Okay, I am not saying that hermetics suck or anything but come on.

Shamans have to buy a single mojo place, that costs rating times rating times 100 Nuyen.

Hermetics have to buy two places that both cost ten times as much.

Shaman can go out and summon a spirit on the fly, and it doesn't cost him a thing.

Hermetics have to pay thousands of nuyen to get an elemental.

So, really why do hermetics have to pay so much? I mean I can see hermetics having to pay to get items to summon elementals,and I can see two libieries... But I think they should at worst cost a tenth of what they do now.

So, a bit drain and waiting aorund equals thoundans of dollars and hours of planing?

Hermetics can summon up a harem of 6-8 elementals, and then call them up and go astral.

Astral hermetics with six elementals on a leash, maybe followed by 6 watchers for the extra 'friend in the melee' modifiers are able to take out entire shadowrunner teams on their own.

I think that's worth something.

As to the shaman's ability to summon a spirit anywhere... consider the fact that he usually has to do it smack in the middle of combat, or right before it, so he might feel drained through the most important part of the run. So, the shaman is either limited to one smaller spirit, or one large spirit and a headache in the middle of battle. The shaman doesn't get half a dozen of them.

So I guess, hermetics have the power of science, along with its drawbacks (money!)

Shamanic conjuring has some pretty hefty drawbacks -- any game that's relatively split between money and karma, the advantages go to mage over shaman for conjuring. It's only when money is an incredible issue that shamanic conjuring is "better" than mage, and even then, it's pretty bad, considering the target numbers on the conjuring and drain resistance.

Sure, a starting shaman can conjure a force 6 spirit on the fly... but then he has to soak minimum of 6M stun on charisma. If he doesn't have charisma 6, it's 6S Physical -- and that's if he has charisma 4-5.

Realistically, a shaman can conjure 2-3 force 3-4 spirits, assuming the domains all line up, and even then, they lose a lot of services to conjure the next -- any time you switch domains, you lose all additional services on the spirit you conjured.

The cost of libraries? You may be onto something there. But the conjuring? Not really.

A GM telling me I can't have a 6 in Charisma b/c I'm playing an Awakened?

Fuck. That.

Plus, the advantage of a hermetic library is that your 'place' isn't limited by your totem, and it's portable (if on electronic media), and doesn't require time to attune to you, and you can use anybody else's library if you don't have your own.

Started with Charisma 3 on a shaman.. up to 5 now.. Wasn't suicide then, didn't do a lot of conjuring. Isn't suicide now.. but still harsh to deal with, and not great for drain -- sorcery and willpower are both higher than conjuring and charisma.. and more useful besides, since it's force/2 as the base drain power, which is the thing that bugs me most about shaman conjuring. And even at 6 charisma, conjuring a force 6 spirit is exactly like a force 12 Moderate manabolt... 6M stun. Not particularly easy to soak.

And as for GM's not allowing some stats.. it wasn't the GM, it was me assigning how many points into what attributes on the priority system. What the GM doesn't allow is all stats above the racial modified limit.. for good reason.

Hmm.. I've never built a character with 1M nuyen either.. not even the Sam, he was done with 400k..

Starting Shaman-Adept had Cha 3, Str 4, Bod 4 (Qui 9, Int 6, Will 6 though)
Starting Sam had Cha 2, Str 4 (Qui 6, Int 6, Will 6, Bod 6)

That's actually all of the shamans and Sam's I've made.. can't remember what the two pure adepts had, although one had Qui 9, and the other hand Qui 6.

Stats above the RML are about the only way shamanic summoning is feasible at relatively high force, IMO.. which is why I mentioned it.

And actually, sacrificing power is very common when using the priority system, which is what all my characters have been built on. Makes you choose how to divide things up a little more.

I agree to Cynic that libraries should get cheaper.
Maybe it would also make sense to delete all that specialized libraries and replace them with a general library, just like the Shamans hut.

