I also the term "hackers" being used unwittingly to recruit the worst sort of AD&Ders into SR. "Dude it's sooo cool we can play l33t h4xorzz!"

that hardly disproves anything. society at large still views that usage of "your" as incorrect, therefore it remains incorrect. society at large views the word "hacker" as referring to someone who does illegal things with computers, therefore that is a correct definition. SCSI was originally intended to be pronounced "sexy". is it incorrect to pronounce it "scuzzy", because of that? no. once a word is introduced into common circulation, the inventor of that word loses any ownership of it that he may have had. his intentions for usage, pronounciation, and everything else don't really matter--what matters is how people use what he created.

The views of the majority of society aren't relevent to the correctness of a term that identifies a group.

Before I get jumped all over for that one..

'Warlock', to a lot of people (I don't have the statistics) is means 'male witch'. Most witches I know, male and female, know that the term originally meant 'Oathbreaker', and don't accept it. It's an insult, and incorrect, and the ignorance of society at large doesn't change that.

It's a fairly extreme example, but in the more general case, it's the views of those in society who know what they're talking about that matter. If you have a society that's 99% ignorant of science, 'magic' still isn't the correct term for why radios work. Just like 'magic smoke' isn't what makes electronics work.

malarky. it's incorrect, if you're a witch. i'm not a witch, and i gives a damn what witches think about the term (i'm not one, so why would i?). i'm a D&D player; to me, a warlock is a class that uses magic without casting spells. if i know somebody is a witch? sure, i'll avoid calling them a warlock, because it's an insult. that's just polite. but i'm not wrong for using the term to refer to a male witch, or a spell-less magic user, or anything else that society at large decides to apply the term to. i'm just not using the witches' definition. words can have multiple meanings and usages.

Yes, but do we really have to sink to the level of "the other game", and use incorrect terms to define one of the most important group of SR characters.

which completely misses the argument that it isn't an incorrect term, unless you're part of a specific subset of general society.

Which has a nontrivial overlap with the small specific subset of general society that is in the market for RPGs.

~J

I am 100% in favor of the name change, and in fact would go further, and suggest that the name of the very game be changed. Shadowrun is sort of old-fashioned and silly anyway.

Yeah, let's call it Shadowrun XP. Much more modern.

And what will the true meaning of hacking be in 65 years?

it will be that special time of year when families and friends come together to share exploits and swap viruses.

that's hardly "the truth", overlegen. while understanding of real-world computers does not automatically engender understanding of SR's Matrix rules, it does tend to engender interest in them, which often leads to understanding. and while there may be more computer nerd RPGers than, say, football jock RPGers, that still doesn't mean that any significant portion of the RPGer population is made up of computer nerds who know and care about the origin and "correct" meaning of any given term.

There are more RPg fans that will be annoyed at the incorrect use of the term than there are RPGers that will become die-hard fans of SR4 due to the name change.
Wich is another reason why changing the name is ridiculous.

sure about that? what about the ones who don't know what the hell a "decker" is and don't care, but get attracted because they do know what a "hacker" is, and are interested in playing one?

I have to agree with Solstice. The "I can't be bothered to read the blurb on the back of the book but I know I like hackers" crowd is not a desirable market segment.

~J

If their cash is good, they're desirable enough for corporate.

Not that simple. I am assuming that they are less likely to buy all of the add-ons (which given my experience with the type is accurate), but there are segments that it is undesirable to prioritize.

~J

That could well be true. I don't actually know any of those (that I know of). I really don't see the need for changing it from Decker to Hacker. Hacker just sounds incredibly cheesy to me. Hell, I think they'd still be called deckers just because that's what the world is familiar with.

Bodyboards are still called "boogie-boards" by lots of people, even though no bodyboard company in their right mind would still refer to their boards as such anymore.

Speculating on what market segments the term 'hacker' appeals to is kind of fruitless; all the reasoning I've seen on the matter is totally specious (unless someone has actually done market research on this...)

Decker (among other terms) has strong ties to the Shadowrun line. And obviously, a certain amount of sentimental attachment for the fan base. So if anyone need ask whether the terminology matters, the fact that there is reaction in the fan base at all answers the question: yes, it does matter. The question is whether or not the fact that it matters to some players matters to those in charge of the decision.

Speaking as one such individual, some people complain just for the sake of complaining no matter how trivial it is. This is one of those cases, and it's identical to the change from "Physical Adept" to "Adept." Yet even to this day, you still see several people around here using the antiquated (and, in my opinion, incredibly lame) "Physical Adept" -- and worse "PhysAd" -- title. Apparently, despite the name change, people are still free to use whatever word they want to describe something.

Imagine that.

Fuck you, Bentham.

