Whoa. That's a pretty drastic change. I wonder if Essence is still around.

Wow.

So, the rules are being 'completely revised'? I'd say 'completely rewritten'

How much of the background is going to change?

"Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore."

I'll have to start preparing myself for the arguments about which skills link to which attributes...

I think it's a bit odd that, in the bit about what's not changing, they only said e.g. that "Karma is still used as the experience award." but nothing about how whether it's still used like it is in SR3, etc.

Oh great. I mean, splitting Intelligence and Quickness is something I have been hoping for actually, but introducing a luck factor ... that just sucks, sorry. Karma Pool was good because it reflected a character's accumulating professionalism. Now, a character can start with Edge 6, or he can stay at edge 1 forever. Also, as there're more atributes to begin with, raising a character's respective level will take even longer than it already does.

and yes, this isn't a revision, it'S a complete new rules set. I don't see how SR4 still has any element of the original Shadowrun mechanic. Too bad really; parts of the rules were really outstanding, for example the magic system. I wonder what they'll do to it.

i like the attribute splits, and the luck attribute is good with no karma pool. having to buy magic = good idea

i am going to miss my pools but i can live without them

And remember, "making it harder on them" im respect to mages is inaccurate. the rules wont be the same as before, so you cant say thats bein hard on them

In SR3 mages have to buy their magic too. They have to spend 35 building points to become a fullf-fledged magician. That's expensive, so i wonder if the new rules will make it even more expensive. But hey: more power to the mundanes!

I dislike the luck edge, sounds like a bad attempt to re-do the effect of the current karma pool. But we'll see how it works - and noone is forced to use it.

I don´t know what to say. It´s getting harder and harder to predict how this will turn out. Every FAQ only brings more questions. I guess the "edge" attribute will be the one chance for players to influence outcome beyond the dice roll. Therefor it could naturally not work like karma pool, as starting characters would be left without any influence at all. Taking away combat pool brought this along initially, I wager. The break up of intelligence makes no sense. I would have broken the SR Int. attribute into Intelligence and Perception. Which one will determain perception, Intuition or Logic? I don´t get it.

Buying Magic from zero is a good thing. It means that you can be a bit magical and good at other things too. Taking away the all or nothing choice players have to make today.

Oh boy, this one is an iffy one. Definetely need more information to really guess at how this is going to work out. One thing I can think of is that by making more attributes, you can't max out the attribute dice part too quickly and to spread out skills more so that one attribute doesn't dominate.

Intelligence is a bit odd. I'm really not sure where they're trying to go with intuition and logic except make intuition more shamanic and logic more hermetic maybe.

The quickness split though really doesn't sit well with me. I liked how reaction was linked to intel and quick in the old versions. The ability to react quickly is important but if you don't have the common sense to duck when the first bullet goes flying two centimeters from your ear, then all the speed in the world isn't going to help you. But I'm sure the street doc or Tomanus won't complain

Magic is another thing I'm iffy about. I must be lucky since my players have never been munchkins and most spells are 3 or 4 with one or two 5 or 6s added for flavor. And how is this going to work when a mage gets cyber? Are they still going to lose magic points as well?

The edge just doesn't sit right. The one character that was nigh on impossible to defeat was an orc street sam (from the street sam catalog) that didn't have any cyber or other mods. Granted he was skilled and played by a person who knew the meaning of cover and tactics. Now if you play the face I can imagine you'd need some little luck factor as that's not a main combat role (I would guess he'd be worried about getting his pretty face shot up to get in the line of fire anyways ). But to have an attribute that is just 'pure luck' just doesn't sound good to me.

Then again after reading the changes and some of the arguments (the probability stuff comes to mind) I'm beginning to wonder if the players are the ones broken and not the system. I'm really going to have to thank my group for being a bunch of fluff character creators now!

Of course I'm hoping I'm wrong with this, but wow, what a shock to the system

i think these changes are very good :

- magic not automatically at 6 is a very good idea, it was a shame that every awaken characters has the same level of magic unless initiated!

- split intelligence and intuition is also a good idea because it cancels 2 major bugs : the fact that all streetsam have an IQ of 180 to be quick and that Einstein was very perceptive because the test to notice thing is based on intelligence which is very ridiculous

- split quickness and reaction, why not because the SR3 reaction vanish (and i have always wondered why SR3 quickness doesn t name dexterity because the name quickness indicate that it talks about speed which is the reaction in SR3!)

