unique.

Okay here is something I never got..Why are VCRs and things like wired reflex incapable?

Cynic, do you men incompatible?

They aren't
If you got the essence and the cash you can have both, but the effects will not stack.

Well, riggers don't use their physical body to control a vehilce; once they jump into a vehilce their body is doing nothing, really, though it could be doing nothing faster. Wired reflexes transmit the signals from the brain to the body faster, and a VCR doesn't. VCRs simply turn the vehicle into a new body, a body which responds faster than flesh anyway. More powerful VCRs simply allow one to become able to use that response.

One can have both, they simply don't work together.

Come to that, I rescind my statement that it makes sense to just be a drone Rigger. Considering transport issues, how cheap VCR-1s are, and how much more powerful you are jumped into a drone than ordering it around, there's just no reason to be a Drone Rigger rather than a Renaissance Rigger.

~J

Think about it. MBW/WR make your body react faster to what your brain says to do. A VCR intercepts the signals of what you want you body to do, and translates it into what your vehicle can do, and moves it appropriately.

Why would better connection to your physical muscles help that at all? Why wouldn't something between the connection from brain to physical impede the signal transfer?

Who would want to mix VCR and MBW anyway? A PC created with 10M, access to a Delta clinic at chargen and no common sense?

Because I sure don't see who would get that kind of implant mix when during play.

the problem with rigging is the VCR. it's too damn expensive to allow anyone to casually rig. i figure, the VCR offers a hell of a lot of different bonuses. why not break the VCR up into component cyberware, each of which offers a portion of the VCR bonuses for a portion of the cost?

Because it doesn't make much sense. There aren't subsystems that do complete tasks by themselves.

~J