 Hemetics cost to much |
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 Apr 8 2005, 09:09 PM
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#26
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Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
heh. i like this. |
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Apr 8 2005, 09:28 PM
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#27
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
For the record, I do, too, although it could be stated in a more witty or eloquent way. Ungamebalancing just doesn't roll off the tongue... I wasn't responding to the post, I was challenging kevyn's assertation that "no one" makes a shaman character with a low Charisma by stating that there are different goals when it comes to character design in a roleplaying game. Some people, of course, interpret this to mean that I play one-legged adepts who have +3 dice in Athletics and +5 dice in Culinary Performance. That's taking the point to a ridiculous extreme, and is certainly not what I'm saying. And I do min-max sometimes when I make my characters; it's just that sometimes, I have a character concept in mind that clashes with my min-max instincts. An example of this is listed in the BeCKS PDF, about the difference between getting a Car skill or maxing out a combat skill (another reason why BeCKS is great). |
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Apr 8 2005, 09:31 PM
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#28
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yeah. i agree with that.
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Apr 8 2005, 09:32 PM
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#29
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
I like the idea of Psionics, but I don't think it's particularly fair to arbitrarily gimp them. I mean, how the heck is thinking your powers come from having a powerful brain and access to your superconscious any more "wrong" than thinking your power comes from the personal intervention of a powerful independent spirit that you call a totem, or that your power comes from... well what *does* a hermatic's power come from that differs in any important way from the Psion's view? |
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Apr 8 2005, 09:34 PM
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#30
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
same here. i've been pondering a concept for a psionic character for a while, now, but every time i sit down and try to roll him up, i realize that--oh yeah!--psionics suck. crappy abilities should never be a barrier to cool characters; psionics need to be burned and rewritten.
edit: erk. amendment: crappy abilities should |
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Apr 8 2005, 11:23 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 775 Joined: 31-March 05 From: florida Member No.: 7,273 |
the reason psionics in SR sucks is because your better off playing a mage with spells that cover those abilities, i mean come on this is SR not X-Men
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Apr 9 2005, 01:04 AM
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#32
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's a piss-poor reason, allanon. for one, the x-men hardly have a monopoly on psionics. for two, the entire point of including something in a game is to make it playable; whether you agree with the inclusion or not, if it's going to be in there, it should be playable.
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Apr 9 2005, 01:12 AM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 775 Joined: 31-March 05 From: florida Member No.: 7,273 |
and it is, its all a matter of how you play the mage, look at MitS on page 26/27, it discusses psionics there, and the way i read it its playable but its just a tweak on playing a mage, like me with my physical adepts, they follow the wolf totem, therefore they take the combat monster flaw, but do they get any bonuses, no, its a player tweak and its all in the way you handle it
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Apr 9 2005, 01:21 AM
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#34
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
try actually playing one, man. they suck, compared to normal mages. they can only group with others of their very rare kind; they get a spell selection that's comparable to a priority-B magician; they get to summon a single spirit type, and it takes forever to summon them. psionicists have a buttload of disadvantages, and no advantages at all.
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Apr 9 2005, 01:24 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 775 Joined: 31-March 05 From: florida Member No.: 7,273 |
kinda similar to a shaman if you ask me........
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Apr 9 2005, 01:41 AM
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#36
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Don't forget they can't use foci, can't use geasea that are "mystical" in nature (this one doesn't make any sense at *all*; how many new-age psionic weirdos are out there now praying to crystals?) can't banish or control any type of spirit other than their thought forms, along with the host of disadvantages that mfb mentioned. They are not at all like shamans, who can do everything mentioned above plus get totem advantages (where psions only get "totem" disadvantages.)
The "advantage" of being able to summon thought forms, who do have the advantage of being domainless and have the Psychokinesis power but basically nothing else do not in any way make up for being as gimped as they are. Psions are just not playable; you're far better off making a hermatic and just *calling* him a Psion than you are at using the Psion rules, and IMO that's just a stupid way to do them. If you can play a character concept better by ignoring the specific rules for that concept and using other rules and just changing a few names, it means there's probably a problem with the specific rules. |
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Apr 9 2005, 01:56 AM
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#37
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yes, if by "similar" you mean "wholly different". shaman have access to all spells and all nature spirits. psionicists do not have access at all to most spells, and have access to a single spirit type.
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Apr 9 2005, 02:44 AM
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#38
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
The biggie, though, is the "can't use foci" rule. With that one rule you've taken away 50% of the psion's advancement potential, and basically taken away a magic-type's only real use for large amounts of cash.
