Even if we can for arguments sake agree that using hacker as name for computer criminals is correct (not that I do, but this all for the sake of argument).
Is that term really suitable as a name for a whole group of different SR character types, namely everyone involved with computers. According to the devFAQ it's also going to be the name of the group containing riggers, deckers and all charcters using the new streamlined computer/electronics rules.

Now, even if hacker can for arguments sake be used as a substitute for decker, can it function as a name for the whole new group?

No!

Calling everyone who uses computers, building security systems, drones, vehicles and electronic warfare a hacker is going to cause huge (IC) confusion. If a Johnson wants 'a hacker' what does he mean? A 'decker', a 'rigger' an electronic warfare expert or what?

That's like saying all "adepts" are the same...

But this is exactly what they are doing! Riggers and Deckers are all now hackers!
I'll say this again, this is lame. If someone (in the know) could explain the real reason for this, it would be great. And I don't mean the "were trying to bring in a younger crowd" crap. That is not a reason to change a staple of Shadowrunning.

I know Adam and Bull are pretty busy, but could you guys ask and maybe explain it to the community, and while you are at it, check the pole. As of right now, well more than half of the people voted for Deckers, not Hackers.

I'm a hacker of the decker's way.

Through all the reading I’ve been doing, Forum posts, official FAQs and playtester info I’m starting to get the impression that the term Hacker is simply being used as a catch all word to describe the core mechanics behind Riggers and Deckers similarly to how the term Awakened functions for Shaman, Mage and Adepts. Assuming that this info posted by Bull (aka forum jokester) is not just BS, this may just prove it.

Ok, new poster here, wading in BIG time to all the comments here.

Firstly, to address the topic of the thread (shock!!): I'm a little confused as to how the devs are going to pull this off in-world. Are they denying that riggers, deckers and wot-not have been referred to as such over the last fifteen or so years? If so, then I'm not a happy bunny. That's the kinda reason why I'm happy to stick with the original World of Darkness stuff rather than jump on the WOD 2 bandwagon (I liked the original stuff, there's nothing in the new stuff that pertains to my old rules, so why bother?)

If, however, there IS a convincing reason in-game for the change in nomenclature, then I can live with it. I'm happy to go the way various others have suggested, with the new kids strutting round calling themselves hackers while the old-schoolers sit in the back remember the good old days of decking...

In short, I'll wait and see. The out-of-game reasons for the name change are all too apparent, in terms of attempting to draw new blood and so on... but I'm not so sure we old sea-dogs should be ready to throw in the towel just yet, merely because of a small detail like that. As someone else pointed out, the adept moniker got changed to refer purely to physads, while shamanic adepts became shamanists (which IS a horrible term, I'm sorry!), hermetic adepts became... well, they kinda became elementalists, but not... and I don't remember too many people in my gaming group throwing their arms up in the air. At the end of the day, though, all those terms were largely OOC: I don't remember anyone saying IC :I'm a shamanic adept OR I'm a shamanist (hell, is there a GOOD term they could use to define these guys??)

OK, now drifting slightly off-topic, but I feel I have to address one particular sub-thread of this conversation.

Solstice: You are very wrong indeed. If enough people called what has been previously known as a cat, a 'dog', and did so for enough years, then eventually - and I'm sorry to tell you this - it would become a DOG. the only thing which defines a word, and I do mean it's literary definition, is the agreed common usage of a word. Dictionaries - largely considered the repository of literary definitions - base themselves on common usage. This is why the Oxford English Dictionary has words such as Cowabunga! or Bootylicious in it (I kid you not, though I wish I did). So, if over the course of the next fifty years, we all began to call cats, 'dogs'... then the ACTUAL LITERARY DEFINITION of the word 'dog' would change to mean an animal of the felis genus. We'd just have to find something else to call our canine pals...

So as to the 'rightness' of the term hackers... while I appreciate it has a very specific meaning within a given subculture/community.. that is not the community which necessarily defines our language. Words can and do have many meanings: they are misappropriated all the time, and the misappropriation tends to become the accepted - and therefore correct - usage. You want an example? take the word 'momentarily'. Over on my side of the pond, this mean 'for a short time'. On the other side of the Atlantic, however, it means 'in a short while'. now, this may seem like quibbling, but can you imagine my surprise when I came to the States, to learn that TV programs would be back for a short while before the next ad break (actually, now I think on it, that's fairly accurate!!). The point is, NEITHER definition is correct or incorrect... they are merely different, and used in different contexts.

