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Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
1. Yes I am.
2. That is part of the reason.

Let me guess, Susan. You were teed off by the part where Talon flings his magic dagger at the insect shaman hiding behind the mana barrier, right? Even though the magic of the dagger would have been deactivated by Talon letting go of it, it's unlikely that Talon would have staged a knife (base L damage) up to D damage on what was presumably a default roll (since Talon probably dosen't have Thrown Weapons) and yet he managed to dramatically one-shot the insect shaman.

Okay, I agree, that part of the novel was unlikely rules-wise. Unless Talon hyper-karmaed his throw into astronomical levels of success, which I guess that he could do if he's got hundreds of karma in the bank.
Wounded Ronin
Double post database error AAGGHH!
hahnsoo
The Fling spell, perhaps?
Nikoli
Modified Hand of God rule? Permanently blow your karma pool to garuntee a kill, no matter how silly?
mfb
QUOTE (Ellery)
What if the character thinks they can summon both nature spirits and elementals? What if they think they can take the critter power movement as a metamagic? Does it work or not? Why or why not?

you're talking about changing the rule mechanics to fit the character's belief system. i'm talking about fitting a character's belief system into the existing mechanics. totally different things.
Critias
QUOTE (mfb)
you're talking about changing the rule mechanics to fit the character's belief system. i'm talking about fitting a character's belief system into the existing mechanics. totally different things.

Sort of what I think'd be neat, too.

I wouldn't mind a -- for lack of a better term -- a modular magic system, almost. An optional system, in addition to rather than instead of the canon ones, where people could do something like pay 5 bp for the ability to summon spirits instead of elementals, or something. The magic system could be set up so that characters chose what part of so-and-so they liked (what summoning they wanted to be capable of, what metamagics they might never be able to do, what spell modifiers seemed appropriate, what sort of studying/formula research they needed), so that everything would be set up to be pretty much character specific. Instead of picking "shaman" or "hermetic" or even "wu jen" or "Tir Paths," you'd pick each capability, each factor, independently of the others if you wanted to. You could still pick an "out of the box" magical style, just as you can choose to play an archetype straight from the book, right now. But if you wanted, you could squiggle right into whatever spiritual/powerful niche you had in mind for your character...

...which, of course, would never work and should never be published, because it relies almost totally on characters and GMs working together, communicating, and ending up with something they both agree on as balanced, fair, and appropriate for a given game. Instead you'd see Canon-Companionesque munchkinization, penalties to spell types they never wanted to cast anyways, etc, etc.

But in theory it's the sort of individualistically-belief driven system I think'd be slick.
Critias
Goddammit. I didn't hit reload, this time.
Demonseed Elite
Hehehe, yeah, I thought something like that would be great too, Critias. But I also agree how it would likely be horribly abused. I was thinking about it awhile back (way before I knew anything about SR4, actually) when I was trying to reason how SR can continue to show all these different global magical traditions without adding tons of new rules.
mfb
i think it could be done, if combined with the current system--allow players to mix and match, but make mixing and matching more expensive than taking one of the existing magical types. in other words, you could be a hermetic/shamanic/wujen mage for 30 bp, or you could be Create-a-Mage for 45 bp.
Critias
I just think something like that would be a cool way for everyone to fit in their own zany religion/belief system/lifestyle choice, without each and every one needing chapter after chapter about it in canon SR material. Giving game-stat modifiers for various magical stuff, for the three or four different flavors of paganism (or whatever it's called this week) like a recent SotA did really left kind of a bad taste in my mouth -- I don't think we need stat mods for Catholic mages, Protestant mages, NAN Shamanic mages, Tir Tairngire Prince-worshipping mages, Tolkien fetishists, Buddhists, Muslims, the eight-hundred flavors of Baptists, and on and on and on and on.

Put up some guidelines, attach a fair (or, in fact, overly steep!) point cost to each one, and let someone do it themselves. That way if I make East Southern Baptist Antioch Church of Christ and His Disciples (who hates them those Western Southern blah blah blah heathens) as a religion/magical belief foundation, and my mage kicks all the other mages' butts? It's not the game that's saying my religion is better than someone else's religion, at anything. It's me saying it, using the game as a tool.

