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> Attributes are-a-changing, SR FAQ Part Four
Grinder
post Apr 12 2005, 10:04 AM
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QUOTE

Q. Are any of the attributes changing?
A. Yes. Specifically, we have expanded them:
— Intelligence has been split into Intuition and Logic
— Quickness has been split into Agility and Reaction
— Obviously, Reaction is no longer a derived attribute
— Karma Pool has been replaced by an Edge attribute. Edge is used in many similar ways as Karma Pool was–it is still a “luck factor,” but it is now an attribute rather than a mark of experience. This makes it especially useful to non-cyber and non-magic characters, as they will have a way of keeping ahead of the game.
— Magic no longer starts at 6. Magic must be bought up just like any other attribute. This means that magical characters are not as powerful right out of the box as they were in previous editions.
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hahnsoo
post Apr 12 2005, 10:12 AM
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Whoa. That's a pretty drastic change. I wonder if Essence is still around.
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Critias
post Apr 12 2005, 10:22 AM
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Wow.
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SirBedevere
post Apr 12 2005, 10:39 AM
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So, the rules are being 'completely revised'? I'd say 'completely rewritten' :eek:

How much of the background is going to change?

"Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore."
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 12 2005, 10:40 AM
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I'll have to start preparing myself for the arguments about which skills link to which attributes...

I think it's a bit odd that, in the bit about what's not changing, they only said e.g. that "Karma is still used as the experience award." but nothing about how whether it's still used like it is in SR3, etc.
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hermit
post Apr 12 2005, 10:59 AM
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Oh great. I mean, splitting Intelligence and Quickness is something I have been hoping for actually, but introducing a luck factor ... that just sucks, sorry. Karma Pool was good because it reflected a character's accumulating professionalism. Now, a character can start with Edge 6, or he can stay at edge 1 forever. Also, as there're more atributes to begin with, raising a character's respective level will take even longer than it already does.

and yes, this isn't a revision, it'S a complete new rules set. I don't see how SR4 still has any element of the original Shadowrun mechanic. Too bad really; parts of the rules were really outstanding, for example the magic system. I wonder what they'll do to it.

QUOTE
Magic no longer starts at 6. Magic must be bought up just like any other attribute. This means that magical characters are not as powerful right out of the box as they were in previous editions.

Starting mages already had a hard time. Now, it's gonna be even harder on them? Bad choice.
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Fygg Nuuton
post Apr 12 2005, 11:05 AM
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i like the attribute splits, and the luck attribute is good with no karma pool. having to buy magic = good idea

i am going to miss my pools but i can live without them

And remember, "making it harder on them" im respect to mages is inaccurate. the rules wont be the same as before, so you cant say thats bein hard on them
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Grinder
post Apr 12 2005, 11:18 AM
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In SR3 mages have to buy their magic too. They have to spend 35 building points to become a fullf-fledged magician. That's expensive, so i wonder if the new rules will make it even more expensive. But hey: more power to the mundanes! :D

I dislike the luck edge, sounds like a bad attempt to re-do the effect of the current karma pool. But we'll see how it works - and noone is forced to use it. :)
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mintcar
post Apr 12 2005, 11:34 AM
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I donīt know what to say. Itīs getting harder and harder to predict how this will turn out. Every FAQ only brings more questions. I guess the "edge" attribute will be the one chance for players to influence outcome beyond the dice roll. Therefor it could naturally not work like karma pool, as starting characters would be left without any influence at all. Taking away combat pool brought this along initially, I wager. The break up of intelligence makes no sense. I would have broken the SR Int. attribute into Intelligence and Perception. Which one will determain perception, Intuition or Logic? I donīt get it.

Buying Magic from zero is a good thing. It means that you can be a bit magical and good at other things too. Taking away the all or nothing choice players have to make today.
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Adam
post Apr 12 2005, 11:42 AM
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QUOTE (mintcar)
The break up of intelligence makes no sense. I would have broken the SR Int. attribute into Intelligence and Perception. Which one will determain perception, Intuition or Logic? I donīt get it.

Intuition == Perception

Logic == Intelligence
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Hasagwan
post Apr 12 2005, 11:45 AM
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Oh boy, this one is an iffy one. Definetely need more information to really guess at how this is going to work out. One thing I can think of is that by making more attributes, you can't max out the attribute dice part too quickly and to spread out skills more so that one attribute doesn't dominate.

Intelligence is a bit odd. I'm really not sure where they're trying to go with intuition and logic except make intuition more shamanic and logic more hermetic maybe.