And as a final note... if ANYONE over here asked me to show them the water closet? I think they'd have wet themselves by the time I stopped laughing at their archaic ass and pointed them in the right direction!

Jon-boy

Thats great, but all adepts abilities spawn from the same place, magic. People who use computers to break into corporate headquarters have no skills in common with people who drive for a living.

What does a Driver/grease monkey have to do with a Computer Geek? Absolutely nothing. So why are they being lumped into the same category?

Because not all Riggers are "grease monkey drivers," for starters. I mean, shit. Not all Riggers were the same -- some liked electronics more than engines, some liked buildings more than tanks, some were pilots instead of drivers. The only thing they had in common with each other was that they plugged themselves into other stuff, and made it dance in ways no normal human could start to.

Deckers did the same, with computers. Often -- very often, in my experience and, in fact, in the novels as well -- the two overlapped. Someone could hack past a building's Matrix security (decking), to shut down certain countermeasures (decking), and then run rampant with the physical features of the building (rigging), use it's own security measures for the team (rigging), etc, etc... They overlap quick a bit, like it or not.

It's not "grease monkeys" and "computer geeks" -- those are both just generalizations, stereotypes of one class of one portion of one of the two slanger terms (which is all rigger and decker are, don't forget) that we're talking about.

The two have, except for at their most extreme edges, always had quite a bit in common, and often been largely interchangeable for the team in a pinch (like a bard and a rogue, or whatever, to use D&D terms). Riggers have had a deck thrust into their hands and been expected to handle the Matrix, Deckers have had whatever's handy plugged into their skull and been expected to handle anything electronic or mechanical. Now, the two will be able to do so very very well, due to the changes in interface technology...

... so the name is changing. Deal.

what does a diver/grease monkey have to do with a computer geek? besides the obvious potential for a romantic comedy, there's the fact that they both plug their brains into computers. i mean, how much more similar can you get?

I think that if these new rules make it such that a rigger automatically is a decker and vice versa they will be problematic, limiting player choice in charachter creation. If they make it such that riggers and deckers are on a fairly continuous spectrum with a good amount of overlap, like sam's & merc's or athletic/stealth and fighter types they will be good.

Thus if someone makes a "getaway driver" type rigger (aka non-drone rigger) they won't end up being a great decker automatically, but a rigger who uses lots of remote control will necessarily have to pick up more computer networky skills. A computer breaking specialist will need to know some of the skills of a drone rigger, but not necessarily have all the skills & boosting cyber to make them the best at it.

It's just like it is now for any general category of character. You can either suck at everything, be decent in a few areas, or kick ass ine one or two areas. You won't be able to kick ass in all areas without ridiculous levels of karma/experience under your belt.

Or to put it in a clearer example: Say you have a total of 12 Hacker skills, and 12 points to blow on 'em. You can put 1 in all 12, 3 in four of 'em, or 6 in two of 'em. What you can't do is put 6 in all 12 of 'em.

And that ignores any special implants or equipment each skill would rely on (or, more correctly, use to greatly enhance that skill), too.

right. but! a getaway driver will have the basic hardware (if not the skills) to do the basic work a computer hacker's job, and a computer hacker will have the basic hardware (again, not necessarily the skills) to interface with a vehicle. the computer hacker might not be able to interface with a vehicle as well as a getaway driver could, but he could still do it at some level.

I voted to keep them deckers because fundamentally it's part of shadowrun's Identity. "Decking" is part of what makes shadowrun shadowrun. it's atmospheric. Changing the name makes it less "shadowrun" in a peripheral sense, and I think that's a very bad thing™.

I'd like to point out that gearheads of today are adept at computers, since those are what control their cars. They tweak and compile, run programs and build models. I only imagine this trend continuing. In 2070 one will need to be an expert at computers to enhance their skills, above and beyond customizing the rigging interface we have building and protecting drone networks, improving and subverting drone pilots, autosofts and so on. Essentially, vehicles of the future are more computers with wheels or jets than anything.

And finally, I think they will have a crucial piece of cyberware in common: a simrig.