- the edge as an attribute which represent luck is a little weird but that make sense for gameplay reason if you dont have cyberware or magic you have at least an advantage!

all these changes makes that SR4 will have 10 attributes (strength, body, agility, reaction, logic, intuition, charisma, willpower, edge and magic !!!) and that will be very hard to have 6 in all attributes which is good with the change made to the core mechanics (dice pool equal to attributes + skill TN 5)

PS excuse me for the mispelling if any : english is not my native tongue

Actually the break up of the Intelligence attribute is the first of the announcements that I really hate. Intuition and Logic are filosofical terms that signal a certain world view. Why oh why do they have to emphesize even further their perceived difference between intuition and logic? Why couldn´t this kind of thing stay in the magic system? I´m not going to read to much into it, but it looks silly to me.

I guess I could take it, because they´re just words. But Intuition really has very little to do with perception as perception is used in games. Intuition is sub-concious logic. It´s seing coherence without analysis. It´s going to be hard to convince anyone that intuition is what gives your character the ability to see that twitch that gives away a lying Mr Johnson.

I just hope they leave the core of the damange resistance and magic system intact. It was what really made SR feel special, and what really worked well.

I like this update. In fact, I'm sorry to see Charisma wasn't broken up into Beauty and Personality, or at least transfer some of the weird willpowerish uses of Charisma into Willpower (of course not because it wasn't mentionned in the update that this hasn't been done).

The split of intelligence is SO right... it was getting stupid anyway to say critters get 2 attributes for int but metahumans don't.

Buying Magic by the point makes sense, sorta. Various level of Awakenedness are good. The "all or nothing" (unless SURGED) aspect of magic always kinda bugged me. People that partially Awaken to only Astral Sight or a weak mastery of magic makes sense.

Of course I'm also a little worried that every character and their mother now is gonne have 1 or 2 points of magic and 2-3 useful spells, making the world overpopulated by mages. But you won't be able to do that, right? You're either (mostly) mage or not, right?

The Edge attribute, I am also less keen on. I understand why it was done, that way you can spend your Build Points on it instead of cyber to make unaugmented meat bags viable characters.

But unaugmented meatbags shouldn't be viable characters. The guy cybered up should own the guy that isn't augmented. Guess that's a little "reality" out the windo for the sake of character diversity.

Am I the only one so far who thinks that having an "Edge" attribute that's apparently there to let non-magic non-cyber characters keep up sort of runs contrary to the way the SR world works? (Edit: Guess not... Damn you, Backgammon)

I guess it depends on how much of a factor it ends up being (how much of a difference it actually makes) for non-magical non-cybered mundanes, and whether everyone, not just the runners, has it - but as written in the FAQ, it strikes me as a really bad idea.

Non-cybered mundanes aren't supposed to be able to keep up - that's why so many people carve away pieces of their souls to get cybernetically enhanced.

Oh, and No Karma Pool = The Suck

buying a the magic attribute allows for more fexible character concepts i think. rather then going full mage or no mage you can now go a dabbler with a bit of power and maybe astral perception. it kinda brings back the astral adept in a way

i wonder if not dexterity would be a better name for agility if its going to cover all the ranged weapons skills. but thats just a guess...

one things for sure, this is a total rewrite, no question about it. d&d started it, wod got on the bandwagon and now both cyberpunk and sr is getting a rewrite. looks like we are getting a new generation of the classics

Goddammit. Why'd they split up Qui and Int and not something that NEEDED to be split up, like Charisma?

Charisma doesn´t need to be split up. It signifies your influence over other people. If that influence is due to your good looks or winning personality is the province of character discription.

Seems more and more like "The Shadows" are gonna become "A World of Darkness" and I don't like it.

I was hopeful for an actual "Revision". I guess they can get away with saying "Revision" because the game still uses d6's. But, it is a redesign and in my opinion sounds more and more like a "Downgrade" rather than an "Upgrade" to the rules.

I have yet to see where the game retains any of the prior system. I know it has been said more than one time that the reason a lot of people like Shadowrun for the setting. Thats all well and good, but to me what set the game apart was the rules. I could use d20 Modern rules set and make a "Shadowrun-ish" setting. I could use the World of Darkness even. But, the rules made the game "feel" like Shadowrun.

Ok.
Penta why Charisma for the split?

