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Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Solstice)
This reeks of communist-derived "we are all exactly the same and we will rule it so that even the old lady mundane can succeed".

...

Good god. Go get laid, man. Seriously.
Arethusa
QUOTE (mintcar)
Arethusa: I had the same question. Adam said Intuition=Perception. indifferent.gif As I said in a post above, I figure itīs my understanding of the way the word functions in the english language that is lacking.

I've been speaking English for my whole life, and I think I do an alright job. This usage of intuition and logic does not make sense to me. I don't think this is a translation error.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
It might be SR in spirit, but the mechanics are going to take alot of getting used to.

I think this is very close to most people's objections. I feel (and I think some others here agree with me) that while a game is made up of mechanics and setting, the setting alone does not determine the spirit of the game. We could make Shadowrun d20 (not that we ever, EVER would) and give it the exact same setting, but it would be in no way in the spirit of Shadowrun. The dice pools, the balance of different archetypes, the balance of new characters vs. experienced ones; that would all change and would heavily change the spirit of the game.
I think many people are skeptical that the real "spirit" of the game will be preserved with this revision of the mechanics, as they seem to be less a revision and more a complete redesign from the ground up.
I am sure that these new rules will be quicker, more streamline, and easier to learn; I am extremely skeptical that the game will still "feel" like Shadowrun.

And BTW, my office mate and I cried with laughter reading the "What hasn't changed" section of the FAQ. "It's still a game about criminals" sheesh!
Arethusa
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE (Solstice @ Apr 12 2005, 11:46 AM)
This reeks of communist-derived "we are all exactly the same and we will rule it so that even the old lady mundane can succeed".

...

Good god. Go get laid, man. Seriously.

I think that may just be the worst thing ever said on these boards.
Fortune
QUOTE (Solstice)
Hence the word: "mundane". They are average, normal, not cool, not invincible and not deserving of any kind of "edge" over Awakened or cybered characters.

Exactly. People go under the knife and get implants for a reason. Awakened characters cost more in many ways for a reason. Because they are supossed to be a damn sight better than the normal, everyday, run of the mill dude without those advantages ... ie. mundanes.
Ol' Scratch
In all likelihood, they are better. Better in that their results are more consistant, and that they don't have to rely on the fickle hand of fate as much as the mundane does.

Think of it this way: "Edge" represents the tiny bit of magic everyone has in them since the Awakening. Those that go under the knife, or those who hone their magic in other ways, drastically have that tiny, natural, instinctual ability to manipulate the world around them wiped away. That little prayer to God, rubbing of a lucky rabbit's foot, pausing to try and stay focused, and so on and so forth can all be representations of that "magic" use mundanes use to call upon their "luck."
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Apr 12 2005, 11:54 AM)
I think that may just be the worst thing ever said on these boards.

At least I'm not the one spewing out profanities or communist propaganda. What's next? Calling the designers Nazi's and burning their likenesses in effigy because you can't understand a simple use of the English language or lost the ability to understand that this is a game?
Lucyfersam
Overall I like this batch of news. I really like the idea of magic being bought up like any other attribute. I don't think it will lead to a vast proliferation of low power mages, even if they don't put any other barrier to buying the magic attribute. If they make it so a low magic attribute is not as extremely useful as it is currently (things like even with Magic rating of 1 you can still cast increased initiative for full bonus, etc.), then it won't be worth the loss in other places for a specialist in something else to take it. It will make the burnout mage a playable concept, which is kind of neat, but probably won't be that common as they will most likely still be weaker in both magic and non-magic areas than others.

As for the attribute split, I think it works well. Intuition is the ability to make a quick conclusion from a large array of input information, and as such works fine as perception. It's true not all intuitive people are extremely perceptive, but in my experience that is mostly a matter of attention which is a very hard thing to define in game terms. The best way to simulate that would be to take a high Intuition attribute and the Oblivious flaw (if they still have edges and flaws, which I hope they do), which would be explained by the person being distracted by their thoughts and not paying much attention to the world around them.

