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Shadow
I posted this in another thread and I felt it didn't get the coverage I wanted it to, so I figured a poll would do.



QUOTE
(Patrick Goodman)
QUOTE
deckers -one of the mainstaples of the SR world.



Again, we're not getting rid of them. They are not being removed. They're getting a name change, and a tech upgrade or six, but they are not getting removed, and it was never ever suggested anywhere that they were, at least not by anyone involved with the new edition.


Not to disagree with you but you are getting rid of the name. A name most of us find synonymous with Shadowrun. I know the name is just flavor text but then again, so is the name of the game.

Isn't possible, after seeing the fan outcry of the loss of the name "decker" you could just stop the nonsense of "hackers" and go back to calling it Decking?

I was talking to Doc F. and he was in total agreement with Fanpro about getting rid of the name Decking, saying, "Hey, they are just hackers."

My reply was that most of the specialized terminology in the game could be replaced. Sam's could be Mercs or Enforcers, the game name could be changed to Underworld (since that is what it is really about right?)

Can't you just keep calling them Deckers, please?
GunnerJ
I don't really care, and since abstaining from voting is effectively a vote for change in this case, I picked option two.
Dizzo Dizzman
I happen to like the term decker. It is unique to Shadowrun and I really don't believe that you need to change the name just because they won't be carrying decks anymore. For example, cops don't wear copper buttons anymore, but the name stuck around anyway.

Perhaps the name change might attract a younger audience that identifiers with the popular mythos of hackers. If it works, then I'm all for it.
GunnerJ
QUOTE
It is unique to Shadowrun


Nope. Ripped off from Neuromancer.
Charon
Don't care.

In fact, I'll probably have old timer of the SR universe refuse to let go of the term 'decker' while the new breed definitely will use the term 'hacker'. An easy way to show the generation gap.
GunnerJ
Well, it doesn't make any difference, WRT what term you use, whether it's borrowed. But it's far from unique.
Shadow
It is unique to Shadowrun as the name Shadowrun. @ Gunner, if you dont have something constructive to add, please don't post.
GunnerJ
My pardons, Shadow. From now on I will run any post I intend to make past the Dumpshock Mandarins (for whom you clearly speak) to make sure that they are constructive enough to please you. I will also ask them to update my knowledge of English vocabulary, as I wasn't aware that "unique" could describe a quality present in more than one item; up until now I had assumed that it meant "one of a kind" and that there was nothing else like it. Silly me!
GunnerJ
BTW, @ Charon, sorry there. I initially thought you were responding to me when I made my second post; didn't realize you were making a wholly unrelated comment. And the character who calls himself a decker for anachronism's sake is a cool idea.
Kagetenshi
GunnerJ: In Role-Playing Games the term Decker is unique and distinguishable.

~J
GunnerJ
Qualifiers make all the difference.
kloked1
personally I will keep the term deckers, the way I look at it the term will still apply, much like someone else mentioned cops are still cops even though they don't wear copper anymore, the term would stick.
L.D
You forgot about the: Don't care option. And that's my vote.
Solstice
when you use the term "decker" most RPGers will know instantly you are referring to Shadowrun. If you use the term "hacker" anyone will be subsequently confused by the many facets of real life and RPGs that have been termed thus.
Shadow
QUOTE (L.D)
You forgot about the: Don't care option. And that's my vote.

I didn't forget it, I just assumed if you didn't care (like GunnerJ) you wouldn't vote or comment. I didn't know I would be inundated with people who "don't care" caring.
Grinder
When hackers are more playable (as pc's) than deckers, i welcome them with open arms. smile.gif
DrJest
"You say you want a what? A decker?" laughter "Dude, that's so 2050's. Get with the program, greybeard."

Or in translation, I'll have older veterans still using the term "decker", which the new generation will consider hopelessly outdated and uncool. The older vets, of course, will think the new generation are insolent pups in need of a good slapping.

EDIT: BTW, Shadow, I think the "don't care" comments are more expressing "will be equally happy with either", which is a different kettle of fish and one that might worthily have been included. Put me down for that option.
the_dunner
QUOTE (DrJest)
"You say you want a what? A decker?" laughter "Dude, that's so 2050's. Get with the program, greybeard."

So, if the term decker is 2050's, it makes sense to go back to a term that originated in the 1950's? frown.gif
DrJest
QUOTE (the_dunner)
QUOTE (DrJest @ Mar 28 2005, 06:16 AM)
"You say you want a what? A decker?" laughter "Dude, that's so 2050's. Get with the program, greybeard."

So, if the term decker is 2050's, it makes sense to go back to a term that originated in the 1950's? frown.gif

And you think the New Gen will have the faintest idea?