I wouldn't call a drone pilot an embedded system.

the droneheads of tomorrow use the Computer skill to increase the chances of their drones knowing what to do.

What do riggers do? They "jump into" machines and make them perform well beyond their normal limitations.

What do deckers do? They "jump into" machines and make them do what they're not supposed to do.

Note the first four words of each description in particular. Now imagine what happens if the protocols and software of all the machines and implants each one of them uses became universal like, say, with the WMI storyline. At that point, the only major difference comes from your B/R skills and background knowledge of your particular specialty. A rigger will focus more on vehicle repair, learning roads and smuggling routes, and how to bypass physical security. A decker will be more focused on computer and electronics repair, learning system layouts, and how to defeat IC.

Both are essentially the same in what they have the potential to do, yet neither is truly like the other whatsoever.

It really creeps me out when we agree, Doc. Please stop.

When he's right, he's right.

What he's right about though, is the lumping of everyone who directly interface with electronics or comouters into one big group. This thread was started because some people are unhappy about calling this group "hackers".
The word hacker will generaly mean something like "anyone who jacks into machines", wich is so far from todays meanings it's stretching the credibility of the fictional SR universe quite a bit. While I'm not saying all of SR should be realistic, I think it ought to refrain from misusing words.

So one one hand people're mad they're using an old slang term, and on the other hand people are mad they're giving an old slang term a new meaning. Weird. Do you like old stuff, or new stuff? You have to pick one.

And just 'cause the thread started talking about one thing doesn't mean it doesn't evolve (just like language) and turn into a conversation about something else, given enough time and activity. In recent pages, the whining shifted from complaints about the name change, to confusion over the lumping together (and complaints about it). Thread topics, just like language, change over time.

My thoughts in line-item, its-late-at-night form.

1: I remember first hearing "decker." It took my play group, or rather the all-but-two-of-us-who-were-new-to-the-game, roughly 30 seconds collectively to go "Decker. Must be hacker." Even if we didn't figure it out from the similarity of the name, the concept was fairly easily explained - Plug a computer into your head and ride your deck like an internet surfboard, something like that. It even sounded cool, to be something less mundane than "hacker."

2: Hacker sounds nice, but it also is too modern. If we're looking for something new, why fall back to something old. All deckers hack, not all hackers deck.

3: Cyber-decks will be mostly rid of, but I can guarentee that a good GM with a good plot will find at least one case where you need someone with the old-school technique. Why? Easy! There are many secure systems out there which will not upgrade to a wireless matrix for all the Nuyen in Dunkie's will. Never, it would compromise their security way too much, firewalls and all (As someone who watches kids in his college classes sit in chatrooms whiel they take notes, as well as someone who's borne witness to the havok even a small-range wireless network can cause to security, I don't think a wireless system is ever going to be equally secure, period.) not to mention their having no reason to upgrade to the new system - They would be uneffected by the crash. So for whatever reason, a Decker WILL wind up being necessary. At least in my crazy train of thought.

4: I, personally, like the idea of a cyberdeck. Maybe miniaturize the older ones a little (I.E. Cranial-size as opposed to full) but I find it awesome how independent yet dependent it is. Granted, any fool with a datajack can play at decking, but at the same time that can easily enough be fixed by diversifying the godly "Computer" skill or adding a few other little things.

5: Deckers can essentially sport both a VCR and Wired, especially later on. Granted you aren't going to do well with Wired 3 and VCR 3 unless you can somehow get your hands on Delta, but that's part of the "gee, maybe we don't need super-killing machines left and right!" game schematic.

And 6: Lingo is good. Decker might or might not be unique to SR overall, but I certainly haven't heard it elsewhere in the gaming world. Matrixers or Maxers or something else might suffice but I doubt it will ever have the ring of "Decker" to my ears.

So all in all, I say "keep it. There's no great reason to change it. Wireless nets are great but limited in functionality." Then again, they could be onto a miracle...LOL

The merging is ok. Deckers and Riggers were very close anyway. It's the name change I'm having a problem with.
I assume it'll all be based on what skills you take, High computers = Decker, High Remote Operations = Rigger. Something like that.
This is all assuming it will continue to be skill based system. If it's a class based system, I'm not going to care, because I won't be playing.

