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RunnerPaul
Let's talk about the definition of Essence. When Man & Machine was released one of it's selling points was that it would spell out exactly what essence and essence loss represented.

But then we all got to read the Developers Say and it turned out that this concrete definition of essence loss was something along the lines of "Cyberware interfaces with the nervous system, and this interface forces the body to adjust itself to be out of attunement with mana; heavy trauma (including deliberate trauma such as surgery), and certain drugs can also force the nervous system to become out of attunement with mana."

I know that many people looked at that and said that it was no better than SR1's statement that Essence was "a measure of the soundness of the Central Nervous System and Spirit".

For instance, there's all sorts of cyberware implants that would have no significant ties to the nervous system: Non-retractable cyberspurs and hand razors, radio-controlled one-shot auto injectors, and bone lacing, to name a few, and yet these pieces of ware do have a listed essence cost. Then there's variable essence costs for some pieces of ware that come in variable ratings, such as the Data Compactor even though the increased rating should require no extra neural interfacing. Man & Machine's definition does little to answer these questions.

Invariably, we all know the metagame reason behind Essence loss: Game Balance. However, I still think that it should be possible to come up with an in-game definition of what Essence is that can answer all the questions. I think some of the later SR2 products were on the right track when they were talking about implants that grant abilities that deviate from a being's Astral Template. With a little refinement of that explanation, to account for Bioware and other implants that consist of living matter, I think we'd have an in game definition that dovetails neatly with the metagame reasoning of "It's to maintain game balance".

Just something I wanted to throw out there in case anyone involved with SR4 happens to be looking.
Dizzo Dizzman
I always viewed it in a different way. The body and the spirit are a intertwinned system that can regulate and heal itself. Damage done to the system (i.e. essence loss) degrades both the body and the spirit, but the system will adapt and survive. However, if the system takes on too much damage, it becomes unstable and begins to break down (i.e. cyberzomies and cancer).

You see the same thing happen with severely damaged ecosystems or really elder folks at the end of life. There is no one thing wrong with them, just a bunch minor things that degrade the system to the point where it can no longer survive.

mintcar
I donīt want a definition, really. The real reason you canīt put however much cyberware you want in a person should be so complex the worldīs top scientists wouldnīt have the answer. Why would the pcīs? A simple "Just the way it is" has always been my answer when the players have been curious.
Ancient History
Well, to be most accurate, in first edition it started out with the very simple and ambiguous statement that Essence was "a measure of the soundness of the central nervous system and spirit." 2nd edition brought forth a much more mystical approach to essence, especially the Essence integrity theory, an approach you can see in Shadowtech, Cybertechnology, and Tír na nÓg. 3rd edition's Man and Machine brought the definition back in line to a measure of impact on the nervous system, and drew a logical reasoning for this impacting magical ability as well.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Dizzo Dizzman)
I always viewed it in a different way. The body and the spirit are a intertwinned system that can regulate and heal itself. Damage done to the system (i.e. essence loss) degrades both the body and the spirit, but the system will adapt and survive. However, if the system takes on too much damage, it becomes unstable and begins to break down (i.e. cyberzomies and cancer).

The body barely heals itself as it is. Anything but the most minor of injuries has effects lasting for years, and may never go away at all.

~J
mintcar

QUOTE
The body barely heals itself as it is.

Thatīs not true. People can recover from some amazing injuries.

You feel rather disapointed and weak when you have a small injury thatīs hard to shake off, like a dislocated knee that just wont work properly for a year afterwards, thatīs for sure though. The body doesnīt heal as fast as you would like it to, but itīs still a miracle. smile.gif
Thanos007
How about this? Cyber and bioware put stress on the original components and too much of either just wares them out. Why not replace those you ask? Well... how about too much crap that doesn't really belong in your body has adverse effects on your brain. The one thing you can't replace. Yet.

What effects? Chemical imbalances. psychosis. Jeez I'm no Dr. but I bet there are a lot of draw back to large amounts of both cyber and bioware. Who need mystic mumbo jumbo. Pretty sure if we had that kinda tech now it would pan out like that.

Thanos
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Ancient History)
3rd edition's Man and Machine brought the definition back in line to a measure of impact on the nervous system, and drew a logical reasoning for this impacting magical ability as well.

And in doing so, leaves a lot of unanswered questions for something that's supposed to be a basic design principle.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Mar 27 2005, 05:12 PM)
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Mar 27 2005, 04:12 PM)
3rd edition's Man and Machine brought the definition back in line to a measure of impact on the nervous system, and drew a logical reasoning for this impacting magical ability as well.