When I first read about Edge it seemed a little strange to me, but it could work. I'll have faith in Patrick's opinion that it works well. Having it be an attribute gives more versatility at char gen, rather than karma pool where the only way to improve your luck was playing the character for a long time. I would be very upset if this attribute were directly negatively affected by magic or cyber, rather than it just being a case of you have fewer points to put into it if you spend them on magic and resources. Fortunately from the description this does not seem to be the case.
Kagetenshi
Doc: I suspect he was referring to the text you quoted.

~J
Fortune
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Think of it this way: "Edge" represents the tiny bit of magic everyone has in them since the Awakening. Those that go under the knife, or those who hone their magic in other ways, drastically have that tiny, natural, instinctual ability to manipulate the world around them wiped away. That little prayer to God, rubbing of a lucky rabbit's foot, pausing to try and stay focused, and so on and so forth can all be representations of that "magic" use mundanes use to call upon their "luck."

Except that it won't work that way in practice. You could have a character with no implants at the beginning of the game, who then because of that pumps the snot out of Edge. Then later 'in-game', that character gets himself all the implants he wants, but still has that pumped up Edge Attribute.
blakkie
QUOTE (mintcar)
Do you actually use the word intuition casually in english? As a filosofical term it is highly problematic and some argue thereīs no such thing, even. In swedish it has come to mean an almost supernatural ability to predict things that no one refers to eccept as a figure of speech.

All words changed their meaning in time. I guess intuition is a common word with a wide meaning in english. I did not know that. Maybe the split up isnīt such a bad thing then.

That swedish meaning you are talking about is pretty close to the common usage in North America. Here is a dictionary entry for it. A common phrase here is "woman's intuition", though I think that is sometimes used as an excuse by females for being illogical wink.gif.

Intuition, as I understand it, is more the deduction of the subconciousness as opposed to the logical deduction of the concious mind. Another opinion of the source, rather than the subconciousness, could also be more...magical (not that the concept of subconciousness isn't in a disputable issue). Either way the result is that the steps of the deduction are [at least initially] unknown to the concious mind. So it is the intellecutal counterpart to logical thought, where each step is explicit.

That is probably why they called the other side Logic. The problem is that intellect (and the original Intellegence attribute) also includes rote knowledge and the capacity for rote knowledge that doesn't really fall into either of these areas. Thus once again the single word label that is ment to encompass a lot of different things fails allow you to take it literally. But such are one word labels.
Ol' Scratch
Which, again, we have no idea whether or not Edge is affected by implants or magic. There simply has to be something there to make it a truly "mundane" attribute, otherwise the entire point of its purpose is completely lost.

If there isn't something there like that, then chances are I'll be rather perturbed, too (and just house rule something like "if it lowers Essence, it affects Edge" and "every point in Magic is -1 to Edge" into the game).
Bigity
This really, just keeps getting worse. I'm trying to keep an open mind, but it's not working. How about the next update contains some "good news"?

It would be a shame to have to go buy all the Star Wars D6 books again, since it looks like there is a decent (and growing) chance I won't be playing SR anymore.


EDIT: Also, I agree, why the hell should regular people have any bonus that is not available to awakeneded or razorboys? It should be more difficult to play a regular (if skilled) person in the Sixth World. There is no need to game balance it.
Fortune
According to DE in regards to the Edge Attribute ...

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
It's not connected to magic or 'ware. But it does cost to raise, like any other attribute, meaning if you invest in it seriously, you're taking those points from something else.

But I'm still of mixed feeling about Edge.
blakkie
QUOTE (Fortune @ Apr 12 2005, 12:03 PM)
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Apr 13 2005, 03:57 AM)
Think of it this way:  "Edge" represents the tiny bit of magic everyone has in them since the Awakening.  Those that go under the knife, or those who hone their magic in other ways, drastically have that tiny, natural, instinctual ability to manipulate the world around them wiped away.  That little prayer to God, rubbing of a lucky rabbit's foot, pausing to try and stay focused, and so on and so forth can all be representations of that "magic" use mundanes use to call upon their "luck."