Today's house music fans don't even know who MARRS were. There are New Metal teenagers who have never heard of Rainbow, for cryin' out loud frown.gif
psykotisk_overlegen
I like the term Decker. Gunner's right, it isn't unique, but among RPGs AFAIK you only find it in Shadowrun. The term Hacker has to many connotations, and many of them are negative. Besides, shadowrun is all about silly and unnescessary slang, I'd like to see words like decker, rigger, street samurai and fixer kept.

BTW, according to my dictionary:
hacker n (infml) a person who uses computers for enjoyment, esp in order to HACK.
By that definition using my computer to read up on dumpshock makes me a hacker.



How have they avoided Rainbow? Rainbow is too cool to be unknown.
GlassJaw
QUOTE
And you think the New Gen will have the faintest idea?

Today's house music fans don't even know who MARRS were. There are New Metal teenagers who have never heard of Rainbow, for cryin' out loud


And is that their fault? I was talking to my 8-year old cousin this weekend and he said he hated Star Wars. He probably has no idea the original movies even exist.

I think FanPro would gladly trade some hardcore fans who hate the name hacker for some new ones who have never even heard the term decker. Regardless of how much SR history you know, it doesn't make the game any more yours than some brand new to the game.
DrJest
QUOTE
How have they avoided Rainbow? Rainbow is too cool to be unknown.


You know it.

I know it.

Now tell those braindead frickin' dweebs with the skull t-shirts.
psykotisk_overlegen
This shouldn't be an new-gen vs. old-gen discussion. IMO the terms hacker and decker are completely different, anyone familiar with the SR world knows exactly what a decker does, but once you go hacking you could be doing anything really. From chopping wood to writing newspaper coloumns.


Not to many NewMetal dweebs with skull T-shirts around here I'm afriad. Besides most of my friends know (and like) Rainbow already, wich is why I don't see how it's possible for youngsters you've appearently met not to.
DrJest
QUOTE
once you go hacking you could be doing anything really


QUOTE
Q. Will riggers be combined with deckers/hackers?
A. Yes, we are removing the distinction between them. This does not mean riggers will go away ó there will still be hackers who specialize in drones, vehicle operations, or security systems. But the protocols, technology, and game mechanics behind them will be the same.


Bingo smile.gif
psykotisk_overlegen
Wich is bad, because you need small specific words, instead of broad categories that will eventually need sub-categories. If we end up calling people decker-hackers or rigger-hackers or drone-rigger-hacker what was the point of changing the terminology in the first place?

Besides, small specific words, even if they're just made up like decker, somehow seem more real than subcategorizing.
DrJest
I actually have no strong feelings about the naming conventions. If the rules are good, that's what counts.
mmu1
QUOTE (psykotisk_overlegen)
Wich is bad, because you need small specific words, instead of broad categories that will eventually need sub-categories. If we end up calling people decker-hackers or rigger-hackers or drone-rigger-hacker what was the point of changing the terminology in the first place?

Besides, small specific words, even if they're just made up like decker, somehow seem more real than subcategorizing.

Presumably, because they're trying to streamline the system and remove artificial divisions that for some people became so rigid they're almost like *gasp* the dreaded classes. wink.gif
psykotisk_overlegen
I can't see how changing "decker" and "rigger" into "hacker", or decker-hacker or rigger-hacker for that matter, changes anything with regards to the archtypes being "class-like".
The way I see it, you'd stille need to divide the "hacker" into different archetypes, but now you have a word covering several archetypes.
Demonseed Elite
The term "rigger" wasn't terribly specific anyway. You had drone riggers, vehicle riggers, security riggers, etc. I imagine you'll still see the term rigger come up as a type of hacker who specializes in remote control networks. But rules-wise, they won't be a whole seperate classification.
psykotisk_overlegen
The rule-change might be well and good, but I still can't see why someone driving a rigged veichle should be called hacker...
mmu1
QUOTE (psykotisk_overlegen)
I can't see how changing "decker" and "rigger" into "hacker", or decker-hacker or rigger-hacker for that matter, changes anything with regards to the archtypes being "class-like".
The way I see it, you'd stille need to divide the "hacker" into different archetypes, but now you have a word covering several archetypes instead of just one or two. (classic and combat-decker)

How do you know that "rigger", "drone rigger", "decker" and "combat decker" are still going to be archetypes in SR4? Maybe these'll all be things that someone skilled with computers will be able to do.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
The rule-change might be well and good, but I still can't see why someone driving a rigged veichle should be called hacker...


Don't assume they will be. I don't think I'm breaking my NDA too badly to tell you that I have seen the word rigger used in SR4! Can't say with any certainty that just because I've seen it there, it will be in print, but it definitely hasn't been purged from the memory of Shadowrun.
mmu1
QUOTE (psykotisk_overlegen)
The rule-change might be well and good, but I still can't see why someone driving a rigged veichle should be called hacker...