I get nervous when I see game stats associated with real-world faiths. Not that *I* care, but because I know there are crazy people out there that do.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Critias)
I just think something like that would be a cool way for everyone to fit in their own zany religion/belief system/lifestyle choice, without each and every one needing chapter after chapter about it in canon SR material. Giving game-stat modifiers for various magical stuff, for the three or four different flavors of paganism (or whatever it's called this week) like a recent SotA did really left kind of a bad taste in my mouth -- I don't think we need stat mods for Catholic mages, Protestant mages, NAN Shamanic mages, Tir Tairngire Prince-worshipping mages, Tolkien fetishists, Buddhists, Muslims, the eight-hundred flavors of Baptists, and on and on and on and on.

Put up some guidelines, attach a fair (or, in fact, overly steep!) point cost to each one, and let someone do it themselves. That way if I make East Southern Baptist Antioch Church of Christ and His Disciples (who hates them those Western Southern blah blah blah heathens) as a religion/magical belief foundation, and my mage kicks all the other mages' butts? It's not the game that's saying my religion is better than someone else's religion, at anything. It's me saying it, using the game as a tool.

I get nervous when I see game stats associated with real-world faiths. Not that *I* care, but because I know there are crazy people out there that do.

*ksssh* *ksssh*

"Your Baptist powers are weak, old man. You are no match for the EMPEROR of Catholics!"

http://www.francesco.biz/papa.jpg
Nikoli
QUOTE (mfb)
i think it could be done, if combined with the current system--allow players to mix and match, but make mixing and matching more expensive than taking one of the existing magical types. in other words, you could be a hermetic/shamanic/wujen mage for 30 bp, or you could be Create-a-Mage for 45 bp.

Good point. Maybe some sort of take a restriction, reduce the cost type thing. Something to get the DIY down to the cost of the pre-fab traditions.
Demonseed Elite
Yeah, it's a natural conflict between wanting to represent these various traditions accurately and at the same time wanting to fit them into the mechanics. When I find myself working on these aspects, it's not that I want to put in rules exceptions for them (hell, I hate the rules exceptions), but I find that the existing rules don't accurately reflect what I'm working on at all. So it's tough.
Nikoli
I do like the idea of a more flexible system.
There are tons of fluff articles and some books involving spontaneous magical eruptions from seemingly mundane persons (though it usually kills them in the process) that powerful mages couldn't handle. Though that might be categorized as the taboo Path of Madness as the events almost invariably involve extremly stressful situations.

Like any system now, it can be abused. There isn't a system out there that can't be. The trick is for a competent GM to know when someone is abusing the system, and for them to roll up the appropriate piece of paper (or papers) and whack the offending player on the nose, tell them in a firm voice No and then rub their nose in it.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Apr 21 2005, 12:54 AM)
1. Yes I am.
2. That is part of the reason.

Let me guess, Susan.

What ever gave you the impression that the courtesy I offered to Mr. Kenson in any way applies to you?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Apr 21 2005, 07:12 AM)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Apr 21 2005, 12:54 AM)
1. Yes I am.
2. That is part of the reason.

Let me guess, Susan.

What ever gave you the impression that the courtesy I offered to Mr. Kenson in any way applies to you?

Whatever gave you the impression that you could stop anyone from calling you what they feel like, especially on the Internet? biggrin.gif Just kidding.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Apr 21 2005, 07:12 AM)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Apr 21 2005, 12:54 AM)
1. Yes I am.
2. That is part of the reason.

Let me guess, Susan.

What ever gave you the impression that the courtesy I offered to Mr. Kenson in any way applies to you?

What, didn't you watch Sexy Commando?
Cain
Actually, breaking down traditions is pretty easy. All you have to do is decide what kind of spirits will be summoned (nature spirits/elementals/spirits of the elements/loa), spell bonuses/penalties (if any; a generic +2/-2 would be nice), and if the tradition requires libraries or lodges.

I did this to create a Jedi tradition. The Jedi could summon nature spirits, but not spirits of man; instead they summoned a form of ancestor spirits that appeared in the form of ancient Jedi masters. They required a library made up of old Star wars memoribilia. And, they were mostly Fire-bringer shamans, with those penalties and bonuses. Simple, easy, and balanced.
mfb
yeah, but also fairly easily abusable. it's not a bad idea, but i'm not sure if it should be allowed because it'd be easy for an enterprising player to twist into something horrible.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Cain)
Actually, breaking down traditions is pretty easy. All you have to do is decide what kind of spirits will be summoned (nature spirits/elementals/spirits of the elements/loa), spell bonuses/penalties (if any; a generic +2/-2 would be nice), and if the tradition requires libraries or lodges.