I would have liked to see a destinction between Dexterity and Agility rather than Agility and Reaction.
The split in intelligence is great its always been a peeve of mine.
I lik idea of Variable starting Magic which was only really availble to Magicans Way Adepts and even then not like this.
Edge Hmmm will need to be convinced.
Can it be bought up or is it fixed?

If they do that, they effectively make the huge sacrifices in humanity cyberware brings highly uneconomical, and that would rape the entire world concept, far beyond screwing around with the rules system; it's greatly affect the way the world as such - fluff and all - operates.

I hope you're wrong.

It's not connected to magic or 'ware. But it does cost to raise, like any other attribute, meaning if you invest in it seriously, you're taking those points from something else.

But I'm still of mixed feeling about Edge.

Actually I had thought about mentioning an idea of Magic being equal to willpower + charisma + intelligence / 3 but I figured I would get dogpiled even talking about it.

Honestly it's not that bad of an idea as you can simulate low powered adepts and mages without neccesarily having to sacrifice alot of flexibility when you cyber up.

For instance maybe they don't have a base cost for being an awakened character but rather Magic 1 costs 10 Build Points, Magic 2 costs 30, etc. Maybe make adept magic points cost 5, 15, etc or 7, 21, etc. Overall it could allow people design characters with a small amount of magical edge that for lack of training or desire never really developed the spark. It's been mentioned several times in books so why not simulate it somehow.

As for division of some attributes and not some others I suspect it really is more about balancing the skill lists design wise than some grand concept. For instance if you look at quickness in SR3 there is a huge number of quickness linked skills currently. To keep quickness from becoming the end all be all stat in SR4 (outside of making levels of various attributes cost different amounts based on the utility of the attribute which is a hideously inelegant design method) you need to balance the number of skills linked to each attribute. So if you have 45 active skills in SR4 you'd likely want 9 groups of 5 skills each. After you've done that you pretty much need to come up for some concept that links the skill + attribute concepts together.

Fundamentally it's not that bad of a design choice as it allows more granular and balanced design. Of course the main thing is that you don't want to have so many attributes so as to make them individually useless so 9-10 attributes is pretty much the logical limit.

Yes consequently Charisma might remain a pretty potent attribute in SR4 but considering most people's game choices aren't about maximizing social skill interaction it's probably good not to hurt face characters too much.

Does anyone think its possible for "Essence" to be replaced by "Humanity" rating or that the new system for "Essence" will work like WoD's "humanity"?

With the sudden increase in attributes, I wonder a lot more about character creation and karma awards..

With the increase in the number of attributes and so on, then unless there are more points to throw around, the average character created would logically be weaker (based on the information we have at present) -- just because they have to be spread out more. Mages? Well, if you have to buy 'awakened' as well, then you've just lost a LOT of points -- so available points for everything else is lower. If you don't have to buy awakened, then I predict a glut of people with a little bit of magic -- because a small armour spell is really helpful, etc.

Likewise, with more attributes to throw karma into to increase, then you have to be a lot more experienced to advance to the same degree -- SR3, 300 karma on a non-awakened, you can have almost all your attributes at RML or higher, and almost every active skill in the book at various levels (I know a lot of mine are 2,3.. bunch at 4-6 with specializations higher).. but defaulting becomes a nonissue.

Magic
This should raise some ripples in the Mages are too powerful/No they're not threads.

And I wonder how this will impact adepts, considering their abilities are purchased directly from their Magic rating versus wizards who are limited in the power of their spells, but not number.

Attribute split
It looks like the revision is focusing on the commonly held aspects of the game and not addressing softer areas.

1. Firearms gets split into multiple, specific skills
2. Etiquette goes from specific sub-skills (Street, Corp, etc.) to one all-encompassing skill
3. The heavily tapped combat stats - Quickness and Int are getting attention
4. Charisma - the roleplaying stat, is not

While I grant most of SR players tend to be power-hungry Holy Handgrenade bunnies and it makes sense to focus on clarifying the skills and stats of most interest to the larger demographic, Charisma has always been a poorly defined attribute and one that could stand some clarification.

And having an appreciable distinction between personality and the superficial outer shell goes further to distinguish people from the walking technical illusions.

-Siege

Edit: For code typos

After reading this thread i get the impression that a lot more characters will be at least weak awakened. I once tried to build a half-burnout shaman, but it was horrible. But now, with maybe the possibility to buy only two or three magic points, it will become much easier i guess - and much more common. Don't know what i should think of it.

