If it's used as a 'rulebook word' to describe 'techy' types then that is a different issue and one I don't have a problem with. If it's being used in the fiction and fluff to describe what we once knew as 'deckers' than I think that is a bad idea. Of course they don't care what I think.

I think you misunderstood Mr. Goodman. We know you arn't getting rid of the function of Deckers. But it is the name that is going (presumably along with Rigging). That is what the protest and the poll is for. We want the name to persist. We don't like the monicker "hacking" or "hacker". We like Decking and Decker. So what were asking you, and the people who are writing the book to do is go back through and fix it.

Get rid of the Hacker terminolgy, and go back to the way it was, Deckers and Riggers. Change the rules however you want, just leave the NAMES intact. That's what were asking for. Were asking for the flavor text to reamin the same.

I honestly don't understand why you (being the devs) felt the need to change it in the first place. Rules yes, change them all you want. Leave the terms and terminology alone please.

The poll is not flawed. Nobody is standing at the door holding a gun to your head making you choose. If the choice isn't relevant to you DON'T TAKE IT. If you don't care how it turns out, don't vote. I don't understand why this simple idea is so hard for people to grasp.


You are the third person to say the poll is flawed because it doesn't have a don't care option. Well guess what, if you don't care I don't want to hear your opinion, so stay the hell out of the thread you seemingly don't care about!

Because, despite what the subject line says, threads go off-topic all the time. Even if they didn't, people might still be interested in what others have to say on the subject.

Which is exactly what we don't like about it! The new name bites ghoul ass.

Then keep calling them deckers, no one's gonna stop you!

People, it's not like we're even talking about a character class, here! There wasn't much hubbub when D&D changed it from "Thief" to "Rogue" for third edition, and that is at least an official name of an official class that's gotta be written on every third page and slapped onto every character sheet. "Decker" or "Rigger" or "Hacker" is a job, a profession, a hobby. An archetype, at best, a skill description more realistically.

It's not that big a deal. I've referred to my mundane-but-cyberneticall-augmented-military-trained-shooter-killer-guy by a half dozen different job titles, easily. From razorboy to street sam to merc to just 'shooter.' The classless nature of Shadowland makes the decker/hacker change negligible.

It's only as big a deal as you make it. It's like secretaries who get all in a huff and demand to be called professional assistants, or stewardesses changing to flight attendants. If you let it bug you, it bugs you. If you realize it's no big deal, it stays no big deal!

It's a branding issue, not just some whim here. They're taking away something clearly identifiable as Shadowrun for no fucking reason. So they don't use decks? Big fucking deal. As the meaning of the word "hacker" as compared to its usage demonstrates, slang pays no attention whatsoever to the fiddling little details like the namesake hardware no longer being in use.

Branding is a big deal, and all of your "it doesn't matter" handwaving won't change that.

~J

Imagine, if you will, little Billy. Billy is a gamer, but unbeknownst to Billy he exists in two separate versions of the world: one in which computer specialists in Shadowrun are called Deckers, one in which they're called Hackers. Billy plays a game of Shadowrun. He plays a decker, and he loves it.

Five years pass. He doesn't remember the system, but he remembers his character and how much fun it was. His group is looking to play a new system. Billy pipes up.

"Hey, there was this great game I played once. I don't remember what it was called; I played a…"

World 1: he says "hacker". The story ends. There's no reasonable way to take that information and determine what game he played. Pretty much any game that has computers in it is a possibility.

World 2: he says "decker". Anyone in the group with even a passing familiarity with Shadowrun, anyone who has even read the back of the core book, will recognize the name and be able to identify the system.

~J

It is not incorrect. The term has evolved. Get used to it -- words and concepts change with time.

It doesn't matter what you (with "you" being the people whining about it being the incorrect term because they think it's an insult) want to call yourself. It's what others call you. And for the vast majority of people, "hacker" refers to computer criminals.

Would you prefer "Experienced gamers"?

If you want people to play RPGs and spend lots of money on it, the earlier you can involve them in the hobby, the better.
I started playing SR when I was around 15 or so (I'm starting to go senile, so I can't remember exactly when it was...definitely before Ireland discovered the existence of the Internet...).
When I was 15, I thought 24 was "old".

No your incorrect. Besides, just because the term has been used incorrectly in the media for 15 years doesn't mean that becomes the correct way.

