 Decking versus Hacking, The change is not needed |
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 Mar 28 2005, 02:22 PM
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#26
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722  |
I actually have no strong feelings about the naming conventions. If the rules are good, that's what counts.
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Mar 28 2005, 02:34 PM
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#27
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Presumably, because they're trying to streamline the system and remove artificial divisions that for some people became so rigid they're almost like *gasp* the dreaded classes. ;) |
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Mar 28 2005, 02:50 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,817 |
I can't see how changing "decker" and "rigger" into "hacker", or decker-hacker or rigger-hacker for that matter, changes anything with regards to the archtypes being "class-like".
The way I see it, you'd stille need to divide the "hacker" into different archetypes, but now you have a word covering several archetypes. |
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Mar 28 2005, 02:44 PM
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#29
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
The term "rigger" wasn't terribly specific anyway. You had drone riggers, vehicle riggers, security riggers, etc. I imagine you'll still see the term rigger come up as a type of hacker who specializes in remote control networks. But rules-wise, they won't be a whole seperate classification.
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Mar 28 2005, 02:47 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,817 |
The rule-change might be well and good, but I still can't see why someone driving a rigged veichle should be called hacker...
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Mar 28 2005, 02:57 PM
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#31
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
How do you know that "rigger", "drone rigger", "decker" and "combat decker" are still going to be archetypes in SR4? Maybe these'll all be things that someone skilled with computers will be able to do. |
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Mar 28 2005, 02:59 PM
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#32
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Don't assume they will be. I don't think I'm breaking my NDA too badly to tell you that I have seen the word rigger used in SR4! Can't say with any certainty that just because I've seen it there, it will be in print, but it definitely hasn't been purged from the memory of Shadowrun. |
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Mar 28 2005, 02:50 PM
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#33
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Why should someone driving a rigged vehicle be called anything, other than driver? I'd welcome a system in which more people, not just the ones with a "VCR" class feature were able to actually drive vehicles on wet pavement... |
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Mar 28 2005, 03:01 PM
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#34
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Everyone CAN drive the car on wet pavement, its driving the vehicle while trying to do anything abnormal that you get screwed on, which I wholely agree with. |
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Mar 28 2005, 03:11 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,817 |
While I agree with calling them drivers, and making it possible even for people without VCR (or the SR4 equalivent) to make difficult combat maneuvers, I still don't like the term hacker.
Hacker is a term that has very little to do with the concept it is supposed to describe in SR4 as far as I know. When sr4 actually comes out, I'll be able to see wether or not they used it in a correct manner, but unitl now all we now for sure is that they're considering replacing decker and rigger with hacker, wich is just plain worng. |
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Mar 28 2005, 03:03 PM
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#36
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
It's pretty well established that the SR driving/piloting rules effectively preclude characters without VCRs from even trying certain things that proficient drivers/pilots routinely do in real life... In particular when the road conditions are anything less than perfect. Meanwhile, characters with a high-level VCR and a vehicle modified for improved handling can crash head-on into a freight train and take no damage. |
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Mar 28 2005, 03:13 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 187 Joined: 30-April 04 Member No.: 6,294 |
While the hapless passengers in back get shaken, not stirred.
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Mar 28 2005, 03:15 PM
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#38
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
I'll chime in here in solidarity with DE. I've also seen the words "decker" and "cyberdeck" in the SR4 manuscripts. WE'RE NOT GETTING RID OF THEM, PEOPLE! We've been telling you this from the beginning, but it's not getting through, apparently. THEIR NAME IS CHANGING. THAT'S ALL. |
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Mar 28 2005, 03:16 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,817 |
Having a high-speed collition "stirring" the back-seat passengers is a pretty mobid mental picture.
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Mar 28 2005, 03:28 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,817 |
Yes Patrick, we're aware that you are not getting rid of them and simply replacing the names. But some of us simply don't agree to the name-change. If this is somehow annoying you, you could just sit back and let us bicker and bitch to our own enjoyment.
BTW, all caps, italic and bold at the same time, isn't just shouting, it's over the top, it's sometimes considered to be less than polite. |
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Mar 28 2005, 03:30 PM
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#41
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Which is just as annoying, if not more so, than my trying to get through to you that all it is is a name-change. And if you don't like the name change, you don't have to use it.
I've only been online in one form or another for about 22 years or thereabouts; thank you ever so much for the etiquette lesson. Of course it's less than polite. That was my intent, since saying it politely several times in other threads hasn't apparently gotten it through to a couple of you. You know who you are. |
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Mar 28 2005, 03:23 PM
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#42
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Y'know all those crazy magical people in Shadowrun? They are all Awakened. Now, some are adepts. Some are voudounistas. Some are shamans or hermetics. But they are all Awakened.