Why should someone driving a rigged vehicle be called anything, other than driver? I'd welcome a system in which more people, not just the ones with a "VCR" class feature were able to actually drive vehicles on wet pavement...
Tarantula
QUOTE (mmu1)
QUOTE (psykotisk_overlegen @ Mar 28 2005, 09:47 AM)
The rule-change might be well and good, but I still can't see why someone driving a rigged veichle should be called hacker...

Why should someone driving a rigged vehicle be called anything, other than driver? I'd welcome a system in which more people, not just the ones with a "VCR" class feature were able to actually drive vehicles on wet pavement...

Everyone CAN drive the car on wet pavement, its driving the vehicle while trying to do anything abnormal that you get screwed on, which I wholely agree with.
psykotisk_overlegen
While I agree with calling them drivers, and making it possible even for people without VCR (or the SR4 equalivent) to make difficult combat maneuvers, I still don't like the term hacker.

Hacker is a term that has very little to do with the concept it is supposed to describe in SR4 as far as I know. When sr4 actually comes out, I'll be able to see wether or not they used it in a correct manner, but unitl now all we now for sure is that they're considering replacing decker and rigger with hacker, wich is just plain worng.
mmu1
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Everyone CAN drive the car on wet pavement, its driving the vehicle while trying to do anything abnormal that you get screwed on, which I wholely agree with.

It's pretty well established that the SR driving/piloting rules effectively preclude characters without VCRs from even trying certain things that proficient drivers/pilots routinely do in real life... In particular when the road conditions are anything less than perfect.

Meanwhile, characters with a high-level VCR and a vehicle modified for improved handling can crash head-on into a freight train and take no damage.
Tal
While the hapless passengers in back get shaken, not stirred.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
Don't assume they will be. I don't think I'm breaking my NDA too badly to tell you that I have seen the word rigger used in SR4! Can't say with any certainty that just because I've seen it there, it will be in print, but it definitely hasn't been purged from the memory of Shadowrun.

I'll chime in here in solidarity with DE. I've also seen the words "decker" and "cyberdeck" in the SR4 manuscripts. WE'RE NOT GETTING RID OF THEM, PEOPLE! We've been telling you this from the beginning, but it's not getting through, apparently. THEIR NAME IS CHANGING. THAT'S ALL.
psykotisk_overlegen
Having a high-speed collition "stirring" the back-seat passengers is a pretty mobid mental picture.
psykotisk_overlegen
Yes Patrick, we're aware that you are not getting rid of them and simply replacing the names. But some of us simply don't agree to the name-change. If this is somehow annoying you, you could just sit back and let us bicker and bitch to our own enjoyment.

BTW, all caps, italic and bold at the same time, isn't just shouting, it's over the top, it's sometimes considered to be less than polite.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (psykotisk_overlegen @ Mar 28 2005, 09:28 AM)
Yes Patrick, we're aware that you are not getting rid of them and simply replacing the names. But some of us simply don't agree to the name-change. If this is somehow annoying you, you could just sit back and let us bicker and bitch to our own enjoyment.

Which is just as annoying, if not more so, than my trying to get through to you that all it is is a name-change. And if you don't like the name change, you don't have to use it.
QUOTE
BTW, all caps, italic and bold at the same time, isn't just shouting, it's over the top, it's sometimes considered to be less than polite.

I've only been online in one form or another for about 22 years or thereabouts; thank you ever so much for the etiquette lesson.

Of course it's less than polite. That was my intent, since saying it politely several times in other threads hasn't apparently gotten it through to a couple of you. You know who you are.
Demonseed Elite
Y'know all those crazy magical people in Shadowrun? They are all Awakened. Now, some are adepts. Some are voudounistas. Some are shamans or hermetics. But they are all Awakened.

Don't get too caught up in the terms. wink.gif
Tal
So just keep calling them deckers in your game. This isn't D&D. You want to call the guy who messes around with computers a decker, then go for your life.

Presumably the new streamlined architecture of deckers/riggers made more sense to be called something other than decker/rigger.
Mr. Man
QUOTE (RobBoyle)
And, yes, we are aware that some hackers out there donít like having the term associated with illegal activities ó and SR hackers will primarily be criminals, like other runners. Realistically, however, "hacking" is the term used for exploring, learning, and exploiting, whether itís legal or not, so it fits.

QUOTE (RobBoyle)
Q. Will riggers be combined with deckers/hackers?
A. Yes, we are removing the distinction between them.

