Questions we'd like answered in the FAQ.... Options

[Dawnshadow]

[Eldritch]

Heh, you guys are tryong to wrap the real world around game mechanics...It's a game system, not really meant to emulate real world physics/combat/etc - it's a games system.

I don't really think they've messed too much with initave, but thats just a guess.

I'm really more interested in what the plan is with magic - in partiuclar at char gen. what is the effect of having to buy up magic points? What effect will one point vs 4, vs 6 be on the character? When does astral perception/projection kick in? At one point, or is it staged as your magic increases? Does that mean that a mage that looses magic points faces the possiblity of loosing the abilty to project? As their 'spirit' becomes more blooged down by the cyber....

Magic is a big piece of the Sr world, I'd consider it the defining piece. I'd really like to know how they are changing it, and if the changes will be explained in game, or they will just be rules changes and left at that...

Mage a: "Grounding? Whats that?"
Runner b: "Thats what happened last year when that shamen fragged you in astral space and us poor slobs guarding your meat got zapped."
Mage a: "I'm sorry, I don't know what you're talking about....."

[Hell Hound]

[hahnsoo]

[Eldritch]

[Dawnshadow]

Doesn't happen. It's immensely difficult to change an action once you're committed. They have a far better chance at starting to change what they're doing -- but actually changing it? Not likely. They have to change their own momentum -- the most optimistic for their side, is that they don't have to oppose their current momentum, and so are only a partial action behind where they would normally be. The more realistic, following from the same path, is their reflexes kick in and they start to move backwards to avoid the blow, as an example. This is not 'from still' though, this is from 'attack', so they have to arrest their own mometum first... and they're nailed, because even with faster transmission of signals, they've just taken up the advantage from faster signal travel from brain to body.

And, Hell Hound, the game mechanics already penalize people for it. Combat pool has to be very carefully rationed when you've got 4 initiative dice and reaction near 20. It penalizes the defender equally, which I disagree with to an extent, but but can live with.

I like the suggestion of making initiative dependent on skill to an extent, but I don't entirely see the point -- since right now, counterattacking is all the person with low initiative can do.

Everything I can think of that would give the attacker an advantage, well, short of surprise, applies to the defender more so, from everything in my own experience. Unless you really are that much physically faster (not reaction or initiative), it's really hard to overwhelm someone. Nobody just stands there and lets you throw attack after attack (at least, nobody who's trying to win). They interrupt the flow of your attacks and try to turn the flow around.. because you don't win a fight by blocking and dodging. Exceptions exist, but they aren't common.

[Hell Hound]

I have always felt that Initiative must to some extent imply speed. Not running speed, since that has as much to do with limb strength as with how fast the limbs move, but how quickly you could throw a punch or kick, or draw a weapon, or any of the other physical actions you can perform in combat. Wired Reflexes changes how many physical actions you can perform in each combat round so it must influence your speed, if your limbs still move like your wading through mud then it won't matter how fast messages are transferred down the nervous system, your not going to get in extra moves.

I also don't think the game mechanic does penalise characters with low initiatives. Certainly counterattacking is all a character with low initiative can do in a melee, but that is all they need to do. A counterattack allows you to hit your opponent back, and there's no limitation on damage or how often you can counterattack. Both combatants have to split their combat pools up amongst all the attacks, thus advantage goes to the fighter with the biggest combat pool, regardless of their initiative. You are right that some fighting styles are reactive, they wait for the opponent to come to them, but even a practicioner of such an art should find themselves hard pressed when dealing with someone who is three times as quick as they are, and that's how fast Wires can make you.

I'm not saying counterattacks should be removed, far from it. I think the SR combat system is better than any other system I have played (which admittedly is not a hell of a lot). To be honest I rarely encounter this situation, the players I have GMed tend to just shoot people rather than get that close. But I would like to see even martial arts masters forced to think twice before taking on a halfway decent fighter with wired reflexes.

[Dawnshadow]

Someone going slow as mud doesn't get the same benefits from wired reflexes.. reaction, and therefore initiative score, is partially dependent on quickness after all.

Likewise, I don't see why it needs to increase the speed of someone's actions. I can see people reacting faster, see them launching attacks faster, but I don't see how speeding up the signals would make the body faster -- or why it should. A portion of the time taken is mental activity, another portion is lag time for signal transfer - those two get cut out. The twitchiness overrides the mental activity, the lag time is reduced directly. I don't think the combat turn (3 seconds) is so short that it requires superhuman speed to get multiple actions. I picture, especially in melee, a certain amount of feinting, give and take, and time spent not on the attack or defense. Someone with the initiative boosts, tends to launch more attacks -- they see the opening, they attack. They react too fast for the hesitation that leaves you missing legitimate openings. They don't, however, have any faster motion of hand or foot -- that's exactly like running speed.

Initiative boosts make sense in ranged combat, but in melee they're potentially a serious liability because of the combat pool issue. You can't attack someone 5 times and throw in max combat pool, or even close to max, in one combat turn.

Low initiative.. you can. But then you're screwed on the counterattack. The 'penalty' to low initiative people fighting high initiative people is based on them in theory never knowing how many counters they have to make-- they therefore can't judge how much combat pool they can use. Applies differently in different games.. ours, we can guess usually within an action, just by order of events. Not always -- and usually it's restricted to the high end. We can't judge if someone's got low initiative or not. Nobody has low enough to give a benchmark, unless injured. The slowest is 11+3d6.

[Hell Hound]

You can judge an opponents initiative fairly easily actually. If they act after you in the first initiative pass they are going to have the same or fewer actions than you, if they act before you they will have the same or more actions. Once the first combat round has passed, unless your opponent deliberately did nothing for their last one or two attacks you are going to have a very good idea how many moves your opponent has, and If you have fought that opponent before then you know before the fight even starts what you can expect (unless something has significantly changed their initiative).

I can see we are not going to agree on this issue, I feel that things like wired reflexes or improved reflexes (the adept power) should improve a characters physical speed in addition to improving nervous system response, and therefore should provide benefit in melee combat irregardless of combat pool or skill rating. You feel that wired reflexes is solely improvement of nervous system response and so should not be of any advantage in melee, and possibly be detrimental. I don't see anything changing our repsective points of view any time soon and to be honest we have kind of hijacked this forum from it's original purpose. It's probably time to let it rest.

[Dawnshadow]

Probably, Hell Hound. It has been interesting though.

[sapphire_wyvern]

[Hell Hound]

OK, time to try and make up for some of the space I've chewed up in my off topic discussion. Not that I didn't find it interesting as well Dawnshadow.

Shadowrun consists of a lot of sourcebooks that contain optional rules and large amounts of gear. Naturally the rules are pretty much history as a result of the changes being made for fourth edition but what about the gear? I doubt that all the cars, bikes, drones, helicopters, planes, boats, APCs, submarines, guns, knives, cyberware, bioware, nanoware, armour, electronics, alchemical radicals and every other little piece of equipment that has appeared in all the various SR sourcebooks is going to end up in the one main rulebook. I understand there is a new Magic sourcebook planned for 4th edition, so what about equipment? Are we going to see another edited reprint of the Street Samurai Weapons Catalogue and similar equipment books or will the main rulebook have rules for adjusting existing gear (like altering damage codes for weapons, if the damage system actually changes). At least some pieces of equipment are going to have to change, Smartlinks for example currently alter the target number for firearms tests but apparently SR4 is going to have a fixed target number.