The quickness split though really doesn't sit well with me. I liked how reaction was linked to intel and quick in the old versions. The ability to react quickly is important but if you don't have the common sense to duck when the first bullet goes flying two centimeters from your ear, then all the speed in the world isn't going to help you. But I'm sure the street doc or Tomanus won't complain :cyber:

Magic is another thing I'm iffy about. I must be lucky since my players have never been munchkins and most spells are 3 or 4 with one or two 5 or 6s added for flavor. And how is this going to work when a mage gets cyber? Are they still going to lose magic points as well? :|

The edge just doesn't sit right. The one character that was nigh on impossible to defeat was an orc street sam (from the street sam catalog) that didn't have any cyber or other mods. Granted he was skilled and played by a person who knew the meaning of cover and tactics. Now if you play the face I can imagine you'd need some little luck factor as that's not a main combat role (I would guess he'd be worried about getting his pretty face shot up to get in the line of fire anyways :rotfl: ). But to have an attribute that is just 'pure luck' just doesn't sound good to me.

Then again after reading the changes and some of the arguments (the probability stuff comes to mind) I'm beginning to wonder if the players are the ones broken and not the system. :grinbig: I'm really going to have to thank my group for being a bunch of fluff character creators now!

Of course I'm hoping I'm wrong with this, but wow, what a shock to the system :eek:
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ankh-le-fixer
post Apr 12 2005, 11:52 AM
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i think these changes are very good :

- magic not automatically at 6 is a very good idea, it was a shame that every awaken characters has the same level of magic unless initiated!

- split intelligence and intuition is also a good idea because it cancels 2 major bugs : the fact that all streetsam have an IQ of 180 to be quick :D and that Einstein was very perceptive because the test to notice thing is based on intelligence which is very ridiculous

- split quickness and reaction, why not because the SR3 reaction vanish (and i have always wondered why SR3 quickness doesn t name dexterity because the name quickness indicate that it talks about speed which is the reaction in SR3!)

- the edge as an attribute which represent luck is a little weird but that make sense for gameplay reason if you dont have cyberware or magic you have at least an advantage!

all these changes makes that SR4 will have 10 attributes (strength, body, agility, reaction, logic, intuition, charisma, willpower, edge and magic !!!) and that will be very hard to have 6 in all attributes which is good with the change made to the core mechanics (dice pool equal to attributes + skill TN 5)

PS excuse me for the mispelling if any : english is not my native tongue
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mintcar
post Apr 12 2005, 11:55 AM
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Actually the break up of the Intelligence attribute is the first of the announcements that I really hate. Intuition and Logic are filosofical terms that signal a certain world view. Why oh why do they have to emphesize even further their perceived difference between intuition and logic? Why couldnīt this kind of thing stay in the magic system? Iīm not going to read to much into it, but it looks silly to me.
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Cougaar
post Apr 12 2005, 12:13 PM
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QUOTE (mintcar)
Actually the break up of the Intelligence attribute is the first of the announcements that I really hate. Intuition and Logic are filosofical terms that signal a certain world view. Why oh why do they have to emphesize even further their perceived difference between intuition and logic? Why couldnīt this kind of thing stay in the magic system? Iīm not going to read to much into it, but it looks silly to me.

I see the split into Intuition&Logic along the same lines as Wisdom&Intelligence in other RPGs. There's a German RPG where you have Intelligence&Intuition (they also split Agility into Agility&Dexterity, the latter meaning the fine tuned dexterity of a persons hands and fingers and hand-eye coordination).

I think it's a good thing, now you can have someone who acts on gut instincts or someone who acts on pure logic.

I'd love to see them split up Charisma - make it Charisma&Looks. I want to play an ork that is ugly as hell but one hell of a leader without having to argue endlessly everytime someone looks at my stats.

Anyways.. it looks like a whole new Shadowrun to me.. I'm still sitting on the fence until I get the whole picture and I guess that'll happen only when and if I get the finished product.
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mintcar
post Apr 12 2005, 12:15 PM
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I guess I could take it, because theyīre just words. But Intuition really has very little to do with perception as perception is used in games. Intuition is sub-concious logic. Itīs seing coherence without analysis. Itīs going to be hard to convince anyone that intuition is what gives your character the ability to see that twitch that gives away a lying Mr Johnson.
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Patrick Goodman
post Apr 12 2005, 12:17 PM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Whoa. That's a pretty drastic change. I wonder if Essence is still around.

Very much so.

