SR4 and the definition of Essence, Puting right the oversights of M&M Options

[Sandoval Smith]

If they want me to BS at them, I'll be happy to. It's a game mechanic that really doesn't bother me that much (and with Bone lacing, if Titanium didn't have a higher essence cost, why would anyone pass it up for plastic if they had the cash?).

"Composition of the cyber limb doesn't really matter. It's the fact that it is a wholly artificial construction being bonded to your nervous system through artificial means that gives it the high essence cost."

[mfb]

which is why, like you, i'm in favor of simply not concretely explaining it. because many players (and GMs!) aren't going to just want you to BS at them--they're going to take the logic that explains why titanium lacing costs more essence than plastic lacing, and try to apply it to other cyberware.

[Blitzen]

Just thought I'd chime in on this one. I can still remeber the way my first SR GM (back in 2nd ed.) described essence to me and I think it just kinda stuck with me ever since. Anyway, he descrided it as the link between body and soul. The more the body is augmented the more difficult it becomes for the soul to stay attached, either because the augmentations interfere with the link or there is physically less true body there for the soul to attach itself to. Which to my knowledge is why a character in cybermancy is dual-natured, because their spirit is slipping away and it's just barely being tethered to the body through artifical/magical means.
Well thats the way it was descrided to me anyhow, wrong, right or otherwise that's the way I think of it.

[Sandoval Smith]

[RunnerPaul]

[mfb]

[Arethusa]

I'd also appreciate some clarification as to just how defined it is ingame. There is at least some loos precedent (magic) for attributes being clearly defined, quantified, and regulated ingame, even if I think that was a very, very bad design move to begin with. Magic is, ah, subtle, right?

Of course, if that went away in 4th edition...

[Ol' Scratch]

I'd be happy just dropping it altogether, or simply leave it as an abstract measure of how much stress the metahuman body can handle (be it through implants which permanently lower it, or magic which uses it to see how harshly drain affects it) and be done with it. That's all it really is to begin with, afteralll.

[Gildashard]

Titanium is an extremely biocompatiable material and is used in most implants. Also used is Stainless Steel, Ceramic, Cobalt Chromium, and Poly-ethylene.

Small wear particles of these materials cause the problems. They often cause bone death and get into the blood stream. Titanium is the most bio compatible, ceramic is good cause it's so hard and doesn't wear much.

The surgury is fairly invasive. Cut the ball off the top of the femur, drill a hole, pound the implant in with a hammer. Drill the ball socket out on the pelvis, cement in a new poly-eythlene or ceramic cup. Sew ya back up and you can walk and run again in a fwe months.

So where's the essence loss? foreign object in the body, invasive surgery, loss of nature body components with artificial?

[Critias]

Hip implants, huh? How many of those can a person have at once? That's the sort of math we need to figure out just what the Essence cost is.

[mfb]

only two, before the body simply runs out of room. my god, if a simple hip implant costs 3 essence...!

[Skeptical Clown]

Trying to force the game world to fit the game mechanics can only lead to insanity. Essence works fine for what it is, and there's really no need to understand it.

[Kagetenshi]

No more than 2.99, as people can have two.

~J

[mallet]

Maybe they should get rid of essence all together.

If they really want it to effect the human body/soul then maybe they should have it take points off of stats.

I know, I know I can hear your screams hear in Vancouver, but hear(read) me out.

If Essence is supposed to be this whole mind/body/soul thing which gets weaker the more cyberware, surgery, etc... you have done to you, then shouldn't we just call a spade a spade and have it start to effect the characters Body (str, quic, bod), Mind (Int, chr) and soul (Wil)?

I don't have the exact rules for this worked out, just making this up on the fly, but couldn't they have that certain types of cyberware effect different stats?

Dermal plates drop Chr.? Eye Gun drops Int.?

Or maybe it all only effects Willpower? Willpower basically becomes the new Essence. the more cyber you have the more it drops. If it reaches zero you die. But make it so you can slowly (ie with lots of karma and some sort of personal quest/triumph) you can go up in willpower.

Obviously there are a lot of different details and mechanics to work out in this kind of system, but maybe it would work. It would at least get rid of all the essence "problems" and make cyberware have an effect of what it's supposed to. the human body, mind and soul.

[Gildashard]

So you could have two knee and two hip implants. Oh, and I forgot shoulder implants, less common but you could have two of those as well.

And this doesn't count trauma products which consist of various screws, plates, pins, and wires.

I wouldn't think that you would lose that much essense, maybe a small amount for the bone loss plus the fact that your body doesn't like foreign objects in there. But maybe .25 for each implant. Bone lacing may fall into this category though it is throughout the body affecting alot of bone.

Now things that "wire" in to the system would be more invasive, like wired reflexes. Replacement eyes, smart links, etc.