I did this to create a Jedi tradition. The Jedi could summon nature spirits, but not spirits of man; instead they summoned a form of ancestor spirits that appeared in the form of ancient Jedi masters. They required a library made up of old Star wars memoribilia. And, they were mostly Fire-bringer shamans, with those penalties and bonuses. Simple, easy, and balanced.

But, how did you deal with lightsabers?
Cain
Modified monowhips with a max reach of +1. Whenever possible, I tried to use existing rules instead of coming up with totally new ones.
Cain
QUOTE (mfb)
yeah, but also fairly easily abusable. it's not a bad idea, but i'm not sure if it should be allowed because it'd be easy for an enterprising player to twist into something horrible.

If we restrict the character to one type of spirit, that can't be abused. And while I see a lot of people choosing lodges over libraries, they forget the important thing-- libraries are portable.

The only abuseable part is the totem bonus, which is why I suggested a flat +2/-2 to various spell categories. That's actually worse than some of the existing totem modifiers, so it's not a great way to powergame.
booklord
The intelligence split:
------------------------
Probably a good idea. But I think it depends on how the split goes. For example will Shamans use intuition and Mages use Logic?


The quickness split and decoupling of reaction from intelligence :
-------------------------------------------------------------------
This is going to help non-awakened characters quite a bit. While dumbing them down at the same time.


The edge atrtibute:
-------------------
Depends how it works. Could be very bad if it allows mundane characters to stand toe to toe with cybered stong men. It also depends on badly it can be abused.



Having to raise the magic attribute:
-------------------------------------
First they'll need some method of making magic costly enough that every character won't be a little magic. Second they'll need to make sure that this doesn't unbalance the game something fierce.

I think the magic gain is only the tip of the iceburg though. I suspect they'll tinker with all the character types so they'll all start weaker. Samurai will only have limited starting access to cyberware. Deckers ( and riggers since their melding the two together ) will have limited equipment. All Skills will start weaker. So what we'll have is that all characters will start off as sortof junior shadowrunners. ( I wouldn't look to kindly on this. One of Shadowrun's strengths IMHO is that newly developed characters generally were good enough to be dangerous. It also straight-jackets the GM into lower power campaigns in the beginning unless of course the GM says "screw it" and gives the characters a boatload of karma and/or cash to get them off their feet. )
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (booklord @ Apr 22 2005, 12:25 PM)
The intelligence split:
------------------------
Probably a good idea.  But I think it depends on how the split goes.  For example will Shamans use intuition and Mages use Logic?

I asked the same question in playtesting. Haven't seen an answer yet, but I like the idea and might push for it.
QUOTE
The quickness split and decoupling of reaction from intelligence :
-------------------------------------------------------------------
This is going to help non-awakened characters quite a bit.  While dumbing them down at the same time.

I don't see how, unless you refer to them no longer needing a 6 INT to have a decent Reaction as "dumbing down." Could you explain?
QUOTE
The edge atrtibute:
-------------------
Depends how it works.  Could be very bad if it allows mundane characters to stand toe to toe with cybered stong men.  It also depends on badly it can be abused.

I don't think it can be abused as badly as Karma Pool can, but YMMV.

I don't think I'll comment on the rest of your post; let's just say I don't agree with you completely on some of it.
Bigity
By "dumbing down", he means, IMO, that without needing a high INT to get a good Reaction, more players are going to set INT to a lower value, and pump Reaction instead.

So, they get better Reaction, but lower INT, overall.

So, are you saying the purpose of Edge is to even up mundanes when compared to the awakened folks and razorboys? Can a cyber-monster invest the same amount of karma and reap the exact same benefits from Edge as a mundane? What about magicians and adepts?
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Bigity)
So, are you saying the purpose of Edge is to even up mundanes when compared to the awakened folks and razorboys? Can a cyber-monster invest the same amount of karma and reap the exact same benefits from Edge as a mundane? What about magicians and adepts?

Let's see...in order:

The purpose isn't so much to even up mundanes versus augmented types as to give them a shot. You still have to think in combat, for instance; you can't rely on Edge because it's finite, and it will run out on you. But with some Edge thrown in, the mundane might have a shot. Combat with augmented characters isn't, by any stretch of the imagination, the only use for Edge, any more than it was the only use for Karma Pool.