Except that it won't work that way in practice. You could have a character with no implants at the beginning of the game, who then because of that pumps the snot out of Edge. Then later 'in-game', that character gets himself all the implants he wants, but still has that pumped up Edge Attribute.

But he has to buy all those implants instead of putting the cash into something else. Frankly I like the concept of an Edge. It's a great way to explain a lot of NPCs in the Shadowrun world other than to say they are secretly chromeheaded biowhores. Richard Villers? He has money. He has brains. But to make that money work (and to stay within normal racial attribute maxes) he has "It". "It" was called Karma Pool. Now "It" is called Edge.

To take this out of the SR world think of Lex Luther from Marvel world. A mundane getting by on pure Logic/Intuition/Charisma alone? Nah, the man had "It".
mintcar
blakkie: I said this in a previous post:
QUOTE
intuition is sub-concious logic. Itīs seing coherence without analysis.
You have confermed on several notes that my understanding of the word is perfectly fine. But Iīve calmed down about this. As you said; such are one word labels.
Capt. Dave
(Edited)
Bigity
And a Kryptonite ring...and, and a heavily modified cyber-hand. And so on.

Who says Villiers isn't packing the best cyberware and magical gear a megacorp can buy? Not many.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Apr 12 2005, 01:00 PM)
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Apr 12 2005, 11:54 AM)
I think that may just be the worst thing ever said on these boards.

At least I'm not the one spewing out profanities or communist propaganda. What's next? Calling the designers Nazi's and burning their likenesses in effigy because you can't understand a simple use of the English language or lost the ability to understand that this is a game?

Kage was right. I wasn't talking about what you said.
Fortune
QUOTE (blakkie @ Apr 13 2005, 04:11 AM)
But he has to buy all those implants instead of putting the cash into something else.

Right, but from what the Powers-that-be have said so far, it is supposed to be relatively difficult (or costly) to raise Attributes. It is usually much easier to acquire money to get implants in game than accumulate massive amounts of Karma that will probably be needed to raise Attributes to the higher levels.

Besides, none of this answers the question as to why mundanes would have any kind of 'Edge' in the first place.

Villiers' edge comes from ultra high skills and charisma. That's fine, but why should they apply when face with magic or bullets?
Ol' Scratch
If it makes you feel better, look at Edge (through metagaming eyes agani) as a Threat Rating.

And yeah, I saw Demonseed's comment earlier. I'm just in denial about it and trying my best to stay positive. But then, I love change... just as long as its good change. smile.gif
Garland
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Apr 12 2005, 12:03 PM)
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Apr 13 2005, 03:57 AM)
Think of it this way:  "Edge" represents the tiny bit of magic everyone has in them since the Awakening.  Those that go under the knife, or those who hone their magic in other ways, drastically have that tiny, natural, instinctual ability to manipulate the world around them wiped away.  That little prayer to God, rubbing of a lucky rabbit's foot, pausing to try and stay focused, and so on and so forth can all be representations of that "magic" use mundanes use to call upon their "luck."

Except that it won't work that way in practice. You could have a character with no implants at the beginning of the game, who then because of that pumps the snot out of Edge. Then later 'in-game', that character gets himself all the implants he wants, but still has that pumped up Edge Attribute.

But he has to buy all those implants instead of putting the cash into something else. Frankly I like the concept of an Edge. It's a great way to explain a lot of NPCs in the Shadowrun world other than to say they are secretly chromeheaded biowhores. Richard Villers? He has money. He has brains. But to make that money work (and to stay within normal racial attribute maxes) he has "It". "It" was called Karma Pool. Now "It" is called Edge.

To take this out of the SR world think of Lex Luther from Marvel world. A mundane getting by on pure Logic/Intuition/Charisma alone? Nah, the man had "It".

But "It" used to come with experience. I don't think Richard Villiers was hatching corporate takeovers right out of the womb. He learned to the crawl before he walked, I assume. Now you can start with "It." I think this is pretty counter to the way the game worked.