Should the loss of a limb cause essense loss? I would think so as you are no longer "whole".

All in all, I think it's how much of the natural body is present, foreign objects in the body, and disturbances in the body's makeup (brain or organ damage, cancer, etc. So in saying this, cyberware may design it's essense loss around these atrributes"


Completeness (Is something removed from the body? bone, tissue, etc. or damaged / diseased)
Invasiveness (Does the body tolerate the foreign cyberware)

Then evaulate each piece of cyberware and decide, how much of the body must be removed and how invasive to the body's equillibrium.

So a hip implant might be
Completeness -.1
Invasiveness -.15


While a replaced limb might be
Completeness -.75
Invasiveness -1.25

A datajack
Completeness 0
Invasiveness -.5

Wire Reflexes
Completeness 0
Invasiveness 1,2,3

Probably too complicated for the rules, might help with cyberware creation to help determine essense loss but ultimately game balance will take priority.

[Fortune]

[frostPDP]

Well, the way I've always seen Essence is by the SR3 sort of "a mixture of neurological, spiritual power" etc etc. Don't mind my n00bishness.

The problem I've always seen is that if a sammie gets, for example, both cyberlegs and both cyberarms and then gets bone lacing, he loses the full brunt of it all while paying the essence costs. That's silly, but thats how it goes.

In an ideal "essence system" would be by nature complicated - An arm, for example, would have a certain amount of essence in it (lets say 1 point, since that's what its worth now.) Its not fully worked out, so bear with me and feel free to extrapolate any ideas.

Arms and legs: 1 each
Torso: 2 (most of the organs are located here)
Head: 2 (Houses the brain, which is in my personal view the soul's interface with the world.)

If you get, let's say, Wired 2 (3 essence cost) you have to put the systems and whatnot in certain places. Perhaps 1 point of that has to go to your head, one point to the torso, and a quarter of a point elsewhere (if you get a cyber-arm, then .25 of the 1 point of storage is taken up by the reflexes.) Advanced levels (Deltaware, etc) will reduce the overall cost and thus the cost to each part of the body.

This system is obviously too convoluted to work, which is why they trim it down to a convinent 6 points anywhere-you-want system. Not to mention it always throws into balance that whole "Well if a Mage has 8 points of essence and 6 points of magic, can he get two points worth in cyberware before taking a magic hit?" The answer is probably pretty obvious, buuuut we won't get into that.

Some cyberware costs, however, do need to be addressed. 2+ points for a high level of bone-lacing? If it were replacement, perhaps I'd feel right with that expense. Its not - Instead its a lacing. Perhaps you do need more lacing at a higher level, but if a small bit of plastic gives a small improvement, wouldn't a lot of titanium (which is a lot stronger than plastic) give twice of a lot of protection? (Yes, I make no sense. Bear with me.)

Bone Lacing and Dermal Plating sounded like the coolest things ever until I looked at the cost essence-wise. People get metal plates put in them all the time to hold body parts together, so would that cost essence? If so, a lot or a little?

And as for peg legs having an essence cost, a small titanium shaft is basically a laced-bone, and if you get a wooden peg-leg is it supposed to cost essence? Most peg-legs aren't surgically embedded, I'd figure, but are strapped-on. If that costs essence, I'll eat my hat.

Anyway that's my :nuyen: :nuyen: worth

[Chibu]

So, The only way it makes sense to me is because Shadowrun is the successor (In game history) to Earthdawn. So, I've only been playing ED since Christmas and SR for a couple of years now. But, I've read quite a bit about both. Including Opinions, and Cannon.

The Thing is, The reason that Essence is reduced from ware/trauma, IMO, is that it Alters your True Pattern. Blood Magic does the same. And, the reason that Harlequin doesn't have ware isn't because his Magic Rating would go down (40 down to 34 isn't too bad, When you have 10K years to get better at magic, you get better), The reason that he doesn't have it is because he is a lightbearer (Again, I'm not sure it specifically says that anywhere, but his comments about the Horrors and such make it seem very likely) lightbearers have to take an oath that says that they will never use Blood Magic because it alters their True Pattern. Even though the change is very slight, they still refuse to do it. And we're talking like .01 Essence for doing Blood Magic. So, choosing to completely destroy your astral body (read: True Pattern) must be disgusting to him.

And, Essence can easily, and staying in cannon, Essence is a measure of the integrity of your astral body. Astral Health, if you will. Just as Body is a measure of physical health, Essence if a measure of astral. This can be clearly seen from things such as when assensing someone with ware, you see (if you get enough successes of course) Black spots on a person's aura, on their astral body, indicating cyberware.

I dunno, maybe I'm just crazy (well, i already know that i am, but, that's not important) but, it all seems to make sense to me.