 Damage Codes, Some ideas |
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 Mar 29 2005, 12:03 AM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465  |
One of the things I like about SR is how damage is represented with the Damage Codes. You can almost immediately know by looking at them how powerful a weapon is instead of having to calculate if "2d6" was better than "3d4". My only real reservation is how little room SR leaves to fine-tune them. The idea i've toyed with changes a few things but keeps inline with existing SR mechanics.
Here's my idea: Scale up Power Level, Wound Level, Total Player Boxes and Armor Ratings by a factor of 10 and replacing "L", "M", "S" and "D" with numbers instead. This allows for "more room" and flexiblity in determining Power and Wound Levels. 5L becomes 50L or 50-10, 8M becomes 80M or 80-30. Armor would work in the same manor; 5/3 becomes 50/30. To determine the TN for the Resistance and Dodge Tests, you'd need to divide the resultant Power Level by 10 (round up). In the interest of streamlining SR4, this could be applied across all damage calculations. I think this would allow all sorts of weapons and ammunition types to exist and still keep the system relatively simple. This would also introduce a new variable way to tweek Wound Level since now you could take over Light and under Moderate (11-29) damage. Some example Damage Codes: 5L = 50-10 9M = 90-30 12S = 120-60 18D = 180-100 You could also have things that don't currently exist and could let ammo type directly adjust these values: 55-15 (between L and M) 95-25 (just under M) 120-65 (just over S) 190-90 (just under D) |
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Mar 29 2005, 01:16 AM
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#2
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CosaNostra Deliverator Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 346 Joined: 29-January 05 From: Philadelphia, PA Member No.: 7,034 |
I like the idea. I could definitely imagine them implementing a similar system encorporating an increased number of damage levels.
For example: Condition Monitor = 20 boxes Trivial Damage = 1 box Light Damage = 2 boxes Moderate Damage = 6 boxes Serious Damage = 12 boxes Crippling Damage = 15 boxes Deadly Damage = 20 boxes What I would personally like to see is a system where you could be shot, soak all the physical damage but still get knocked off your feet and take stun damage from the bruising force of the bullet hitting your armor vest. I'm not sure there would be an easy way to implement this sort of idea however (short of having weapons do both stun and physical damage, which would be rather cumbersome...) |
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Mar 29 2005, 01:21 AM
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#3
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I don't mind the idea of more precision. Precision is, really, something that the current system is all but incapable of. Grafting 100 'hit points' of damage levels onto that system, however, is unnecessarily cumbersome. Especially when you go that far and don't bother addressing far bigger issues, like penetration and resistability being inextricable when, in reality, they're quite often inversely proportional. Three part damage codes before any of this.
Dev question: any chance any of this is being addressed in/considered for SR4? |
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Mar 29 2005, 01:20 AM
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#4
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Target Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 23-January 05 Member No.: 7,009 |
what about a damage location.
1: Head 2: body (torso) 3: Left Arm 4: Right Arm 5: Left Leg 6: Right Leg Or some variation there of. just a thought |
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Mar 29 2005, 03:43 AM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
Careful. Hit location is a much-debated topic and there is a poster or two here that gets their panties in a wad over it.
Our group has no problem with hit location and uses them regularly. It can be a useful houserule and adds more flexibility to combat. |
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Mar 29 2005, 03:55 AM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,144 Joined: 22-September 04 Member No.: 6,690 |
I use hit location in that when an attack causes damage, I roll 2d6, look at my chart, and tell them that's where they took the wound, and then they can role play that out as they see fit. Hit locations are rarely used in SR because as the system stands, it would tend to slow down combat even more, especially one you start figuring in determining armor over various body parts.
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Mar 29 2005, 03:50 AM
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#7
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
If you do hit locations, you need to rework the armor stats ahead of time. That's about as obvious as saying "I should probably work out gun stats before my players start shooting them."
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Mar 29 2005, 05:39 AM
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#8
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
From my personal experience, hit locations add ALOT of complexity, more so that it's worth unless you really like to spend ALOT of time calculating combat. Anyone here ever play Harnmaster? It's definitely combat intensive, time consuming and very reaslistic. Interesting enough in Harn, you don't have Hitpoints either, you just keep taking damage and the damage adds to your Attribute Rolls for things like death, bleeding, falling down, dropping things etc. It definitely adds some degree of realism I've never seen before, but it comes at a price. |
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Mar 29 2005, 05:41 AM
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#9
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
I liked the "factor 10" since it still make the math easy enough to convert back for the Resitance and Dodge rolls. I know the numbers get big, but I think it's a necissary evil to extract the extra detail. |
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Mar 29 2005, 06:14 AM
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#10
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
What's the rationale for multiplying the Power by 10, since it doesn't seem to factor into anything and just ends up being divided again?