This whole thing is REALLY starting to sound like WW's Trinity game. The divided-up stats, the fixed TN, Edge (was called Willpower in Trinity) and so on.

My group actually played both SR3 and Trinity at the same time a while back. Whenever something really tough came up in SR for the characters, we'd joke, "Hey, this isn't White Wolf, FASA doesn't like you guys." Or vice-versa in Trinity, "Yeah, that's easy, this isn't FASA. White Wolf loves you guys."

I was really unhappy with how "flat" the Trinity system was. The equipment was pretty limited, simply because there weren't a whole lot of ways to differentiate one piece from another.
Vuron
It's not that Edge can't be taken in large amounts by awakened characters but rather that it's cost plus the cost of the magic attribute make it that you are going to be taking a major hit to your standard attributes. Considering those attributes are critical towards a ton of action situations while you almost certainly could design a character with high magic and edge you are going to be significantly below average in your other stats.

High edge I figure will be primarily the domain of experience characters and characters designed with the "I might not be strong or fast or skilled but dammit I'm lucky!" design type. In many ways this type of character would be good as a jack of all trade for beginning players (they might not be as good as specialized characters in any way but they are ultra flexible).

As for the design/feel of SR3 vs SR4 I believe that while the mechanics changes might be irritating to a good number of people but that overall they are extremely encouraging. Look at it from the standpoint of DnD 2ed had gotten extremely bloated and complex (not even getting into the skills&powers phase) and while there has been an insane amount of rules creep in d20 (partly due to being an Open System) initially it generated an incredible amount of sales for WotC. Yes it irritated a bunch of players and even cost WotC some gamers altogether but on the balance they gained more than they lost.

Now look at it from FanPro's perspective if they generate a small revision they might get some percentage of current SR gamers plus some people who might pick it up because it's a new edition. If they generate a whole new ruleset though they will keep a certain percentage of the current gamers plus lose a certain percentage of the fanatics (read average dumpshock user) while potentially gaining a new fanbase amoung people who abandoned the game in the past and completely new gamers who are interested in the mix of fantasy and cyberpunk. Yes it's a gamble and certainly has significant risks but it does have the potential of being a much bigger success than SR4 would've been otherwise.

Looking at it from a purely financial aspect it's absolutely the right thing to do. If they can generate a nice playable system that evokes the feel of the setting regardless of how well it integrates with previous versions of the game it's the right call.
mfb
i... wow. i'd love to post some thoughts about these, but it's going to take a day or two to process.

at the moment, i'm feeling shock. not good shock, not bad shock, just... whoah.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (mintcar @ Apr 12 2005, 12:14 PM)
blakkie: I said this in a previous post:
QUOTE
intuition is sub-concious logic. Itīs seing coherence without analysis.
You have confermed on several notes that my understanding of the word is perfectly fine. But Iīve calmed down about this. As you said; such are one word labels.

Err, you did read the definition he linked you to, right? Just in case you didn't, lemme cut-and-paste...

QUOTE
in·tu·i·tion
n.

  1.
        1. The act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes; immediate cognition. See Synonyms at reason.
        2. Knowledge gained by the use of this faculty; a perceptive insight.
  2. A sense of something not evident or deducible; an impression.

Emphasis in bolded italics are mine. Note how the word covers "perception" as well as intinctual hunches. Basically, Intuition = spur of the moment, while Logic = prolonged pondering and putting-the-pieces-together.
Vuron
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Apr 13 2005, 04:11 AM)
But he has to buy all those implants instead of putting the cash into something else.

Right, but from what the Powers-that-be have said so far, it is supposed to be relatively difficult (or costly) to raise Attributes. It is usually much easier to acquire money to get implants in game than accumulate massive amounts of Karma that will probably be needed to raise Attributes to the higher levels.

Besides, none of this answers the question as to why mundanes would have any kind of 'Edge' in the first place.

Villiers' edge comes from ultra high skills and charisma. That's fine, but why should they apply when face with magic or bullets?