I've no problem accepting that some archetypes will be called "hackers" in whatever books come out - I can still call them whatever I like whilst gaming

But one thing does spring to mind..
If the term "decker" is being replaced with "hacker" to make the game more accessible to new players, as "hacker" is considered a criminal by the public in general*.
So a SR-hacker would be the _criminal_ computer intruder - that would be a reasonable description of what most SR-decker-PCs do. But what about corporate deckers and other legit deckers?

It's a minor thing, I know - but it's bothering me in the back of my mind. This will probably be resolved once I get a good long look at SR4. Meh, patience is a virtue.. but it's a long, long, loooong wait (even more so for us stuck in Germany).

*I've worked in IT security long enough to learn quite a few definitions of various terms in the business.. and I've got used to people using whatever word they feel most comfortable with.

one can probably assume that hackers will use the same classification conventions as deckers. if you're a legit hacker, they call you a "legit hacker". if you're a corporate hacker, they'll call you that.

Skeptical Clown, your reasoning doesn't take into account the desire on the designers' part to draw in more new players. you're talking only about existing players--and, as you said, existing players aren't likely to be lost due to the name change. prospective new players, however, might be drawn in by it. by that logic, it was a pretty good idea.

I did, but I don't really have any strong basis to believe that the term 'Hacker' is a significant draw, nor that 'Decker' is a significant deterrent, for new players.

Solstice, you seem to think that words have some sort of inherent, correct meaning, and that that meaning is somehow "protected".

What makes words correct as they are used?

Use, and social acceptance.

Nothing more.
You or I or anyone else can use a word any way we please: if our usage is such that it doesn't conform to the general usage of society, then it's slang.

"Warlock" to practitioners of witchcraft is an insult, not a term for a male witch. The term is generally used to refer to male witches, and has been since the days when openly admitting the practice of witchcraft was liable to get you burned at the stake.
In common usage, it means "male witch".

"Hacker" is (for want of a better term) computer-geek slang for someone who's very technically skilled.
That's how it started off as a word, that's what it still is.
It has come to mean computer criminal in common parlance.

Dutch is functionally identical to a dialect of German, and so similar to Flemish that I know Flemings who say they speak Dutch, not Flemish.
Yet Dutch is considered to be a separate language, not a dialect.

"Correct" only matters in examinations. All that matters in language is coherent meaning. If you understand what I say to mean what I intended, then the words I used, in the context in which I used them, were correct.

On a completely unrelated matter, does anyone know when a definition related to computer use or crime entered the Oxford English Dictionary?

Skeptical, i see it as part of a larger whole. they're in the process of completely reworking the Matrix rules to make them more palatable to new players. part of that is packaging; if it's packaged with the same old names, people will think it's the same old thing and not bother looking at it. if it sounds new, it will garner interest that it wouldn't have, otherwise.

okay. proof? old dictionaries. look through one some time, and you'll find that the definitions in it occasionally don't match up to the definitions we use now. that's how language works. you act like the dictionary was invented, and then all of the sudden, everybody had language.

Incorrect again. That is how dialect works. The literary meaning of the word never changes, it may be added to however. It still doesn't make your point. Just because we know words CAN change (if you say so) doesn't mean that applies or should apply to the term "hacker". I'm saying that it should not. Since this seems difficult for most of you to grasp I'll attempt another of my many examples for some of you intellectual welterweights.

Say a British bloke comes to the US. He asks were the "watercloset" is. the US people stare at him as if he had 3 heads. They finally ask " so you mean the bathroom?"

Brit: "Why no it's a bloody watercloset you bleeming idiot."

US: "You stupid wanker it's a bathroom"

Brit: " well if I was in the UK, everyone would know what I was talking about"

US: "Yes well here it's called a "bathroom""

Brit: "right then....bastard."

So if the Brit knows it by a different name and expects understanding at his word usage does that make the definition different? No, it's still a bathroom by any other name. He is free to use any word he wants, but is not free to expect it to be correct nor expect his term to be more valid than anyone elses.

I'm saying that it works conversely, if a few people believe that the term bathroom (ie hacker) is actually referring to a broom closet (ie cracker or other appropriate term), does that all the sudden make their definition valid? Of course not...A BATHROOM IS NOT A FUCKING BROOM CLOSET REGARDLESS OF HOW MANY WANKERS CALL IT THUS. They can call it that, they can believe that themselves, but they can't expect it to actually be valid in the literal language....it however is free to be a dialectual difference.

I'm spent no more of this nonsense from you people.

Actually I may seem a bit overwrought but I'm almost always like that when I post. I'm usually to lazy to even post at the times when I'm actually docile. I do see your point though I just don't prefer it to work that way of course.

Good old Solstice, you can always rely on him for entertainment. I swear, I should bring popcorn to the computer when I read these boards

The interesting part is that his example actually says, the usage common where you are standing is always the correct one.

So, uh... if by some chance a majority on Dumpshock takes to calling Shadowrun's computer criminal types hackers once SR4 comes out... doesn't that automatically mean that, on Dumpshock, you would be wrong to call them deckers? Just a thought