 Hemetics cost to much |
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 Apr 4 2005, 07:29 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543  |
Okay, I am not saying that hermetics suck or anything but come on.
Shamans have to buy a single mojo place, that costs rating times rating times 100 Nuyen. Hermetics have to buy two places that both cost ten times as much. Shaman can go out and summon a spirit on the fly, and it doesn't cost him a thing. Hermetics have to pay thousands of nuyen to get an elemental. So, really why do hermetics have to pay so much? I mean I can see hermetics having to pay to get items to summon elementals,and I can see two libieries... But I think they should at worst cost a tenth of what they do now. |
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Apr 4 2005, 07:40 PM
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#2
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
And they only can have it until the next sun-up/sundown. Not to mention the problems with domain boundaries. This one balances out, I'd say. The others you may have a point about. |
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Apr 4 2005, 08:01 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
So, a bit drain and waiting aorund equals thoundans of dollars and hours of planing?
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Apr 4 2005, 11:07 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 407 Joined: 22-March 04 Member No.: 6,183 |
Three, if they want to do any enchanting. That requires a library, too. There's positives and negatives on both sides, and they usually balance out pretty well, IMO. |
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Apr 4 2005, 11:50 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 26-March 05 Member No.: 7,236 |
Hermetics can summon up a harem of 6-8 elementals, and then call them up and go astral.
Astral hermetics with six elementals on a leash, maybe followed by 6 watchers for the extra 'friend in the melee' modifiers are able to take out entire shadowrunner teams on their own. I think that's worth something. As to the shaman's ability to summon a spirit anywhere... consider the fact that he usually has to do it smack in the middle of combat, or right before it, so he might feel drained through the most important part of the run. So, the shaman is either limited to one smaller spirit, or one large spirit and a headache in the middle of battle. The shaman doesn't get half a dozen of them. So I guess, hermetics have the power of science, along with its drawbacks (money!) |
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Apr 4 2005, 11:00 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Shamanic conjuring has some pretty hefty drawbacks -- any game that's relatively split between money and karma, the advantages go to mage over shaman for conjuring. It's only when money is an incredible issue that shamanic conjuring is "better" than mage, and even then, it's pretty bad, considering the target numbers on the conjuring and drain resistance.
Sure, a starting shaman can conjure a force 6 spirit on the fly... but then he has to soak minimum of 6M stun on charisma. If he doesn't have charisma 6, it's 6S Physical -- and that's if he has charisma 4-5. Realistically, a shaman can conjure 2-3 force 3-4 spirits, assuming the domains all line up, and even then, they lose a lot of services to conjure the next -- any time you switch domains, you lose all additional services on the spirit you conjured. The cost of libraries? You may be onto something there. But the conjuring? Not really. |
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Apr 5 2005, 01:02 AM
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#7
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Who makes a shaman with less than 4 charisma? For that matter, why make a shaman with less than 5 or 6? Unless its a troll or something, I guess, but even then there are Edges. Its like making a Body 3 Sam...Career Suicide, if you ask me. I with everyone else about the Libraries. :) About the Libraries, can you do the "Survival Knife/Trauma Patch Manuver" with Libraries? As in, get yourself a good one at char gen and sell copies of it, or what? |
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Apr 5 2005, 01:15 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 1-September 02 From: France Member No.: 3,208 |
Because the GM doesn't allow any shamans, or magic people for that matter, to have all great magnetic personnalities that are the sign of great and rare leaders ? It's exactly like having each and every decker-rigger-samurai starting with 1M¥. It's up to the GM to enforce his vision of his world. |
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Apr 5 2005, 01:39 AM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
A GM telling me I can't have a 6 in Charisma b/c I'm playing an Awakened?
Fuck. That. |
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Apr 5 2005, 12:52 AM
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#10
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
*raises hand* Umm, me? Lots of folks like to build their attributes around their character rather than what works best for the archetype. Of course, there is major overlap between the "best fit" style of play and the "best fit" mechanics, but I don't think it's career suicide to make a Shaman who just isn't all that interested in being a killer summoner as well. |
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Apr 5 2005, 02:25 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
Plus, the advantage of a hermetic library is that your 'place' isn't limited by your totem, and it's portable (if on electronic media), and doesn't require time to attune to you, and you can use anybody else's library if you don't have your own.