So mundanes don't have access to luck within your conception of the SR universe? I think it's pretty obvious from DE's comments that edge is an amalgamation of luck, daring and inherent flexibility of mundane humans to thrive and prosper even when thier world has been turned upside down.

I figure it's roughly comparable to the racial traits humans have in d20 (versatility allows greater skill points each level) and the karma pool differences between metahumans and humans in SR3. Fundamentally it's about that little special something (besides weight of numbers) that allows the SR world to be about humanity (and metahumanity) rather than magical threats.
Kagetenshi
In my conception of the SR universe, everyone has access to luck. That's what the dice are for.

~J
Bigity
No rules creep in D20?? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLLLLOOOOLLLLL. Whatever.

If there is no rules creep in D20, there sure as hell wasn't any in 2nd edition.


FanPro is trying to make money, nothing wrong with that. However, it appears that they believe that there is more money to be made in dumbing down SR so that it can better attract new players, instead of holding onto some idea of loyalty to the vets.

Being right, however, doesn't mean it's the best move, or that everyone has to agree it's the right move.
blakkie
QUOTE (Bigity)
Who says Villiers isn't packing the best cyberware and magical gear a megacorp can buy? Not many.

That Villers own lots of bleeding edge gear including whatever magical. Sure. The best cyberware/bioware in his hired muscle. Sure. But he himself is cybered/bioed out the wazoo? Who is saying that he must be? Not me.
Kagetenshi
I would be very surprised if he weren't moderately cybered.

~J
Penta
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
This whole restructuring for SR4 reminds me a bit of InterPlay's "Fallout" computer game. IIRC it was based (loosely?) on an RPG although I never could remember which one, or even heard of it except in the "ReadMe" file.

GURPS.
Fortune
QUOTE (Vuron @ Apr 13 2005, 04:35 AM)
So mundanes don't have access to luck within your conception of the SR universe?

I never said that! My question is why should they have more access to luck than anyone else? As written, from what we know, the Edge Attribute is a sort of replacement for the Karma Pool. Why would that favor any one set of people (mundanes) of the same experience over any other (cybered and/or awakened)?
mintcar
Doctor Funkenstein:
QUOTE
Emphasis in bolded italics are mine. Note how the word covers "perception" as well as intinctual hunches. Basically, Intuition = spur of the moment, while Logic = prolonged pondering and putting-the-pieces-together.


It does not say that. Intuition is something hard to grasp, but one thing that is certain is that itīs something that happens in the sub-concious. It doesnīt cover perception as it is used in Shadowrun. If the perception test was made in order to get a hunch about something, yes. If it was made to notice something specific, no. But as I said, Iīm over it.

(Although it does still bother me a bit that every time some one notices something in SR4, they do so intuitively. I can think of some funny scenarios that may occur smile.gif)
Vuron
QUOTE (Bigity)
No rules creep in D20?? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLLLLOOOOLLLLL. Whatever.

If there is no rules creep in D20, there sure as hell wasn't any in 2nd edition.


FanPro is trying to make money, nothing wrong with that. However, it appears that they believe that there is more money to be made in dumbing down SR so that it can better attract new players, instead of holding onto some idea of loyalty to the vets.

Being right, however, doesn't mean it's the best move, or that everyone has to agree it's the right move.

If you read my statement "Look at it from the standpoint of DnD 2ed had gotten extremely bloated and complex (not even getting into the skills&powers phase) and while there has been an insane amount of rules creep in d20 (partly due to being an Open System) initially it generated an incredible amount of sales for WotC." I never said that there wasn't rules creep in D20 (or at least DnD) and in fact said there was an insane amount of it.

What I was saying is that a completely new system (whether d20 is enough of a change from 2e is a debatable subject) served WotC extremely well during 3E's launch. To copy that model is pretty decent business sense for FanPro. Of course what remains is what they do with the new system after publishing SR4. Do they pretty much leave the rules of the core rulebook intact with small crunchy editions or do they do what they did with SR3 in which each new sourcebook added a completely new ruleset.