Why not just convert the Damage Code to a number and multiply it by 10 as you have done, but leave the Power alone? |
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Mar 29 2005, 09:57 AM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I toyed with this idea, a Damage Level scale from 0-100, for modern (2004-5) Shadowrun. I don't think I liked it, because it's really hard to figure in the same quick progression from "Light" to Deadly with just 6 net successes while yet not allowing a "Serious" to stage far, far into Over-Deadly with the same or making Deadly damages unstagable to nothing -- unless you work in really quite complicated rules.
Still, I do like the basic idea of it, and if someone has better ideas on staging with such a system than just "+X boxes per success", I'm listening. |
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Mar 29 2005, 10:52 AM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
I'd tentatively put my hand up for a return to the variable staging codes. At first I was happy with the flat Staging 2 of SR2 and later, but now I'm not so sure.
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Mar 29 2005, 12:14 PM
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#13
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
I don't mind if they kept the flat 2 for staging up but had a variable for staging back down.
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Mar 29 2005, 02:05 PM
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#14
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I'm going to be really surprised if staging still exists in the new mechanic. At least in the same way we're currently familiar with it. I know it'd have been one of the first things I would have looked at in the name of streamlining.
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Mar 29 2005, 05:20 PM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
That's in essence what my idea would allow. Although I really like the idea behind L, M, S and D, I think that doing "X" boxes of damage instead of one of the 4 pre-designated levels would allow for some variety. I suppose replacing the damage categories with a number would also work without the need to multiply things, but it still leaves less room to toy with the power level. Also, I suppose penetration values could be affixed as a suffix to show how much "additional" armor is pierced with the ammunition type. Damage codes would then resemble old SR1 types "9M1" or "9M3" but instead of staging, it would just be additional reduction of Armor used for determining Damage Resistance. Adding this value into my revised idea, the format would be: (Power Level)-(Damage Level)-(Armor Piercing) You'd have something like: 5L = 5-1-0 9M = 9-3-0 12S = 12-6-0 18D = 18-10-0 Ammo Typing might adjust only the (Armor Piercing) value or perhaps adjust all 3 values per ammo characteristics. 5L = 5-2-1 (hollow point perhaps) 9M = 10-4-3 (FMJ) etc. |
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Mar 29 2005, 05:44 PM
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#16
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
How would staging work with your suggestion? I don't need to see actual numbers, but I would like to see the function in detail. Because I really don't like the idea of just adding or reducing the damage dealt by # boxes per net success.
As for armor piercing, you'll want to have a lot of variance, starting with attacks which actually increase any armor present, such as shotguns firing shot, through HPs (which might add a bit to armor), FMJs (which may add or reduce, based on the weapon in question), and different AP bullet designs (which may reduce armor by a bit or by a lot), as well as a number of other common and special munitions in the mix. If even pistol JHP attacks have a positive Armor Piercing value (ie. they reduce armor by X), then you'll end up with insanely high Armor ratings to maintain balance. |
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Mar 29 2005, 05:59 PM
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#17
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
I can see it working either as it currently does (2-successes re-apply the Damage Level "X" again), or that each success add to the Damage Level, so 5-1-0 with 5 successes would do 6 boxes damage. The shortfall of the second method is how hard it wuld be to kill someone with a Light Pistol and less than 9 successes, although someone with the sole intent of killing you might use all their Combat Pool. You could take this a step further and allow for Damage Level "bonuses" for conditions like "Point Blank", "Prone", "Called Shot" or "Aiming", but that might just slow-down things.
The fact is Armor Piercing is not an easy thing to simulate in a game system, espcially in the name of "streamlining". My proposition was simply a stab at adding some detail for Armor Piercing where none exists. I've only defined 3 elements to attempt and define this (Power Level, Damage Level and Armor Piercing) but I suppose you might need more dimensions to make a more realistic representation. |
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Mar 29 2005, 05:52 PM
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#18
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Target Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 18-March 05 Member No.: 7,189 |
Iīd love a revised combat/damage system in SR4.