Don't get too caught up in the terms. ;) |
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Mar 28 2005, 03:31 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 187 Joined: 30-April 04 Member No.: 6,294 |
So just keep calling them deckers in your game. This isn't D&D. You want to call the guy who messes around with computers a decker, then go for your life.
Presumably the new streamlined architecture of deckers/riggers made more sense to be called something other than decker/rigger. |
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Mar 28 2005, 04:05 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 313 Joined: 26-February 02 From: UCAS Member No.: 1,015 |
What bothers me is that the terms "rigger" and "decker" are pretty neutral -- both a wageslave and a shadowrunner can be described by them. However (despite much strenuous table pounding from bearded kernel programmers everywhere) the term "hacker" has strong criminal connotations that (judging by the first quote above) are all set to be carried over into the game. Patrick says "we aren't getting rid of them" but the SR4 FAQ seems to state otherwise. Could this mean that "hacker" is being used as a purely OOC mechanical term while "decker" and "rigger" are still the preferred IC nomenclature? In other words: Should we think of "hacker" in Shadowrun as we would "THAC0" in AD&D? |
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Mar 28 2005, 04:11 PM
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#45
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Keep in mind my post above about the term "Awakened." For another example, think of the term "mundane." It's used often on the boards here. But a mundane can be a Face, or a Snoop, or one of many other types of mundanes, and yet still be called a mundane.
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Mar 28 2005, 05:20 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Hey congratulations on your acheivement!! :notworthy: If your representative of the playtesters working on this project, then we are indeed in very big trouble. Hopefully your not truly as dense as your post would suggest. We realize the "class" isn't going away. This topic is about the name change. Did you actually read the topic or did you just drop by to scream innappropriately? Of course I'm fully in agreement that the term "decker" should continue to be used to describe a "computer hacker" whilst the term "rigger" should be used to describe people who do all the wonderful things a rigger can do. Vehicles, drones, sec system, EW and so forth. |
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Mar 28 2005, 05:18 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 187 Joined: 30-April 04 Member No.: 6,294 |
Here's an idea: Wen you go out and buy your copy of SR4, go through the book with a magic marker and scrawl 'decker' over the word hacker every time you see it. It'll have exactly the same effect as if you kept complaining about the name change.
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Mar 28 2005, 05:28 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 202 Joined: 15-September 04 From: East Providence, RI Member No.: 6,664 |
Sheesh, I don't go to many gaming forums where people attack the developers. That's just not cool. We should be happy some of them are chiming in at all. And it's "you're" by the way, not your. Congrats on your spelling acheivement. Anyway, back on topic. My guess is that hacker will be a generic term for anyone who does something while directly interfaced with a computer system, be it driving a vehicle, breaking into a secure system, etc. The term "hacking" could apply to the ruleset that all the subcategories use. Then you can call yourself a decker or rigger or whatever. Another thought: maybe there are still those that use a traditional cyberdeck and are still referred to as deckers. But if you roam the wireless Matrix, you are something altogether different. As the technology evolves, why wouldn't the terminology? If you were on the cutting edge, why would you want to refer to yourself by some old-fashioned name? The Matrix has a complete subculture unto itself. It's easy to envision a whole slew of new lingo based on the new tech. The term "decker" quickly become an insult to those still relient on physical hardware. And maybe these wireless Matrix-users aren't called hackers at all. Maybe there is another name for them that the developers haven't revealed yet. |
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Mar 28 2005, 05:43 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 187 Joined: 30-April 04 Member No.: 6,294 |
The way I figure it, 'hacker' is the term for the rules archetype, encompassing riggers, deckers and other wiz-kids. It seems much simpler given the new ruleset for them to be simply called hackers, ya know?
Jeez, badmouthing the devs over semantics. That's just low. |
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Mar 28 2005, 06:08 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
If that's all you can find to criticize then.....*yawn*? I don't want to insult the playtesters and I do enjoy and appreciate it when they chime in with something other than incoherent screaming and "your all a bunch of know-nothing overreacting children". As for the rest of your post.....nice try. Has terminology evolved with technology in real life? Doesn't seem like it. Hackers still hack anything electronic (wired or wireless), cracking, phreaking etc. Most people don't even know the true definitions of those words and they are VERY vague in the vernacular. Poor choice of word. Period. To drop a franchise word like "decker" for something so ambigous, unimaginative and frankly incorrect is beyond me. |
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