Elementals are just fine. With Enchanting you can get your ritual material much cheaper, and if you really play street level you can still steal Elementals from other summoners.

Maybe in order to distinguish the shamanic and hermetic traditions more in the next edition Shamans should be more focused on conjuring abilities whereas hermetic will be more focused on sorcery. Considering that the shamanic tradition seems more focused on the spirit world rather than having direct tangible effects on reality in contrast with the hermetic idea of mages altering reality through will and ritual.

Yes it would be a big conceptual change to the game but it might allow there to be more unique traits to each tradition.

And what with the other traditions like Psionic?
I'm just fine with the actual solution - Sorcery as the same for everyone, Summoning as something different depending on tradition.

I think it's even very unlikely it will happen that way since one of the big goals of SR4 is streamlining.

I agree with you it would have more flair - but I prefer a simple and consistent system over a baroque and colorful one.

Okay... so back to the original point about why Elemental Spirits and Hermatic magic costs so much more then Shamonic Magic. There are two reasons in my mind, one is game balance and the other is FASA's vision of the Shadowrun world. (Prices where high under FASA's reign not FanPro's, they have just continued the status quo)

#1) Game Balance

Elemental Spirits have a few key advantages over Nature Spirits. First, flexablity. Nature Spirits can only use powers or attack as directed by the shamon. Elemental spirits can do so much more. They can aid sorcery or help you learn powerful spells. They can be bound to protect areas. They can be put on standby in the metaplanes indefinatly! (Each 24 hours they use a service if they are with the magician in astral space, not the metaplanes.) Elementals can execute physical services as well, other then attacking.

For these reasons, elementals are more powerful spirits then nature spirits and hence should cost more.

#2) Vision

Hermatic magicians wield magic by using complex formula including arcane mathmatics, physics, and a dash of huh! This generally requires a formal education and is why corporations have set up departments to find magically active children so they can begin training as soon as possible. In the real world, advanced education costs money and that investment creates valuable people. Hermatic magicians can demand higher pay from corporations. Hermatic magicians can also adapt to corporate life while shamons follow a totem (not always in the interest of a corporation.) Since corporations tend to support Hermatic magicians, there is a higher demand and deeper pockets for magical gear for hermatic magicians. Since it doesn't matter to the corporation with billions of if they spend a few extra thousand dollars to get an employee, they will hire the guy who is more flexable and prepared for problems.

A good place to look for differences between a Hermatic mage and a Shamon is the old Grimore. The first chapter went into the differences in the average life of a Hermatic and Shamon.

In my opinion, Psionics should be done away with. But that's just me!

As for gangers with cyberware, they could acquire it used, or rip it from a freshly killed body (or have their friendly Street Doc do it). I have no problem with some gangers having access to cyber.

yeah. i agree with that.

same here. i've been pondering a concept for a psionic character for a while, now, but every time i sit down and try to roll him up, i realize that--oh yeah!--psionics suck. crappy abilities should never be a barrier to cool characters; psionics need to be burned and rewritten.

edit: erk. amendment: crappy abilities should never rarely be a barrier to cool characters; psionics need to be burned and rewritten.

the reason psionics in SR sucks is because your better off playing a mage with spells that cover those abilities, i mean come on this is SR not X-Men

that's a piss-poor reason, allanon. for one, the x-men hardly have a monopoly on psionics. for two, the entire point of including something in a game is to make it playable; whether you agree with the inclusion or not, if it's going to be in there, it should be playable.

and it is, its all a matter of how you play the mage, look at MitS on page 26/27, it discusses psionics there, and the way i read it its playable but its just a tweak on playing a mage, like me with my physical adepts, they follow the wolf totem, therefore they take the combat monster flaw, but do they get any bonuses, no, its a player tweak and its all in the way you handle it

try actually playing one, man. they suck, compared to normal mages. they can only group with others of their very rare kind; they get a spell selection that's comparable to a priority-B magician; they get to summon a single spirit type, and it takes forever to summon them. psionicists have a buttload of disadvantages, and no advantages at all.

kinda similar to a shaman if you ask me........