And in doing so, leaves a lot of unanswered questions for something that's supposed to be a basic design principle.

What's your point? So it's mysterious, and scientists can't really come up with a good explainnation for what's going on. It's the same with UGE, "metagenes", Magic, and well basically half of everything that's happenned since the Awakening.

Hell, it's the same today with the inherently non-mathmatical methods by which quantum systems "choose" between different probabilistic states as well; we know it's a completely random Poisson distribution, but we certainly have no idea *why* or *how*, not yet; our vaunted Copenhagen interpretation for Quantum Mechanics is nothing more than the greatest minds of the last century waving their hands and saying, "Meh, I dunno, it just works, doesn't it?" And it's the interpretation we're still using, 80 years later, and drawing some important and useful conclusions from as well.

There will always be things that scientists can't explain, and because of this there will always be scientists touting imperfect explainnations that don't *really* fit every observable, but do have enough truth in them to be useful and so are accepted despite several big and important objections (the aforementioned Copenhagen interpretation, evolutionary biology, etc). I don't really see the problem with scientists giving an imperfect explainnation, and when pressed just sorta waving their hands and saying, "Meh, I dunno," but then I got my bachelor's degree in chemistry so I'm kinda used to hearing that. biggrin.gif
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
What's your point? So it's mysterious, and scientists can't really come up with a good explainnation for what's going on.

My point is, an in-game basic principle behind a mechanic that leaves unanswerable questions leaves the door open to rules that aren't internally consistent with each other. A lack of internal consistency can interfere with suspension of disbelief on the part of players, hindering buy-in into the game setting. Also, in some cases, an inconsistent in-game rationale can lead to problems on the metagame side, where the rules are supposed to promote balance.

One example in the form of a rhetorical question: Is a character who pays the higher essence cost for a top-of-the-line cranial cyberdeck balanced against another character who pays the nuyen cost to get a deck with the same stats as an internal device on their cyberarm?

Ancient History
If balance is the issue, than the reasons we have Essence are:

a) Prevent magicians from going hog-wild on cyber and becoming cybermantic gods.

b) Keep the 'ware on sammies down to a (relatively) reasonable level.

c) Provide a handy mechanic for healing spells, critter powers, and the like.
Sandoval Smith
I've never played Earthdawn, but I thought explaining Essence as representing the integrity of the metahuman 'pattern' as having a nice ring to it. Cyberware invasively alters the metehuman body to such an extent that it causes divergence from the astral pattern. That's why losing an arm in a car accident doesn't cause Essence loss, but getting a cyber replacement does.
kloked1
I have always considered it the taint of impurities, the closer to pure human tissue the lower the essence cost, but since it is always crafted by human hands it will always taint the system.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Ancient History)
If balance is the issue

Balance is the metagame concern. I just would like to see an unambiguous in-game rationale that points in the same direction.

Now I suppose that if they hadn't done such a decent job on the basic in-game assumptions for SR3's Magic System, or if SR2's Essence Integrity Theory wasn't so tantilizingly close to being unabiguous and supportive of the metagame, I wouldn't have been so disapointed with SR3's in-game definition of Essence.

Is wanting an in-game definiton of essence that I can look at and not think "but what about..." and then list over a half-dozen implants that make me question that in-game definiton so wrong of me?

DrJest
I just go with the SR2 definition myself. It just fits nicely with the worldview.
mfb
i'm with mintcar. i don't want a concrete explanation for Essence, mainly because bone lacing breaks the hell out of all of them. the SR3 one is especially painful.
Siege
Define it the same way you define Charisma - vaguely and evasively. grinbig.gif

-Siege
Garland
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith)
I've never played Earthdawn, but I thought explaining Essence as representing the integrity of the metahuman 'pattern' as having a nice ring to it. Cyberware invasively alters the metehuman body to such an extent that it causes divergence from the astral pattern. That's why losing an arm in a car accident doesn't cause Essence loss, but getting a cyber replacement does.

Whether you play ED or not, this is the least painful way of I know of to explain Essence and still have an explanation.
BitBasher
QUOTE (mfb)
i'm with mintcar. i don't want a concrete explanation for Essence, mainly because bone lacing breaks the hell out of all of them. the SR3 one is especially painful.