Heavily chromed types can invest their Karma into their Edge attribute and get exactly the same benefits as a mundane can from said Edge, just as they could get the same benefits from Karma Pool that a mundane could. Ditto for magicians and adepts. Where it's going to affect Awakened types is detouring Karma from their spells and abilities into their Edge.
Nikoli
So, sorta like Karma Pool, but not as mandatory.
Bigity
Ah, that sounds just fine to me then. I was just afraid it was going to be some mundane-only kind of deal.

Thanks Patrick.
Nikoli
Yeah, and I might add, sounds much better than losing 1/10 of my karma to something I have rarely used in the past.

I can remember, off the top, 5 instances where I used my KP to reroll failures.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Nikoli)
So, sorta like Karma Pool, but not as mandatory.

Exactly.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Yeah, and I might add, sounds much better than losing 1/10 of my karma to something I have rarely used in the past.

I can remember, off the top, 5 instances where I used my KP to reroll failures.

So the rest of us should lose our KPs?
Lantzer
QUOTE (Wireknight)
Simply put, they either need to stop portraying any cyberware at all as something accessible to the gritty cyberpunk street-dwelling survivor... an option that just reduces fun factor and would require a lot of historical revisionism, or cyberware like limb and organ replacements, basic physical mods, and cyberweapons, at the very least, need to be reduced in cost so that they're available to those who supposedly employ them a lot, in fiction.

Amen. I started a gritty street level game, and it _is_ a pain to afford even minor cyber for the street-level character.

Heck, I've got my group graduating right now from the streets intp the professional shadows, and the biggest problem I'm facing is how to feed the mundanes plausible ways of affording the basic cyber they want.

One of these characters managed to put together a bankroll, only to blow it on getting their first fake SIN. I've had johnsons who were freindly to the opportunity to pay in cyber-implantation (because it costs them less), but the mage wasn't interested, and the others are somewhat paranoid about AOD tracers or kinkbombs or the like.

I've given them a huge potential windfall recently - we'll see if they put it to good use.
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Yeah, and I might add, sounds much better than losing 1/10 of my karma to something I have rarely used in the past.

I can remember, off the top, 5 instances where I used my KP to reroll failures.

QUOTE ("The Sage of Trial and Torment")
If ye have karma pool at the end of a run, then the run be too easy for the likes of ye


I can't think of any run that my group has had karma at the end of.. and I can think of many that we really, REALLY needed it at the end. But, we tend to be of the mind that you judge challenges by karma pool remaining and amount of damage taken.. and we get challenged often.
Nikoli
That's possible. Point is, if you want a huge KP like mechanic, it's there. For me, I can take or leave. Who knows, maybe in the new system I'll have more use for it.
Never said I didn't like it. I love my airbag, but I never want to need it and I'd raise cane if someone took it away. KP is insurance, good to have, when you need it it's like you don't have enough and if everything goes to plan, you'll never touch it.

Keep in mind, I've had very few games outside of here on DS that allowed me to accrue anythign resembling double-digits in a KP. Hell I can think of only a sparse handful that were played enough to get past 3 or 4, the groups were just too fragile schedule wise to maintain any longevity in play, so I would always hold back on using any KP, for fea rthat I might need it inthe very next round. After a while, I stopped even looking at it, just dutifully sacrificed the automatic point from GK to KP and went on with life. I know that's not the norm. Never meant to imply nobody should be allowed to have a KP, I know enough to know I am not the one to decide for everyone else.
Botch
Replace experience (KP) with luck (Edge)? Oh great, no general benefit from been there, done that, its all I'm luck guy? That's not mucking things up, I'm sure there's plenty of people queueing up to be unlucky.
mfb
Edge != luck. experience is a resource that aids your character. the only difference is, you can now purchase this resource during chargen, or choose to get more out of your experience during character upgrades.
Botch
But instead of it being an accumulating attribute that is increased by experience, it becomes an attribute that people can pick and choose what experience meant to them irrespective of how they have been experiencing life.

By allowing Edge to represent a bonus that increases as and when somebody feels like it and is used to boost activities or make impossible tasks possible it is luck, whether you want to call it that or not.
mfb
yes, because that's how luck works in real life. i decide i really want something to happen, and that makes it so that random factors involved in the desired occurence are more likely to turn out favorable to me.

oh, wait! i got confused. luck is completely random, as far as anyone can tell. that means that Edge is much more akin to experience, which lets you not screw up when less-experienced people might. and if you'll notice, luck is something that you have to spend karma--aka experience--on.
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