Personally I'd like for there to be an extremely small number of crunchy sourcebooks after the main rulebook and the remainder of the books to be more fluff content.

However it doesn't change the fact that yes the system is changing and it's going to be a significant conceptual change from SR3. I just don't see why people are assuming that all change is automatically bad or inferior. In fact for the most part the rules changes (what limited amount I've seen) have been more along the line of generating excitement and enthuisasm for the game rather than destroying it.
mfb
okay. it's not one or two days yet, but i think i've processed everything i need to.

Intuition/Logic: this is already a part of SR3. look up the stats for any non-intelligent critter; under Int, you'll see something like 2/4. 2 is their Intelligence for the purposes of figuring things out--ie, Logic. 4 is their Intelligence for the purposes of perception and instinct-type stuff--ie, Intuition. the only change (and it's a big one) is that now everyone uses that split.

Edge: despite the fact that i'm normally hell on anyone who wants non-cybered mundanes to be equal to the Awakened/cybered, i have no problem with this concept--mainly because the Awakened/cybered have, apparently, just as much access to it as norms do. they just have a harder time developing it, because they're too focused on their implants or magic. does this necessarily make any real-world sense? well, when i get my datajack implanted and develop my Killing Hands, i'll let you know.
Vuron
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Vuron @ Apr 13 2005, 04:35 AM)
So mundanes don't have access to luck within your conception of the SR universe?

I never said that! My question is why should they have more access to luck than anyone else? As written, from what we know, the Edge Attribute is a sort of replacement for the Karma Pool. Why would that favor any one set of people (mundanes) of the same experience over any other (cybered and/or awakened)?

Well it really depends on what DE means by mundane. In general I assume that for DE's definition that mundane is anything non awakened (which includes massively cybered razorboys). If this is the correct definition it pretty much revolves around the fact that in order to have decent attributes an awakened character will have to spend a good percentage of his build points on magic rather than edge (or quickness etc)

However it really gets down to whether everything is purchased out of the same building point pool. If everything is purchased out of one pool it might be something like having high enough initial resources to be extremely cybered means you don't have enough build points to spend on maxing out all your skills and attributes. If it's all out of one big pool then yes almost certainly noncybered mundanes might have enough build points to throw a bunch of points towards having a high amount of edge.
RunnerPaul
One thing I noticed wasn't mentioned in the Attributes Answer, was Essence. In fact, I don't think there's been any mention of it in any of the nuggets of info that have been doled out so far.

Worst Case Scenario: Edge is the new Essence?
blakkie
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I would be very surprised if he weren't moderately cybered.

~J

Moderately in which way? As in maybe a camoflaged jack for "reading" and perhaps a few memory chips, plus a little vanity bioware? By the time 2070 rolls aroung he'd be due for a little Leonization perhaps. All the normal trappings of 6th world elite. *shrug*

But are there any canon suggestions beyond that? A question for the canon wizards that I think I'll cross post in the root forum....
mfb
edge can't be the new essence. as DE stated, edge isn't affected by magic or cyber.

unless, of course, they've gotten rid of essence entirely.
Catsnightmare
QUOTE (Eldritch)
And if so, what would one point of magic get you? Anything? Nothing? Everything?

I suppose they could stagger it;

You need at least 2 magic points to be able to percieve and cast spells; 4 to conjure, and 6 to project.

This whole thing = bad idea.

The whole of SR4 = Bad Idea
Demonseed Elite
Just a couple things to bring up:

There's some people on this thread saying "mundanes shouldn't be on par with the cybered or the magical." Okay, well, first assumption being made there is that Edge allows them to perfectly bridge the power gap there. I wouldn't assume that to be true. Remember, Edge is essentially "luck". It's not that dependable. It could work for you or it might not. Any mundane who wants to survive is going to have to rely on a lot more than Edge.