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Apr 5 2005, 01:28 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Started with Charisma 3 on a shaman.. up to 5 now.. Wasn't suicide then, didn't do a lot of conjuring. Isn't suicide now.. but still harsh to deal with, and not great for drain -- sorcery and willpower are both higher than conjuring and charisma.. and more useful besides, since it's force/2 as the base drain power, which is the thing that bugs me most about shaman conjuring. And even at 6 charisma, conjuring a force 6 spirit is exactly like a force 12 Moderate manabolt... 6M stun. Not particularly easy to soak.
And as for GM's not allowing some stats.. it wasn't the GM, it was me assigning how many points into what attributes on the priority system. What the GM doesn't allow is all stats above the racial modified limit.. for good reason. Hmm.. I've never built a character with 1M nuyen either.. not even the Sam, he was done with 400k.. |
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Apr 5 2005, 01:46 AM
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#13
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Are you actually telling me that you regularly make shamans with a charisma of 3? Would you also make a mage with a willpower of 3? A sam with a body of 3? Hell, I don't like to make sams with a charisma of 3 or mages with a body of 3. Unless we're talking a Street Level game here, there's no need to sacrifice power for role-play potential. You can do it for RP hooks and that's all well and good but I'd hazard a guess that its more the exception rather than the rule.
And...? I didn't see Jeremie say anything about stats above the RML.
Me niether. I always thought that was for deckers and riggers but I know others have made fun sam-ish characters with a mil :nuyen:. :) |
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Apr 5 2005, 04:39 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Starting Shaman-Adept had Cha 3, Str 4, Bod 4 (Qui 9, Int 6, Will 6 though)
Starting Sam had Cha 2, Str 4 (Qui 6, Int 6, Will 6, Bod 6) That's actually all of the shamans and Sam's I've made.. can't remember what the two pure adepts had, although one had Qui 9, and the other hand Qui 6. Stats above the RML are about the only way shamanic summoning is feasible at relatively high force, IMO.. which is why I mentioned it. And actually, sacrificing power is very common when using the priority system, which is what all my characters have been built on. Makes you choose how to divide things up a little more. |
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Apr 5 2005, 03:45 AM
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#15
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
You are pushing the point to make it seem ridiculous, without really reading what I'm saying. The choice of attributes, for me, are wholly influenced by the kind of character being created, rather than the archetype pursued. I will make a Shaman with a low Charisma if I think he came from a battered home and a socially-isolated background. He might have a Conjuring skill of 3 or 4, because he's only comfortable with summoning watchers. I can also make a Samurai with "only" a body of 3, someone who prides himself on his reflexes and lithe body, quickness over bulk. If I want to create a Troll Decker (even though everything in the rules of the game is against Trolls becoming effective deckers), then I will do so, because that's the kind of character I want to create. I recognize the value of archetypes and the myriad ways that one can min-max their characters for "best" effect. Most of my characters tend to be a bit twinkish, I'll also admit, and I regularly make characters with 6's in their primary skills. But the "best" effect in mechanics sometimes clash with the "best fit" for character concept or design. |
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Apr 6 2005, 08:35 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
I do not mean to be rude or anything but the fact is, because you make character that are not the best of the best, means that you are making character that will suffer. If you make characters for style over substance then you will find them to be lacking in the area of power. So you do not min max, that's cool. I don't care. I don't care if you want to play a street sam with no legs.If that is your character, then that is it. But don't give me bullshit about legs are ungamebalancing because they let you move. My main point is that, hermetics get the shaft when it comes to how much their gear costs. Hermetic mages have to spend 30 times as much money as shaman, before they get the toys to summon elementals. So even if elementals were hands down better the spirits, witch they aren't, the hermetic is spending so much more on magical gear that the shaman just is better starting out. I mean, I have looked at both,and I can't really think of a reason not to start off with at least 90K for hermetic. Hell it is hard to think of a reason not to start with 200K. Shamen, I can easily see going for 500 or 5k.That is a lot of points for the hermetic that aren't going into skills. |
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Apr 7 2005, 04:15 PM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 7-April 05 Member No.: 7,302 |
I agree to Cynic that libraries should get cheaper.