Bone lacing works perfectly fine with the astral paperdoll theory.
psykotisk_overlegen
Except of course that the different types of bonelacing should cost equal amounts of essence, unless you somehow lace more bones with titan than with plastic.
Edit:that's where it doesnt work with the astral paperdoll
Sandoval Smith
At that point you can start getting all mincey with statements like, "plastic bonelacing uses a mixture of bio-organic polymers that reduce the negative impact of introduction into metahuman system." Whereas titanium is a dense metal that is extraordinarily difficult to alter in any manner to convince the body that it actually belongs in there.

Or it very well could be that you do get more titanium than plastic when you bone lace it. Plastic is used to reinforce only certain joints and strutures, the ones that will most benefit from the extra support. Whereas with a dense substance like titanium, in order to maintain the integrity of the entire skeletal structure, you have to install a much more comprehensive latticework, so that the titanium laced bones are fully supported and not putting undue pressure on any part of the skeleton.

Although rather than say all that, I'm willing to agree with 'just because.'
mfb
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Bone lacing works perfectly fine with the astral paperdoll theory.

how? is titanium more astrally "bad" than plastic, for some reason?
Sandoval Smith
*points to above post*
Kremlin KOA
remember people that plastics are long carbon strings... same as flesh

and aluminium occurs in the body to a far greater extent than titanium
mfb
that's a very dangerous slope to start down on. what do you tell your player when he starts asking about the composition of his other cyberware? do you really want to get into a debate about what cyberlimbs are made of, and whether or not they can be made out of, say, stainless steel (our blood is colored by its iron content!) instead, for lowered essence costs?
Sandoval Smith
If they want me to BS at them, I'll be happy to. It's a game mechanic that really doesn't bother me that much (and with Bone lacing, if Titanium didn't have a higher essence cost, why would anyone pass it up for plastic if they had the cash?).

"Composition of the cyber limb doesn't really matter. It's the fact that it is a wholly artificial construction being bonded to your nervous system through artificial means that gives it the high essence cost."
mfb
which is why, like you, i'm in favor of simply not concretely explaining it. because many players (and GMs!) aren't going to just want you to BS at them--they're going to take the logic that explains why titanium lacing costs more essence than plastic lacing, and try to apply it to other cyberware.
Blitzen
Just thought I'd chime in on this one. I can still remeber the way my first SR GM (back in 2nd ed.) described essence to me and I think it just kinda stuck with me ever since. Anyway, he descrided it as the link between body and soul. The more the body is augmented the more difficult it becomes for the soul to stay attached, either because the augmentations interfere with the link or there is physically less true body there for the soul to attach itself to. Which to my knowledge is why a character in cybermancy is dual-natured, because their spirit is slipping away and it's just barely being tethered to the body through artifical/magical means.
Well thats the way it was descrided to me anyhow, wrong, right or otherwise that's the way I think of it.
Sandoval Smith
QUOTE (mfb)
which is why, like you, i'm in favor of simply not concretely explaining it. because many players (and GMs!) aren't going to just want you to BS at them--they're going to take the logic that explains why titanium lacing costs more essence than plastic lacing, and try to apply it to other cyberware.

Still, it really does need some sort of explanation that can stand up to at least a little scrutiny. Interfers with neural connections fails pretty quickly, but the astral pattern/paper doll seems to stand up pretty well. This is how your spirit thinks you should be. This is what you are. Essence loss. It also leaves enough wiggle room for varaible loss for bone lacing, cyberlimbs, whatever.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Blitzen)
The more the body is augmented the more difficult it becomes for the soul to stay attached, either because the augmentations interfere with the link or there is physically less true body there for the soul to attach itself to.
Throw in something about bioware augmentations not counting due to the fact that they themselves are living tissue, and it's a step in the right direction.


QUOTE (Sandoval Smith)
This is how your spirit thinks you should be.  This is what you are.  Essence loss.  It also leaves enough wiggle room for varaible loss for bone lacing, cyberlimbs, whatever.
That's why I liked the Astral Template explanations myself. Your astral template expects your bones to be able to withstand x amount of punishment. Due to your plastic lacing, you can take more, deviating from your template. Your twin brother, who was identical to you in every way until he opted for titanium lacing instead of plastic lacing has bones that can not only take more punishment than what the astral template would suggest, but can take much more punishment.


Also, if they do put out a new in game definition of Essence for SR4, another thing the developers should keep in mind is essence loss due to critter power.

