Yeah, I have enough problems listening to the multiple voices in my head....

You might wish to give this link a look XM-214 GE Minigun

Only two pages ago was this discussed. It is very, very limited.

Vuron, though he should have clearly said, it was talking about small arms. Miniguns of the 134 and 214 types need not apply.

My point was, that this weapon(s) system exists today in RL, now can you imagine just what they will be able to do in 50-70 years.

I guess that's a good way to secure funding for your agency.

I don't think we're looking at raising Magic with Karma like other attributes during advancement; I don't think that's going to change from what we have now. What we're doing with chargen, though, is something else again. The idea behind it in chargen is that not everyone is as much in touch with magic as every other person who's in touch with magic. With Magic by the point, you can have more fluid concepts, like the guy who took some cyberware before learning he was Awakened (and I need to revisit that thread now that I've had some time to think about it).

Risking crossing a line here: Magicians will get X number of spell points per point of his Magic attribute. Adepts will get a power point for each point of Magic. I don't think that's leaking anything, though I think I'll stop here for now to avoid temptation.

As for the original point: I think once Magic's set during chargen, then the only way to raise it is going to be Initiation. I'm going to push for the Karma-for-power-points rule to stay in place, since I see that the same way I see magicians learning spells. I also don't see geasa going anywhere.

They were sort of modelled with Magicians Way, with spell points per caster Magic point (sounds like a similar mechanism will be used). Though the extra magic went to Adept powers, not just off into an astral trash bin.

EDIT: Ya, I figured that Magic wouldn't get hard capped at 6 like other attributes [might]. That might make for a 4th or 5th level initiate being very scary if he uses Magic + Sorcery for spell tests, and the targets have to save using capped attributes only. It will be interesting to see how spell resistance/defense sifts out, if non-awakened can take Spell Defense or something like that.

Distinct possibility; I was at work and trying desperately to stay awake when I posted that, so the fact that it sounds cogent at all is something of a surprise to me.

SR3 Adepts don't have it by default. And yes, it is quite useful.

groggy: Partially awakened. Adepts, aspected mages, generally, the things with magic priority B (or equivalent).

Only one with magic priority A (awakened) that lacks astral perception is the Magician's Way Adept.. and that's a mechanical ruling because there's no good way to make a Magician with adept powers, only to make an Adept with spellcasting.

Magicians Way was the one I was specifically thinking of, mostly because it was much more limiting for them than other adepts. Not being able to be astral isn't nearly as big of deal when you have to move your meat body next to the target to attack, instead of ranged attacks or astral movement.

Aspected mages like Sorcerers and Conjurers do get Astral Perception. It is only Adepts (and Magician Adepts) that do not automatically get it. Nobody but full mages get Astral Projection automatically.

It's a commonly held belief that the FAQ ruling on this is totally screwed, and that Magician's Way Adepts Initiate normally. It is just that canon tries to explain it in a half-assed manner, which is very open for misinterpretation.

We're doing it this way.

If that's the case, you're talking a real thematic U-turn rather than just mechanical cleaning up and a thematic shift toward gritty lower-level street roots (which is actually pretty strong of a thematic shift, but people seemed to like to claim that SR was returning to its street roots in the middle of plots involving AIs with penchants for global domination, comets bringing about the (not quite) End Times, and great dragons engaged in a major power struggle, but I'm getting off-topic). I forget which book said it, but it's held true among all editions. "Magic is Power." As much as people liked to argue about it, a well-played spellcaster, with experience, would ultimately be the most powerful character compared to a group of mundanes, no matter how well-cybered. In Shadowrun, the introduction of astral abilities, minor conjuring, banishing, casting, and/or spell defense, or a point of well-chosen adept powers provide a real edge over people who are mundane.

Spell defense, especially. Unless spell defense is much easier, or spell power much weaker, taking a point of Magic and grabbing some Spell Defense could be just the thing to give you an edge against spellcasters. I'm aware that there are necessary skills, as well, but just being able to interact with the astral, or having a minor adept power, is certainly nothing to sneeze at when you're comparing yourself to someone who doesn't have that. Plus, there's one thing that bieng "just" Awakened grants, above and beyond mundanes... advancement potential. You also have to consider that, even with entry-level casting skill and a single point of Magic, if you're a full magician or sorceror, you can suddenly cast spells. You might not do it very well, but there's no measure to the edge that gives you over someone who simply and unilaterally cannot.

Ah, Crimson (may I call you Crimson?), fear not. To say I am on the "design team" for SR4 is, well, something of an overstatement. The whole of my contribution was attending a few meetings and offering a couple suggestions. I'm not writing a single word of SR4, and I've got practically nothing to do with it otherwise, so you can rest easy there. Shadowrun is "safe" from me.

It's not that you're a bad writer, Steve. I, unfortunately, have not had opportunity to check out your works for other systems. I understand that you are involved on a very high level in Mutants and Masterminds, among other things. However, without impuning your ideas as a writer, I think the directions you took Shadowrun, and the feel you imparted to it with your works, just wasn't where Shadowrun ought to have gone.

I'm a big fan of high magic, ancient conspiracies, and high adventure, but I think that they should share an equal slice of the pie with street-level situations, events where the outcome, while shaping the future, won't necessarily result in the salvation/damnation of the world, and where the main players are canny, cruel, ambitious, but mortal and metahuman, rather than being powerful spirits, ancient dragons, or immortal elves. I know that you didn't write only about that sort of thing, but it definitely got a lot of focus.

And the perfectionist in me really didn't like some of the rules you wrote (though not all, I won't make that claim). I was also very dismayed by the fact that, in certain adventures that it appears you wrote, rules inconsistencies in NPC statistics were abundant, with quite a few screwups made with rules that you yourself initially wrote. I don't know how much of the editorial process resulted in adding these things (magicians with the wrong Magic rating given their initiate grade, adepts with impossible choices for their centering metamagics, characters with vastly lower Essence than their cyberware would account for, lots and lots of characters armed with an assortment of weapons for which they have no skill), but they made a poor impression on me. I also disagreed with the (at the time) disregarded idea that otaku should be magical, though I am apparently in a minority with that belief.

I don't know how to say these things without coming off like I'm telling you to stop writing for RPGs and go live in a cave away from people, but I haven't heard throngs of people saying that you've wreaked havoc on the settings Green Ronin produces, so I'd have to say that it looks like whatever idealistic differences or lack of careful adherence to the rules were something that was specific to Shadowrun, and not really a sign of poor game development skills, but rather a sign of what can happen when someone writes for a system whose rules and setting are not really a good fit with the writer in question.

Agreed. I've tried to point this out in the past, but it seems it took some time for more than a couple people to even begin to recognize how immensely powerful it is. I hope to hell this has been recognized by the people developing SR4.