What bothers me is that the terms "rigger" and "decker" are pretty neutral -- both a wageslave and a shadowrunner can be described by them. However (despite much strenuous table pounding from bearded kernel programmers everywhere) the term "hacker" has strong criminal connotations that (judging by the first quote above) are all set to be carried over into the game.

Patrick says "we aren't getting rid of them" but the SR4 FAQ seems to state otherwise. Could this mean that "hacker" is being used as a purely OOC mechanical term while "decker" and "rigger" are still the preferred IC nomenclature? In other words: Should we think of "hacker" in Shadowrun as we would "THAC0" in AD&D?
Demonseed Elite
Keep in mind my post above about the term "Awakened." For another example, think of the term "mundane." It's used often on the boards here. But a mundane can be a Face, or a Snoop, or one of many other types of mundanes, and yet still be called a mundane.
Solstice
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman)

I've only been online in one form or another for about 22 years or thereabouts; thank you ever so much for the etiquette lesson.

Of course it's less than polite. That was my intent, since saying it politely several times in other threads hasn't apparently gotten it through to a couple of you. You know who you are.

Hey congratulations on your acheivement!! notworthy.gif

If your representative of the playtesters working on this project, then we are indeed in very big trouble.

Hopefully your not truly as dense as your post would suggest. We realize the "class" isn't going away. This topic is about the name change. Did you actually read the topic or did you just drop by to scream innappropriately?

Of course I'm fully in agreement that the term "decker" should continue to be used to describe a "computer hacker" whilst the term "rigger" should be used to describe people who do all the wonderful things a rigger can do. Vehicles, drones, sec system, EW and so forth.
Tal
Here's an idea: Wen you go out and buy your copy of SR4, go through the book with a magic marker and scrawl 'decker' over the word hacker every time you see it. It'll have exactly the same effect as if you kept complaining about the name change.
GlassJaw
QUOTE
If your representative of the playtesters working on this project, then we are indeed in very big trouble.

Hopefully your not truly as dense as your post would suggest.


Sheesh, I don't go to many gaming forums where people attack the developers. That's just not cool. We should be happy some of them are chiming in at all.

And it's "you're" by the way, not your. Congrats on your spelling acheivement.

Anyway, back on topic. My guess is that hacker will be a generic term for anyone who does something while directly interfaced with a computer system, be it driving a vehicle, breaking into a secure system, etc. The term "hacking" could apply to the ruleset that all the subcategories use. Then you can call yourself a decker or rigger or whatever.

Another thought: maybe there are still those that use a traditional cyberdeck and are still referred to as deckers. But if you roam the wireless Matrix, you are something altogether different. As the technology evolves, why wouldn't the terminology? If you were on the cutting edge, why would you want to refer to yourself by some old-fashioned name? The Matrix has a complete subculture unto itself. It's easy to envision a whole slew of new lingo based on the new tech. The term "decker" quickly become an insult to those still relient on physical hardware.

And maybe these wireless Matrix-users aren't called hackers at all. Maybe there is another name for them that the developers haven't revealed yet.
Tal
The way I figure it, 'hacker' is the term for the rules archetype, encompassing riggers, deckers and other wiz-kids. It seems much simpler given the new ruleset for them to be simply called hackers, ya know?

Jeez, badmouthing the devs over semantics. That's just low.
Solstice
QUOTE (GlassJaw)
And it's "you're" by the way, not your. Congrats on your spelling acheivement.

Anyway, back on topic. My guess is that hacker will be a generic term for anyone who does something while directly interfaced with a computer system, be it driving a vehicle, breaking into a secure system, etc. The term "hacking" could apply to the ruleset that all the subcategories use. Then you can call yourself a decker or rigger or whatever.

Another thought: maybe there are still those that use a traditional cyberdeck and are still referred to as deckers. But if you roam the wireless Matrix, you are something altogether different. As the technology evolves, why wouldn't the terminology? If you were on the cutting edge, why would you want to refer to yourself by some old-fashioned name? The Matrix has a complete subculture unto itself. It's easy to envision a whole slew of new lingo based on the new tech. The term "decker" quickly become an insult to those still relient on physical hardware.

And maybe these wireless Matrix-users aren't called hackers at all. Maybe there is another name for them that the developers haven't revealed yet.

If that's all you can find to criticize then.....*yawn*?

I don't want to insult the playtesters and I do enjoy and appreciate it when they chime in with something other than incoherent screaming and "your all a bunch of know-nothing overreacting children".

As for the rest of your post.....nice try. Has terminology evolved with technology in real life? Doesn't seem like it. Hackers still hack anything electronic (wired or wireless), cracking, phreaking etc. Most people don't even know the true definitions of those words and they are VERY vague in the vernacular. Poor choice of word. Period. To drop a franchise word like "decker" for something so ambigous, unimaginative and frankly incorrect is beyond me.
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