Of course, the popular explanation in this thread "Despite decades of research on the subject, both the fields of medicine and thaumaturgy are still unclear as to the exact nature of Essence Loss, as none of the theories advanced could explain every case," already has that one covered. It has everything covered, really.
mfb
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith)
Still, it really does need some sort of explanation that can stand up to at least a little scrutiny.

oh, yeah. i'm all for a loose definition. "it's got something to do with neurology and the interaction between the body and its astral self" is fine. "it's a measure of how messed up your neural system is, due to changes made by the cyberware" is not.
Arethusa
I'd also appreciate some clarification as to just how defined it is ingame. There is at least some loos precedent (magic) for attributes being clearly defined, quantified, and regulated ingame, even if I think that was a very, very bad design move to begin with. Magic is, ah, subtle, right?

Of course, if that went away in 4th edition...
Ol' Scratch
I'd be happy just dropping it altogether, or simply leave it as an abstract measure of how much stress the metahuman body can handle (be it through implants which permanently lower it, or magic which uses it to see how harshly drain affects it) and be done with it. That's all it really is to begin with, afteralll.
Gildashard
Titanium is an extremely biocompatiable material and is used in most implants. Also used is Stainless Steel, Ceramic, Cobalt Chromium, and Poly-ethylene.

Small wear particles of these materials cause the problems. They often cause bone death and get into the blood stream. Titanium is the most bio compatible, ceramic is good cause it's so hard and doesn't wear much.

The surgury is fairly invasive. Cut the ball off the top of the femur, drill a hole, pound the implant in with a hammer. Drill the ball socket out on the pelvis, cement in a new poly-eythlene or ceramic cup. Sew ya back up and you can walk and run again in a fwe months.

So where's the essence loss? foreign object in the body, invasive surgery, loss of nature body components with artificial?
Critias
Hip implants, huh? How many of those can a person have at once? That's the sort of math we need to figure out just what the Essence cost is.
mfb
only two, before the body simply runs out of room. my god, if a simple hip implant costs 3 essence...!
Skeptical Clown
Trying to force the game world to fit the game mechanics can only lead to insanity. Essence works fine for what it is, and there's really no need to understand it.
Kagetenshi
No more than 2.99, as people can have two.

~J
mallet
Maybe they should get rid of essence all together.

If they really want it to effect the human body/soul then maybe they should have it take points off of stats.

I know, I know I can hear your screams hear in Vancouver, but hear(read) me out.

If Essence is supposed to be this whole mind/body/soul thing which gets weaker the more cyberware, surgery, etc... you have done to you, then shouldn't we just call a spade a spade and have it start to effect the characters Body (str, quic, bod), Mind (Int, chr) and soul (Wil)?

I don't have the exact rules for this worked out, just making this up on the fly, but couldn't they have that certain types of cyberware effect different stats?

Dermal plates drop Chr.? Eye Gun drops Int.?

Or maybe it all only effects Willpower? Willpower basically becomes the new Essence. the more cyber you have the more it drops. If it reaches zero you die. But make it so you can slowly (ie with lots of karma and some sort of personal quest/triumph) you can go up in willpower.

Obviously there are a lot of different details and mechanics to work out in this kind of system, but maybe it would work. It would at least get rid of all the essence "problems" and make cyberware have an effect of what it's supposed to. the human body, mind and soul.
Gildashard
So you could have two knee and two hip implants. Oh, and I forgot shoulder implants, less common but you could have two of those as well.

And this doesn't count trauma products which consist of various screws, plates, pins, and wires.

I wouldn't think that you would lose that much essense, maybe a small amount for the bone loss plus the fact that your body doesn't like foreign objects in there. But maybe .25 for each implant. Bone lacing may fall into this category though it is throughout the body affecting alot of bone.

Now things that "wire" in to the system would be more invasive, like wired reflexes. Replacement eyes, smart links, etc.

Should the loss of a limb cause essense loss? I would think so as you are no longer "whole".

All in all, I think it's how much of the natural body is present, foreign objects in the body, and disturbances in the body's makeup (brain or organ damage, cancer, etc. So in saying this, cyberware may design it's essense loss around these atrributes"


Completeness (Is something removed from the body? bone, tissue, etc. or damaged / diseased)
Invasiveness (Does the body tolerate the foreign cyberware)

Then evaulate each piece of cyberware and decide, how much of the body must be removed and how invasive to the body's equillibrium.