The old SR damage system sucks imho, since itīs possible to reduce damage to nothing by rolling Body. Thatīs something i never understood. You were hit by bullets and were able to take no damage. Crazy stuff... I love condition systems, like in SR or Cyberpunk or old World of Darkness. Thatīs something they should keep. Oh, and hit location would be cool, too. You know what? Just take the CP 2020 damage system, itīs not perfect but itīs deadly enough for a game like SR and is very easy and fast to handle. |
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Mar 29 2005, 06:04 PM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Although off-topic for the point of my thread a few comments: I think you've missed the whole concept that SR gives you what few other games do: A chance to do something about taking damage. SR is abstract enough that you can say your body armor absorbed the damage (your case and point) or that the bullets are now lodged in the butt-end of your rifle. The point is, YOU got to do something other than stand there and suck-up a +5 Vorpal Battle-Axe. |
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Mar 29 2005, 06:15 PM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Bad idea. Light attacks would then require almost twice as many net successes to stage up to Deadly/10 boxes (10 vs 6), and Deadly attacks would be just awful with 2 successes just about guaranteeing an insta-kill, don't pass Unconscious & Bleeding. And staging down would then have to work with a completely different principle, since you obviously don't want all attacks to be staged down to nothing with just 1 net success after Damage Resistance.
This makes staging up damage a lot more difficult, and staging down much easier at low DLs and harder at high DLs. Both mechanisms would also tend to make the Damage Code of the weapon much more important compared to the amount of dice rolled than in canon SR3, which is not a preferred consequence, at least for me.
Assuming no hit locations, I'm dead against anything other than an abstract type of Called Shot, such as exists in SR3 (the book). Point blank range, being prone, or taking aim all make hitting easier, which is what should be modeled into the rules, and those then make doing more damage easier.
Not really. It's just a good idea to have more variance in the AP rating (I call it the Penetration rating in my rules), with both positive (adds # to any Ballistic armor present) and negative (subtracts # from any Ballistic armor present, to a minimum of 0). For example, a shotgun firing shot might be a "+6" (add 6 to armor), while a HMG or heavy sniper rifle firing APDS might be -15 (remove 15 from armor). |
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Mar 29 2005, 06:17 PM
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#21
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
As I've said elsewhere on the forums, crazy stuff happens all the time. People get shot and still keep functioning. |
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Mar 29 2005, 06:27 PM
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#22
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Perhaps ammo type would be used for the staging, since after all, the bullet is doing the damage? Maybe the stage-per-success would be affixed to the bullet type? "+X boxes" per succcess for the type of round fired?
So if the bullet-type from the Light Pistol added +2 Damage Level per success, then that would indeed allow 5 succcesses to push the Damage Level to 11 counting successes. I would assume +2 DL would be common "heavier" round type. |
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Mar 29 2005, 06:48 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,144 Joined: 22-September 04 Member No.: 6,690 |
It's an abstract system. Mechanically, you reduced the damge. In game, you were hit by the bullet, but you're just so tough, or turned just the right way, that really it was just a flesh wound that barely slowed you down. Or you're simply so tough that a gut shot doesn't even slow you down (thus counts as only a light wound). Or there's the classic 'hero takes the shot in the shoulder.' |
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Mar 29 2005, 06:51 PM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
If a shot to the abdomen doesn't even slow you down, that could just as well count as no wound at all. The Light/Medium/Serious/Deadly-progression really doesn't do justice to the kinds of traumas you might suffer from as after-effects of a wound, so I tend to consider it simply an abstraction of the immediate effects -- thus even if a gut shot might require medical attention afterwards, if it doesn't cause an immediate drop in performance (enough even to turn "average" tasks "challenging", sr3.92) I wouldn't consider it even a Light wound. This does have some problems, such as Deadly then necessarily describing a wound capable of killing the average human in a matter of seconds, ie. extensive damage to the heart, the major arteries between the heart and the brain, or the CNS itself. Good thing medical technology has vastly advanced in the 21st century. |
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Mar 29 2005, 07:14 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 468 Joined: 17-March 05 Member No.: 7,185 |
Also you need to definitely have some comparitive mechanic to overdamage to represent the really nasty wounds that come about via high end weaponry. However I think people need to be wary of having something akin to regular vs naval damage as tbh it kinda smells like some palladium sdc/mdc mechanic.
However there does need to be some improvement concerning how small arms effect vehicles and how heavy weapons effect people as the current system does leave a bit to be desired. Of course this starts getting into icky issues like critter hardened armor etc which will quickly make a alt system really hard to hash out. All that being said be very wary of critical hit charts etc as they quickly become unmanageable (think rolemaster) without adding much to gameplay. Further body location charts tend to discourage stylistic roleplaying as suddenly to survive a mission you need to wear a helmet which is sooo not cyberpunk ;) |
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