What Edge does do is present another avenue for investment and development that opens for mundane characters, besides just skills and attributes. Maybe you want to play an old-school SR1-esque Rocker. Well, it might not be in your character's image for you to have a Rocker who loads up on tons of Firearms skills like some sort of super-spy, or has maxxed out Attributes like a musclebound Einstein. But Edge is something else you can invest in that helps that character type in the game. It contributes, gives him a little something. It doesn't put him on the same level as a cybered up street sam on its own.

Second thing to keep in mind is the "you're damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Some people really just don't think that mundanes belong in the game, that they should not stand any chance against the cybered and magical. On the other end of the spectrum are people who complain that their Face characters are useless next to other character types, or that there's just no rational way they could play a Rocker, Ganger, film noirish Detective-type, or any other possibly interesting ideas that don't revolve around magic or cyberware.

The idea is to create a simple mechanic that makes those types of characters possible in the game without removing the benefits that cyberware or magical talent bring. Is it perfect? I'm not sure yet. But don't think that there's no motivation to get cyberware anymore because there is Edge. That's really not the case. Edge is a gamble and not always available, cyberware is a fixed bonus that is always there.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (blakkie)
Moderately in which way? As in maybe a camoflaged jack for "reading" and perhaps a few memory chips, plus a little vanity bioware? By the time 2070 rolls aroung he'd be due for a little Leonization perhaps. All the normal trappings of 6th world elite. *shrug*

Datajack, headware memory, math SPU, encephalon, mnemonic enhancement, cerebral booster, maybe a knowsoft link.

~J
hermit
Question: Will the impact/essence cost of cyberware be subject to strong modification as well? For example, if under the new initiative 4.0 system, Wired would be worth a lot less, would that mean wired gets toned down in essence cost, or would it still cost 2 to 5 essence, only for a much smaller bonus?

And if there're so many drastic changes, is there any realistic chance a character can be ported somewhat on the same power level and with comparable attribute/implant/magic boni than in SR3?
Vuron
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
Just a couple things to bring up:

There's some people on this thread saying "mundanes shouldn't be on par with the cybered or the magical." Okay, well, first assumption being made there is that Edge allows them to perfectly bridge the power gap there. I wouldn't assume that to be true. Remember, Edge is essentially "luck". It's not that dependable. It could work for you or it might not. Any mundane who wants to survive is going to have to rely on a lot more than Edge.

What Edge does do is present another avenue for investment and development that opens for mundane characters, besides just skills and attributes. Maybe you want to play an old-school SR1-esque Rocker. Well, it might not be in your character's image for you to have a Rocker who loads up on tons of Firearms skills like some sort of super-spy, or has maxxed out Attributes like a musclebound Einstein. But Edge is something else you can invest in that helps that character type in the game. It contributes, gives him a little something. It doesn't put him on the same level as a cybered up street sam on its own.

Second thing to keep in mind is the "you're damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Some people really just don't think that mundanes belong in the game, that they should not stand any chance against the cybered and magical. On the other end of the spectrum are people who complain that their Face characters are useless next to other character types, or that there's just no rational way they could play a Rocker, Ganger, film noirish Detective-type, or any other possibly interesting ideas that don't revolve around magic or cyberware.

The idea is to create a simple mechanic that makes those types of characters possible in the game without removing the benefits that cyberware or magical talent bring. Is it perfect? I'm not sure yet. But don't think that there's no motivation to get cyberware anymore because there is Edge. That's really not the case. Edge is a gamble and not always available, cyberware is a fixed bonus that is always there.

I tend to agree that with each edition an exceedingly large number of 1e archetypes have basically been abandoned. Yes the face or the noir detective still occasionally shows up and I understand that rockerboys smell of Cyberpunk 2020 but when was the last time you saw a PC play the human mundane tribesman or the various other nonawakened noncybered character types that are common within the fiction but that have very little gameplay?

A luck based mechanic that allows people to be funky effective without being the most skilled, the most cybered or the most magicked up is only a good change in my opinion.

Fortune
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
Just a couple things to bring up ...