So a hip implant might be
Completeness -.1
Invasiveness -.15


While a replaced limb might be
Completeness -.75
Invasiveness -1.25

A datajack
Completeness 0
Invasiveness -.5

Wire Reflexes
Completeness 0
Invasiveness 1,2,3

Probably too complicated for the rules, might help with cyberware creation to help determine essense loss but ultimately game balance will take priority.
Fortune
QUOTE (Gildashard @ Mar 31 2005, 08:41 AM)
We also do knee implants. So you could have two knee and two hip implants. Oh, and I forgot shoulder implants, less common but you could have two of those as well.

And elbows! Pretty much my entire left elbow is an implant. I don't really know what it's made of or how it works, but I am constantly conscious of it, and it aches almost all the time. It also has a lot less range of movement than my natural one.
frostPDP
Well, the way I've always seen Essence is by the SR3 sort of "a mixture of neurological, spiritual power" etc etc. Don't mind my n00bishness.

The problem I've always seen is that if a sammie gets, for example, both cyberlegs and both cyberarms and then gets bone lacing, he loses the full brunt of it all while paying the essence costs. That's silly, but thats how it goes.

In an ideal "essence system" would be by nature complicated - An arm, for example, would have a certain amount of essence in it (lets say 1 point, since that's what its worth now.) Its not fully worked out, so bear with me and feel free to extrapolate any ideas.

Arms and legs: 1 each
Torso: 2 (most of the organs are located here)
Head: 2 (Houses the brain, which is in my personal view the soul's interface with the world.)

If you get, let's say, Wired 2 (3 essence cost) you have to put the systems and whatnot in certain places. Perhaps 1 point of that has to go to your head, one point to the torso, and a quarter of a point elsewhere (if you get a cyber-arm, then .25 of the 1 point of storage is taken up by the reflexes.) Advanced levels (Deltaware, etc) will reduce the overall cost and thus the cost to each part of the body.

This system is obviously too convoluted to work, which is why they trim it down to a convinent 6 points anywhere-you-want system. Not to mention it always throws into balance that whole "Well if a Mage has 8 points of essence and 6 points of magic, can he get two points worth in cyberware before taking a magic hit?" The answer is probably pretty obvious, buuuut we won't get into that.

Some cyberware costs, however, do need to be addressed. 2+ points for a high level of bone-lacing? If it were replacement, perhaps I'd feel right with that expense. Its not - Instead its a lacing. Perhaps you do need more lacing at a higher level, but if a small bit of plastic gives a small improvement, wouldn't a lot of titanium (which is a lot stronger than plastic) give twice of a lot of protection? (Yes, I make no sense. Bear with me.)

Bone Lacing and Dermal Plating sounded like the coolest things ever until I looked at the cost essence-wise. People get metal plates put in them all the time to hold body parts together, so would that cost essence? If so, a lot or a little?

And as for peg legs having an essence cost, a small titanium shaft is basically a laced-bone, and if you get a wooden peg-leg is it supposed to cost essence? Most peg-legs aren't surgically embedded, I'd figure, but are strapped-on. If that costs essence, I'll eat my hat.

Anyway that's my nuyen.gif nuyen.gif worth
Chibu
So, The only way it makes sense to me is because Shadowrun is the successor (In game history) to Earthdawn. So, I've only been playing ED since Christmas and SR for a couple of years now. But, I've read quite a bit about both. Including Opinions, and Cannon.

The Thing is, The reason that Essence is reduced from ware/trauma, IMO, is that it Alters your True Pattern. Blood Magic does the same. And, the reason that Harlequin doesn't have ware isn't because his Magic Rating would go down (40 down to 34 isn't too bad, When you have 10K years to get better at magic, you get better), The reason that he doesn't have it is because he is a lightbearer (Again, I'm not sure it specifically says that anywhere, but his comments about the Horrors and such make it seem very likely) lightbearers have to take an oath that says that they will never use Blood Magic because it alters their True Pattern. Even though the change is very slight, they still refuse to do it. And we're talking like .01 Essence for doing Blood Magic. So, choosing to completely destroy your astral body (read: True Pattern) must be disgusting to him.

And, Essence can easily, and staying in cannon, Essence is a measure of the integrity of your astral body. Astral Health, if you will. Just as Body is a measure of physical health, Essence if a measure of astral. This can be clearly seen from things such as when assensing someone with ware, you see (if you get enough successes of course) Black spots on a person's aura, on their astral body, indicating cyberware.

I dunno, maybe I'm just crazy (well, i already know that i am, but, that's not important) but, it all seems to make sense to me.
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