And it's not too bad, in terms of being drastic, once you get used to it. I've gotta tell you, I love Magic by the point. It makes a lot of concepts a lot easier to create, since it never made much sense to me for all Awakened characters to all have the same connection to magic out of the box.
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hermit
post Apr 12 2005, 12:17 PM
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I just hope they leave the core of the damange resistance and magic system intact. It was what really made SR feel special, and what really worked well.
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Patrick Goodman
post Apr 12 2005, 12:18 PM
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QUOTE (SirBedevere)
So, the rules are being 'completely revised'? I'd say 'completely rewritten' :eek:

How much of the background is going to change?

So far, exactly 0%. In the foreseeable future, exactly 0%.
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Patrick Goodman
post Apr 12 2005, 12:23 PM
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QUOTE (mintcar @ Apr 12 2005, 06:55 AM)
Actually the break up of the Intelligence attribute is the first of the announcements that I really hate. Intuition and Logic are filosofical terms that signal a certain world view. Why oh why do they have to emphesize even further their perceived difference between intuition and logic? Why couldnīt this kind of thing stay in the magic system? Iīm not going to read to much into it, but it looks silly to me.

Because Intuition/Perception and Logic/Intelligence/deductive reasoning aren't the same thing? You can be very intelligent, very logical, and not notice the naked woman standing in the door of your lab (you laugh, but I've seen it happen). You might notice all 23 clues at the scene of the crime, but you can't put any of them together. Neither is an unlikely scenario, though in the SR3 system you either had it all or you had none of it.

It's not a perceived difference. It's an actual one.
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Backgammon
post Apr 12 2005, 12:29 PM
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I like this update. In fact, I'm sorry to see Charisma wasn't broken up into Beauty and Personality, or at least transfer some of the weird willpowerish uses of Charisma into Willpower (of course not because it wasn't mentionned in the update that this hasn't been done).

The split of intelligence is SO right... it was getting stupid anyway to say critters get 2 attributes for int but metahumans don't.

Buying Magic by the point makes sense, sorta. Various level of Awakenedness are good. The "all or nothing" (unless SURGED) aspect of magic always kinda bugged me. People that partially Awaken to only Astral Sight or a weak mastery of magic makes sense.

Of course I'm also a little worried that every character and their mother now is gonne have 1 or 2 points of magic and 2-3 useful spells, making the world overpopulated by mages. But you won't be able to do that, right? You're either (mostly) mage or not, right?

The Edge attribute, I am also less keen on. I understand why it was done, that way you can spend your Build Points on it instead of cyber to make unaugmented meat bags viable characters.

But unaugmented meatbags shouldn't be viable characters. The guy cybered up should own the guy that isn't augmented. Guess that's a little "reality" out the windo for the sake of character diversity.
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mmu1
post Apr 12 2005, 12:30 PM
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Am I the only one so far who thinks that having an "Edge" attribute that's apparently there to let non-magic non-cyber characters keep up sort of runs contrary to the way the SR world works? (Edit: Guess not... Damn you, Backgammon)

I guess it depends on how much of a factor it ends up being (how much of a difference it actually makes) for non-magical non-cybered mundanes, and whether everyone, not just the runners, has it - but as written in the FAQ, it strikes me as a really bad idea.

Non-cybered mundanes aren't supposed to be able to keep up - that's why so many people carve away pieces of their souls to get cybernetically enhanced.

Oh, and No Karma Pool = The Suck
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hobgoblin
post Apr 12 2005, 12:38 PM
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buying a the magic attribute allows for more fexible character concepts i think. rather then going full mage or no mage you can now go a dabbler with a bit of power and maybe astral perception. it kinda brings back the astral adept in a way :P

i wonder if not dexterity would be a better name for agility if its going to cover all the ranged weapons skills. but thats just a guess...

one things for sure, this is a total rewrite, no question about it. d&d started it, wod got on the bandwagon and now both cyberpunk and sr is getting a rewrite. looks like we are getting a new generation of the classics :P
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Penta
post Apr 12 2005, 12:42 PM
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Goddammit. Why'd they split up Qui and Int and not something that NEEDED to be split up, like Charisma?
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mintcar
post Apr 12 2005, 12:50 PM
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Charisma doesnīt need to be split up. It signifies your influence over other people. If that influence is due to your good looks or winning personality is the province of character discription.
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blakkie
post Apr 12 2005, 12:52 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I'll have to start preparing myself for the arguments about which skills link to which attributes...

You mean prepare for -different- arguements. The old ones never really stopped, did they? :) If they reorganize the skills vs. attributes there is going to be some confusion for longtime SR players on top of that. *shrug*

I kinda like the magic idea, maybe. Right now you have to go all out for magic in allocating point buy. If they drop the entry requirement for being awakened but you then have to buy the magic points to get up to 6 that really means for flexibility. Sort of like BeCKs where you can buy discrete aspects of being awakened.
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