The same reason they don't call Street Samuri sworders/gunners, changed nuyen to buystuffwithiters, or changed Stuffer Shacks to sellscheapfooders -- because Hacker is an actual title based upon who and what they are, not what they use to do it with.

First time I heard UCAS I thought "UCAS. Must be USA." First time I heard nuyen I thought "Nuyen. Must be money." Your argument above suggests that the names should be what I compared them to initially.

~J

General association is a great thing, which is why they used a name like "decker" rather than "hacker." Like Nuyen and Yen, they're similar so you can easily enough intuit what is meant yet different so it isn't "Oh look a hacker, just like in the 20th century! How quaint!" It has a taste of the original which makes it more palatable to swallow.

Why does Mazda call their car a Tribute while the same thing (literally, the same car with a little different markings) made by Ford get called an excursion (fact checking - Not sure if this is the name)? So that it has some flavor.

Admittedly i'd prefer they stay deckers. Its just a term i've come to associate with shadowrun, like "rigger" or "devil rat".

However, even if they do change, i'll still wind up calling them deckers out of habit. If i'm anything, its set in my ways.

That, or they had no clue that a more appropriate word would develop in the English language at the time. I'm just glad we don't have "Console Cowboys" or any of the other equally lame terms used to describe them. You know, other terms that they tried to coin before "Hackers" became a mainstay in the people's lexicons.

It's a good change that will only lessen confusion for new players. But some of you guys can't handle change very well, so... it's to be expected. I'm totally behind it, though, for every reason mentioned throughout the thread, and I'm glad the designers are at least looking to improve the game in small ways like this one.

I'm totally behind the streamlining and grouping of the various tech oriented professions.

Though, I'm totally against the name change.

Hacking is what they did in the last century when the net was two dimensional, and not everyone had access.

Decking is what they do in the three dimensional world of the modern omni-present SR matrix.

Wanna get into semantics?

Hacking is what they do. Decking is what they used to use to do it (but not necessily anymore). One fits throughout the entire history of the "class," the other is being thrown to the side like yesterday's news.

Hacking describes them perfectly. Decking is a silly term that most of you are only fond of because of familiarity and nostalgia. Ignore the fact that it's wholly in appropriate for all of the other subtypes of hackers that the term will now be covering. Riggers, tech-wizs, gadgeteers, thieves specializing in security systems, and electronic warfare-types should all be deckers? I don't think so. But all of you riling up to "keep the old name!," that's what you're basically demanding.

We are Deckers also! (riggers with remote control _Deck_ cry)

Seriously, I liked neither _Decker_ nor _Hacker_ name. The former is too tied with SR tradition and the letter is tied with too old (previous Century) slang.
I prefer tech-wizs in SR4 have new name. If it isn't possible, they should crippled with _Decker_ name of '60, even if they don't use any deck no longer...

Samurai, Mage, and Shaman are all way older terms than Hacker is. Way, way, way older. Not to mention Private Investigator, Bodyguard, Mercenary, and pretty much every other archetypical title in the game.

Quite honestly, the comp geek community needs to get over itself. Yeah hacking isn't the technically correct term for cracking, but its not going to really change now. Much like how japanese anime industry hates the fact that otaku has become synonymous with 'huge dedicated fan' in America even though its correct meaning is 'crazed stalker-like fan'.

I mean I call myself a hacker because its what I do well, I recode or tweak other people's stuff, rather than a programmer because I'm not nearly as good at ground up coding. But I use it contextually, when I know people understand the difference, not in general conversation. Like I have a number of Hacks for phpBB out there. On the unofficial but highly regarded hack site, they are Hacks, no one cares about public image and everyone knows what it meant by it. The few on the official site are titled as Mods however because they know the negative stereotype that's out there.

As to whether or not to use it for Shadowrun, eh, why not? In both the subculture sense and the common perception sense, it works. I can see some corp hacker getting totally bent out of shape because the corporate lawyer has asked him to not use 'that word' that's associated with all the lawbreaking kids out there messing with the new Matrix. As for encompassing riggers, the street mod crowd does actually refer to 'hacking the engine' today, nothing says they wouldn't continue.

--//[改]>

[EDIT] - God its too early to remember spelling...

but not as big a selling point as "you can actually understand this game".