Don't forget they can't use foci, can't use geasea that are "mystical" in nature (this one doesn't make any sense at *all*; how many new-age psionic weirdos are out there now praying to crystals?) can't banish or control any type of spirit other than their thought forms, along with the host of disadvantages that mfb mentioned. They are not at all like shamans, who can do everything mentioned above plus get totem advantages (where psions only get "totem" disadvantages.)

The "advantage" of being able to summon thought forms, who do have the advantage of being domainless and have the Psychokinesis power but basically nothing else do not in any way make up for being as gimped as they are. Psions are just not playable; you're far better off making a hermatic and just *calling* him a Psion than you are at using the Psion rules, and IMO that's just a stupid way to do them. If you can play a character concept better by ignoring the specific rules for that concept and using other rules and just changing a few names, it means there's probably a problem with the specific rules.

yes, if by "similar" you mean "wholly different". shaman have access to all spells and all nature spirits. psionicists do not have access at all to most spells, and have access to a single spirit type.

The biggie, though, is the "can't use foci" rule. With that one rule you've taken away 50% of the psion's advancement potential, and basically taken away a magic-type's only real use for large amounts of cash.

Not to mention you've lost all the flexability of sustaining foci, which just about any self-respecting mage as a few of.

true.

Actually, if I recall correctly, the spell list for psionics is.. um.. wrong?

Going from memory:
It says outright no elemental manipulations -- but, pyrokinesis. Create and manipulate fire. There's my flamethrower and fireball spell.

Mana/stun bolt/ball: Mental attack to overwhelm the mind. Telepathic attack, empathic attack, both combined?

If I had to redesign Psionics I would make them sorcerers with the ability to astral projection.
Summoning IMHO doesn't fit into the classic image of Psionics.

well, it came out all wrong, then.

Maybe his name was supposed to be a giveaway.

I'm in agreement with Kesh. I had a loooong argument with a player/gm (we switched off every now and then) about the viability of a Psionic character, and why they should not have been treated the way they were. His argument ran along the lines in the book of "They don't think it's magic, so it's not working right for them", my counterargument was "Hermetics don't think their magic comes from totems, why does it work right for them?".

I, too would treat them as Shamans, with bonus dice or negative dice for specific types of spells. I Think i'd handle thought forms more like Elementals, though, retain the time costs, but nix the materials costs and the hermetic circle, use the Psionic's 'meditation center' instead, and allow for some on-summoning additions to the summoned thought form based on successes not used for services. (adding powers and such). But, hey, I doubt I'll ever have to bring such rules into affect, so I don't worry about them.

I think the rules suggest that looking at magic as psionics is not just another different way, it's a different and wrong way. Otherwise you'd think they'd be less bad at it.

Well obviously, yes, but when you come to nail down *exactly* why, you start running into problems. I mean, how are psions, who use the power of their mind to manipulate the world around them, different from hermatics and shamans, who... use the power of their mind to manipulate the mana around them? Is it just the word mana that mysteriously gives hermatics and shamans more power than psions?

I think the common ground is that a Magical tradition also includes the philosophical mental barriers that prevent the most efficient/effective method of casting magic. All traditions have a disadvantage, and in most cases, that disadvantage is self-imposed, at least subconciously.

In the case of psionics, the mental barriers are perceived as going "too far" to justify becoming a psion. I think this design decision was deliberate, simply to divorce Shadowrun from futuristic games which substitute psionics for magic (I happen to think it is justified as well, but then, I've always been wary of psionics systems in all games). Unlike, say, the totemic restrictions of a shaman, psions are given the shaft because they aren't directly compensated for their loss. If GMs were to compensate for this in any particular game, then it wouldn't be so bad. I know that's the equivalent of saying "Just house rule it", but that's the best solution I see in this case. Psions are meant to be extraordinarily rare, and conceptually, psions are seen as divergent from the game world.