Maybe it would also make sense to delete all that specialized libraries and replace them with a general library, just like the Shamans hut. Elementals are just fine. With Enchanting you can get your ritual material much cheaper, and if you really play street level you can still steal Elementals from other summoners. |
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Apr 7 2005, 03:21 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 468 Joined: 17-March 05 Member No.: 7,185 |
Maybe in order to distinguish the shamanic and hermetic traditions more in the next edition Shamans should be more focused on conjuring abilities whereas hermetic will be more focused on sorcery. Considering that the shamanic tradition seems more focused on the spirit world rather than having direct tangible effects on reality in contrast with the hermetic idea of mages altering reality through will and ritual.
Yes it would be a big conceptual change to the game but it might allow there to be more unique traits to each tradition. |
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Apr 7 2005, 03:26 PM
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#19
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 7-April 05 Member No.: 7,302 |
And what with the other traditions like Psionic?
I'm just fine with the actual solution - Sorcery as the same for everyone, Summoning as something different depending on tradition. |
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Apr 7 2005, 04:45 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 468 Joined: 17-March 05 Member No.: 7,185 |
Psionics should be dropped period and I've never been that fond of the other traditions as they often appear to be caricatures of the actual tradition. Granted even the shamanic tradition would be considered a disservice to the actual tradition of those groups but unless you are willing to really revise the system you pretty much need to keep them. What I'm saying though is that you can make the traditions more unique by having thier unique traits be manifested not just through conjuring but through sorcery and enchanting as well. Maybe have hermetics focus more on flashy whizbang effects to the detriment of thier ability to heal etc. Make it where hermetics are good at enchanting certain type of foci while shamans rock at other things. I'm not saying that this is the only way to go or even likely but it would make the choice of shaman vs hermetic more meaningful |
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Apr 7 2005, 04:19 PM
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#21
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 7-April 05 Member No.: 7,302 |
I think it's even very unlikely it will happen that way since one of the big goals of SR4 is streamlining.
I agree with you it would have more flair - but I prefer a simple and consistent system over a baroque and colorful one. |
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Apr 7 2005, 04:53 PM
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#22
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 22-March 05 From: Milwaukee Member No.: 7,210 |
Okay... so back to the original point about why Elemental Spirits and Hermatic magic costs so much more then Shamonic Magic. There are two reasons in my mind, one is game balance and the other is FASA's vision of the Shadowrun world. (Prices where high under FASA's reign not FanPro's, they have just continued the status quo)
#1) Game Balance Elemental Spirits have a few key advantages over Nature Spirits. First, flexablity. Nature Spirits can only use powers or attack as directed by the shamon. Elemental spirits can do so much more. They can aid sorcery or help you learn powerful spells. They can be bound to protect areas. They can be put on standby in the metaplanes indefinatly! (Each 24 hours they use a service if they are with the magician in astral space, not the metaplanes.) Elementals can execute physical services as well, other then attacking. For these reasons, elementals are more powerful spirits then nature spirits and hence should cost more. #2) Vision Hermatic magicians wield magic by using complex formula including arcane mathmatics, physics, and a dash of huh! This generally requires a formal education and is why corporations have set up departments to find magically active children so they can begin training as soon as possible. In the real world, advanced education costs money and that investment creates valuable people. Hermatic magicians can demand higher pay from corporations. Hermatic magicians can also adapt to corporate life while shamons follow a totem (not always in the interest of a corporation.) Since corporations tend to support Hermatic magicians, there is a higher demand and deeper pockets for magical gear for hermatic magicians. Since it doesn't matter to the corporation with billions of :nuyen: if they spend a few extra thousand dollars to get an employee, they will hire the guy who is more flexable and prepared for problems. A good place to look for differences between a Hermatic mage and a Shamon is the old Grimore. The first chapter went into the differences in the average life of a Hermatic and Shamon. |
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Apr 8 2005, 08:57 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Psionic should be treated like shamen. Pure and simple. |
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Apr 8 2005, 08:59 PM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
So, Fluff justfies hermetics paying more? Um, and the fluff would have it that gangers can get cyberware, until you look at the costs of most cyberware they should "have".... |
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Apr 8 2005, 08:59 PM
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#25
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
In my opinion, Psionics should be done away with. But that's just me!
As for gangers with cyberware, they could acquire it used, or rip it from a freshly killed body (or have their friendly Street Doc do it). I have no problem with some gangers having access to cyber. |
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