It's not an insult to anyone it's simply a matter of definition. Again, it doesn't matter who wants to call who what. It's simply the wrong definition. You can't use a work incorrectly for a long enough time and then just pretend it's correct. I don't at least. If you want to sound like an idiot then go head.

What then 16 years? 17? To the vast majority of people the word hacker does indeed bring to mind a computer criminal, just like witch brings to mind a green skinned wart nosed hag in a pointed hat.

Yes my son, this is called a misnomer. Perpetrated by the media for effect.

I refuse to recognize the incorrect definition of a word just because it's been used in the media because it sounds evil. Now that seems logical. You on the other hand do not. "Hey, I'll call a pig a horse and after a few years a pig will no longer be a pig but a horse...of course!"

It already has more than one CORRECT meaning. That doesn't mean it can be a catch all or that you can just attach meaning to any word you want. And no, not everyone who speaks English will know that "pig" is a slang term for police. They may know other terms sure but colloquialisms(sp) and the vernacular may not contain the same terms as ours. Thus, in the case of "hacker" we shall not allow the misue of the word to bleed over from the vernacular into the literary meaning of the language.

Now your just making hasty generalizations. Just because we can say that languages evolve yes, does not make the case that this use of the word is ok to have now. Nor does that mean it's OK for misue of a word by a certain number of people to become the literary meaning. This argument is on the verge of becoming circular in nature so please present some logical evidence as to why we should accept that a pig is a horse now because it has been called so for x amount of years.

Oh i've looked it up many times. I think it is an incorrect usage. The correct term and the context in which it was intended to be used will follow.

crack·er
n.
A thin crisp wafer or biscuit, usually made of unsweetened dough.
One that cracks, especially:
A firecracker.
A small cardboard cylinder covered with decorative paper that holds candy or a party favor and pops when a paper strip is pulled at one or both ends and torn.
The apparatus used in the cracking of petroleum.
One who makes unauthorized use of a computer, especially to tamper with data or programs.


This is the correct term for illicit use of computers. It has been ignored by the media and the term hacker has been bastardized by them to fit sensationalization of their stories. It doesn't matter how many people accept it...it doesn't make it correct now. Hacker was never and is not a term pertaining to illicit activity only. Therein lies the error.

*EDIT* did you get that from a childrens dictionary? LOL "one that hacks". That is really funny.

As am I.

Hacker ...

Agreed, and the media use is 'correct' from the official stance on the language.

the issue at stake between hacker/cracker/phreaker is related to the community of computer enthusiasts itself.

my (admittably biased, since I come from the category of 'builders' more so than 'breakers') is that a hacker engineers software, a cracker compromises software, and a phreaker (if in a circle that doesn't use this term, sub cracker) is a script-kiddie (more vernacular, yay!) who can't code their way out of a paper bag, uses the tools their betters have made, to accomplish trivial things like dumping a .vbs into their school computer to change the screen saver or background to something crass.

of those I know in the second category (which can be legal. if you have rights to source, you can 're-engineer'/destruct all you like.) who use hacker as a way of associating with the first category, ('builders') and those who use cracker as a way of disassociating with the first category. almost all of these people just use 'script-kiddie' over phreaker, (since phreak is kind of a clunky word in the first place)

note that anyone who uses 'leet' except in an obviously sarcastic manner is typically categorized as a script-kiddie immediately.


strayed off topic a bit, but the war between Hacker/cracker is only in the community the terms actually apply to, it's been long over in the media.

(thanks to movies like 'hacker' and news) Sadly, as a combined result of cracker having superficial similarity to a racial slur, and the fact that only illegal computer use has ever been 'newsworthy' in most circles, hacker was the term chosen by the media for illegal computer use.

I maintain that if you found a true member of category two, and asked if they were a hacker or cracker: they'd be equally likely to say: "Hacker, cracker is such a lame term" as they would "Cracker, hackers are just greybeard kernel programmers with no sense of style".

Um, no. A phreaker compromises the phone system. They're mostly obsolete since the early '90s when the phones stopped using audible tones for command signaling, but they've got absolutely nothing to do with script kiddies.

~J

Yes.
I don't think I made my main point clear. Decker feels Shadowrun, it sounds Shadowrun, It is Shadowrun.
Hackers is a bad movie and that's the first thing I think of when I hear that word. Second, I think of how it's wrong.
And before you say it, yes, it was a bad movie.