That helps a bit, but I still don't think it's totally logical that the non-augmented can have access to some type of advantage (outside of social benefits) that isn't a viable option to those that are augmented in some manner.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
Question: Will the impact/essence cost of cyberware be subject to strong modification as well? For example, if under the new initiative 4.0 system, Wired would be worth a lot less, would that mean wired gets toned down in essence cost, or would it still cost 2 to 5 essence, only for a much smaller bonus?


I don't know. I have not seen a cyberware list with essence and nuyen costs. And keep in mind that even if I had, I wouldn't be able to say much about it. NDA and all. I comment about Edge because Rob has already posted that it exists and how it basically works, I'm just trying to give you guys a bit of context.

QUOTE
And if there're so many drastic changes, is there any realistic chance a character can be ported somewhat on the same power level and with comparable attribute/implant/magic boni than in SR3?


Probably. Keep in mind that you wouldn't be porting a starting character over, so things like how many points a starting character has to spend wouldn't really matter for converting an existing character over.

QUOTE
That helps a bit, but I still don't think it's totally logical that the non-augmented can have access to some type of advantage (outside of social benefits) that isn't a viable option to those that are augmented in some manner.


It still is an option though. A magical or cybered character can (and likely will, to some extent) have Edge.
Bigity
QUOTE (Vuron)
QUOTE (Bigity @ Apr 12 2005, 01:39 PM)
No rules creep in D20?? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLLLLOOOOLLLLL.  Whatever.

If there is no rules creep in D20, there sure as hell wasn't any in 2nd edition.


FanPro is trying to make money, nothing wrong with that.  However, it appears that they believe that there is more money to be made in dumbing down SR so that it can better attract new players, instead of holding onto some idea of loyalty to the vets.

Being right, however, doesn't mean it's the best move, or that everyone has to agree it's the right move.

If you read my statement "Look at it from the standpoint of DnD 2ed had gotten extremely bloated and complex (not even getting into the skills&powers phase) and while there has been an insane amount of rules creep in d20 (partly due to being an Open System) initially it generated an incredible amount of sales for WotC." I never said that there wasn't rules creep in D20 (or at least DnD) and in fact said there was an insane amount of it.

What I was saying is that a completely new system (whether d20 is enough of a change from 2e is a debatable subject) served WotC extremely well during 3E's launch. To copy that model is pretty decent business sense for FanPro. Of course what remains is what they do with the new system after publishing SR4. Do they pretty much leave the rules of the core rulebook intact with small crunchy editions or do they do what they did with SR3 in which each new sourcebook added a completely new ruleset.

Personally I'd like for there to be an extremely small number of crunchy sourcebooks after the main rulebook and the remainder of the books to be more fluff content.

However it doesn't change the fact that yes the system is changing and it's going to be a significant conceptual change from SR3. I just don't see why people are assuming that all change is automatically bad or inferior. In fact for the most part the rules changes (what limited amount I've seen) have been more along the line of generating excitement and enthuisasm for the game rather than destroying it.

Yup, you are correct, I misread your post. My apologies.

And the point I really wanted to make, is still valid.
hermit
Demonseed: Nevermind then. I'll pose a "scale of 1 to 10" question lateron, I guess. Seems Scale of 1 to 10 doesn't violate NDAs.
hobgoblin
hmm, edge. starting to sound a bit like unisystem (buffy) drama points.
ie, you have to save it for those times you need it. but when used can give you the upper hand nyahnyah.gif

still, it can make for a more cinematic play. and i know some have allready complained that shadowrun is to cinematic for its own good...
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
Demonseed: Nevermind then. I'll pose a "scale of 1 to 10" question lateron, I guess. Seems Scale of 1 to 10 doesn't violate NDAs.


Hahah, I wouldn't assume that either!

Personally, I wish the shadowrunrpg.com FAQ went into a lot more context about the changes. I'd rather Rob made a posting that said "Here is Edge, here is how it works, and here is why we are doing it." That's actually what I expected from the blog idea. But I also know that Rob is pretty hellishly busy.
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