Not to mention you've lost all the flexability of sustaining foci, which just about any self-respecting mage as a few of. |
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Apr 9 2005, 02:48 AM
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#39
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
true.
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Apr 9 2005, 12:05 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
Well, letīs be honest: they are crippling their own magic with their own reduction of their magic to psionics. ;-) SYL |
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Apr 9 2005, 01:32 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Actually, if I recall correctly, the spell list for psionics is.. um.. wrong?
Going from memory: It says outright no elemental manipulations -- but, pyrokinesis. Create and manipulate fire. There's my flamethrower and fireball spell. Mana/stun bolt/ball: Mental attack to overwhelm the mind. Telepathic attack, empathic attack, both combined? |
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Apr 9 2005, 03:06 PM
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#42
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 7-April 05 Member No.: 7,302 |
If I had to redesign Psionics I would make them sorcerers with the ability to astral projection.
Summoning IMHO doesn't fit into the classic image of Psionics. |
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Apr 9 2005, 08:53 PM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
But my point was this, when arguing about rules, one must assume that the the players will make the best characters they can make. After all, some rules are just fine if you set limits on who can use them. Case and point, some people could play great vampires,a dn those character would be well worth playing with, but other wouldn't . And seeing how most would fall into the power playing point of view , it is highly likely that vampires would be broken. And I wasn't really trying to be witty, so much as cynical. |
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Apr 10 2005, 11:29 AM
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#44
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, it came out all wrong, then.
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Apr 10 2005, 11:50 AM
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#45
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Maybe his name was supposed to be a giveaway.
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Apr 11 2005, 02:28 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 293 Joined: 27-January 03 From: Kentucky, USA Member No.: 3,958 |
Except that they shouldn't be. Just as hermetics see magic as thaumaturgical science, and shamans see it as calling upon spiritual forces, psions should see it as direct manipulation of the mind and body through will. It's just a different way of looking at magic. I'd personally treat them as similar to a shaman, without totems. Spirits aren't a big deal (psychic ghost hunters are a staple), though I might disallow summoning anything except watchers and allies, while giving bonuses to banishing. As an alternative, perhaps something similar to loa... actually, that's better, now that I think of it. The psion reaches out with his mind and channels a spirit into his body for knowledge and/or power. That's another staple for psychics. The shamanic lodge becomes a meditation center, so the only weird thing becomes the spell formulae. While some psions might use artwork, similar to shamans, I don't see it fitting all of them. |
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Apr 11 2005, 03:30 AM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093 |
I'm in agreement with Kesh. I had a loooong argument with a player/gm (we switched off every now and then) about the viability of a Psionic character, and why they should not have been treated the way they were. His argument ran along the lines in the book of "They don't think it's magic, so it's not working right for them", my counterargument was "Hermetics don't think their magic comes from totems, why does it work right for them?".
I, too would treat them as Shamans, with bonus dice or negative dice for specific types of spells. I Think i'd handle thought forms more like Elementals, though, retain the time costs, but nix the materials costs and the hermetic circle, use the Psionic's 'meditation center' instead, and allow for some on-summoning additions to the summoned thought form based on successes not used for services. (adding powers and such). But, hey, I doubt I'll ever have to bring such rules into affect, so I don't worry about them. |
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Apr 11 2005, 04:12 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
I think the rules suggest that looking at magic as psionics is not just another different way, it's a different and wrong way. Otherwise you'd think they'd be less bad at it.
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Apr 11 2005, 05:32 AM
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#49
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Well obviously, yes, but when you come to nail down *exactly* why, you start running into problems. I mean, how are psions, who use the power of their mind to manipulate the world around them, different from hermatics and shamans, who... use the power of their mind to manipulate the mana around them? Is it just the word mana that mysteriously gives hermatics and shamans more power than psions?
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Apr 11 2005, 06:02 AM
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#50
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
I think the common ground is that a Magical tradition also includes the philosophical mental barriers that prevent the most efficient/effective method of casting magic. All traditions have a disadvantage, and in most cases, that disadvantage is self-imposed, at least subconciously.
In the case of psionics, the mental barriers are perceived as going "too far" to justify becoming a psion. I think this design decision was deliberate, simply to divorce Shadowrun from futuristic games which substitute psionics for magic (I happen to think it is justified as well, but then, I've always been wary of psionics systems in all games). Unlike, say, the totemic restrictions of a shaman, psions are given the shaft because they aren't directly compensated for their loss. If GMs were to compensate for this in any particular game, then it wouldn't be so bad. I know that's the equivalent of saying "Just house rule it", but that's the best solution I see in this case. Psions are meant to be extraordinarily rare, and conceptually, psions are seen as divergent from the game world. |
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