I would like to see the new attribute edge be affected in a negative way by magic or cyber/bio. Really mundane (no bio and no cyber) would have an advantage this way. But who really wants to play a char without anything?

And i'm curious as hell about the new initiative system and how the boys will work out the new karma rewards.

Attribute splitting isn't such a bad thing...a

I would assume that any character creation system at this point in time will look more like a karma/build point system like Becks2.0. Not because it's the only way to do things but that it seems like that's a better method for insuring that attributes aren't purchased to the exclusion of everything else.

I'm still mixed on whether there should be one big pile of points like becks or if they should do something like three piles (Attributes, Skills, Augmentations). Personally I kinda like the three piles system now that I know magic is just another attribute (if reaction can also be purchased up from a base this might also be a good system).

So if you have 3 pools you might have enough attribute points to average 4s in every stat but magic and if you want magic one you regular stats take a hit. Everyone would be equally skilled (somewhat a problem simulating some character types) but would devote those skills to various concentrations etc. Finally augmentation pool would pay for stuff like spells, nuyen pool, edges and merits. You could even have a system where unused points from each pool can be saved on a 1 for 1 basis to a later phase (attributes then skills then augments so no spending your wad on attributes as it's the first phase). This would allow a weak attribute character to be extraordinarily skilled or a relative novice to have lots of resources.

Personally I'd even allow unused character points to buy edge pool dice so as to simulate that perenial favorite of beginners luck.

As for defaulting I'm assuming that all skills are linked to an attribute so defaulting pretty much is rolling your attribute dice vs TN 5 whether this uses a penalty to number of dice rolled or successes required really depends on how much they consider it a hit.

Other ideas with Magic a purchased attribute I suspect that magical skills will be linked to magic rather than willpower as in SR3. Thus a sorcery test might be Magic + Sorcery skill vs TN5 etc. This would represent casting spells as a function of magic ability rather than strength of will etc.

In order to compensate for willpower being weakened I wonder if some of the social skills will change thier linked attribute to willpower. Intimidation and Interrogation would be interesting but I could also see some subset of Negotiation being used.

One area I'm interested in learning is whether Vehicle skills will remain reaction linked and what formula will be used to determine reaction.

Attribute splitting isn't such a bad thing...at least I'm glad they stuck with Quickness and Intelligence and didn't split all attributes (like Strength into two different ones). Which to me says it was done not only to solve some inconstency problems with things like high intelligence meant high awareness, but also to rebalance the attributes so that not one single attribute help more sway over any of the others. In SR3 I don't think I ever made a character without first maxing Quickness and Intelligence (then Willpower and Body) and then spending left over points on Charisma/Strength. Unless playing a Mage. Then it was Int/Will, followed by Cha/Quick, then Str/Body... Intelligence and Quickness were deffinately far more usefull than the other attributes...

As currently described, the Edge attribute sounds like something from a lot of RPG computer games. You know the ones where they had the "Luck" attribute. Not that that is truly a bad thing...just something I noticed.

And with naming the attribute "Edge", I assume that means Edges and Flaws will no longer be part of the system. Which is too bad because I was hoping that with the change to point buy being in the main rules, then Edges/Flaws would be included in the main rules as well. Then again maybe they will be under different names....but I doubt it.

I've been silent on these boards since the announcement came out. I admit, I've been skeptical since I first heard the announcement. So many other systems have come out with a new edition just to force people to buy new books and make money. But the more I learn about this new "revision", the more I absolutely friggin HATE the sound of it. I understand that everything new sounds bad, and that if maybe half of the stuff sounds like a good idea and half of it sounds bad; that in the end it's probably an all-around improvement. But I'm hardly hearing anything that sounds less than awful for the game. Now I'm not rounding up villiagers and getting torches and pitchforks ready....yet....because maybe....just maybe.....they're doing an abysmall job of explaining/selling what it is they're trying to do, but I'm sorry to say I think SR has peaked and is on its way down. I'll never stop playing, of course, with my trusty 3rd ed books. I'll even keep buying the 4th ed books.....because I'm a MORON, and because I want the story (even if mine diverges), and I want the flavor, and because I friggin' LOVE THE GAME. But that doesn't mean I'm remotely happy with what I'm hearing.
I suppose that on the bright side, when it finally does come out, it can't....just CAN'T....be worse than I'm expecting.