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Pthgar
The HV weapons are far more realistic if you suppose dense power sources and electronic firing. I would like to se them relplace the miniguns completely.
Botch
QUOTE (Solstice)
Strength = Power&Speed
Quickness = Agility&Reaction
Body = Endurance&Tolerance
Intelligence = Solving&Learning
Willpower = Focus&Drive
Charisma = Personality&Appearance
[/QUOTE]

Nice thoughts but I believe they are wanting to simplify, not double the amount of attributes. Who knows though, it doesn't seem very simplified to me so far....illogical maybe.

I believe it was streamline not simplify. SR has a horribly simplistic attribute system and badly needs sorting out. The stats barely function as descriptors of a "realistic" fantasyscape.

Vuron
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I disagree. Sixteen rounds of suppressive fire a pass can make sure that when the time comes to reload, no one's going to be bothering you while you do.

Doubly so if there's someone else who can open up during the periods you don't have covered.

I 'm speaking more from a "realism" standpoint rather than a game balance standpoint. A gun manufacturer simple shouldn't design weapons with cyclical fire rates much above say 1000 RPM.

Note: While the G11 caseless rifle had a 2000 RPM cyclic rate but it was firing extremely small projectiles at with a salvo strategy that seems to have been effective abandoned in the industry.

Unless you have much smaller ammunition it's not really possible for a human being (core sales target) to carry enough ammo to make a HVAR a reasonable battle platform. In combat situations full auto pretty much means that people burn through clips at insane rates and someone has to carry that ammo.

Solstice
QUOTE (Vuron)
If you want to get really metaphysical you could even have some martial arts styles linked to attributes like intuition to represent the wizened old martial arts master types who can still beat the everloving shit out of big hulking brutes.

This is an uncomfortable reminder of the AD&D link between monks and wisdom. I don't think we need that sort of thing in SR4. I can see a better link between physical attributes and martial arts though.
Vuron
QUOTE (Solstice)
QUOTE (Vuron @ Apr 14 2005, 11:25 AM)
If you want to get really metaphysical you could even have some martial arts styles linked to attributes like intuition to represent the wizened old martial arts master types who can still beat the everloving shit out of big hulking brutes.

This is an uncomfortable reminder of the AD&D link between monks and wisdom. I don't think we need that sort of thing in SR4. I can see a better link between physical attributes and martial arts though.

I understand it's going to give people heebie jeebies but I can see the option for linking various martial art styles to various attributes being presented some day for the purpose of doing that style archetype. After all if you watch HK martial arts movies or Kill Bill 2 it's pretty damned common across multiple genres. Considering that adepts especially are mystical warriors in many people's mind having options to that effect might be interesting.
Austere Emancipator
Usefulness of man-portable miniguns or lack thereof.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I disagree. Sixteen rounds of suppressive fire a pass can make sure that when the time comes to reload, no one's going to be bothering you while you do.

The point being that, IRL, a minigun should be pumping out more like 100 rounds per pass @ 3 passes/CT. Otherwise you might as well get any old LMG with a cyclic RoF of 1200, or 60 rounds per CT.
Botch
QUOTE (Vuron)
QUOTE (Pthgar @ Apr 14 2005, 11:16 AM)
Melee skills could be linked to Quickness for skill tests and Strength for Damage Codes.  We used to house rule it like that but switched back out of forgetfullness and laziness.

Well in all honest I was intentionally leaving out martial arts ans finesse style melee weapons out of the picture.

Brawling and total ass beating melee styles like swinging a baseball bat should stay linked to strength but I think a good case should be made for several styles of melee like kung fu, fencing to be quickness linked.

If you want to get really metaphysical you could even have some martial arts styles linked to attributes like intuition to represent the wizened old martial arts master types who can still beat the everloving shit out of big hulking brutes.

No, almost all melee is speed and co-ordination. Its to do with physics, force/duration. When 2 people have the same speed the stronger wins, with even a small difference in speed and co-ordination, the stronger fighter has to be a lot stronger than they are relatively slower.

Strength for damgae and ability to effectively wield yes, ability to strike opponent, no.

If I was to narrow down the attributes from 13 (I forgot to tack on Edge as isn't really an attribute), on first reflection it would be 3 physical, 3 mental and 3 miscelleanous

Power
Agility
Endurance

Reaction
Luck
Willpower - All saves (eg. drain, stun and physical damage checks)

Intellect
Intuition
Wit
mfb
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
And there's the problem, we're defining our terms differently. I take professional to go beyond just doing something for money to include an attitude, a detachment from the work. Moreover, I see "street level" as applying to gangers, lower-tier fixers, petty criminals, etc., not those who may do business on the streets.

i still don't see why they're mutually exclusive. a guy making his way up from his ganger roots will be smack-dab in the middle of street level, whether he's got a professional attitude or not. you don't just decide "i'm professional", and suddenly start going to meets at the Needle. and even if you do, you've still got to go back to the street to get your gear and info, at which point you're at street level again.
Dawnshadow
Professional level doesn't negate going into the streets for things, but Street Level, at least in my opinion, negates going into the professional circles. Street level implies certain things, professional implies others. A street level game.. well, I picture mafia goons, the knee-breakers etc, but not the hit men, not the experts. Professional level, I picture the bodyguards, the hit men, the upper echelon.

For instance, mafia opponents, some run encounter:
Street Level, your tough opponent, the one that's about par with one of the characters, is the legbreaker.. he's got a bunch of punks with him as well, that know how to punch or knife, but aren't very good at it, and it's all they've got.

Final opponent in a story arc? The minor boss.

Professional Level, you've got a minor boss, his pair of bodyguards, and a bunch of legbreakers to round things out as a run encounter.

Final opponent in the arc? A major boss. Someone who's been given territory but still answers to the real boss.
Vuron
QUOTE (Botch)
QUOTE (Vuron @ Apr 14 2005, 05:25 PM)
QUOTE (Pthgar @ Apr 14 2005, 11:16 AM)
Melee skills could be linked to Quickness for skill tests and Strength for Damage Codes.  We used to house rule it like that but switched back out of forgetfullness and laziness.

Well in all honest I was intentionally leaving out martial arts ans finesse style melee weapons out of the picture.

Brawling and total ass beating melee styles like swinging a baseball bat should stay linked to strength but I think a good case should be made for several styles of melee like kung fu, fencing to be quickness linked.

If you want to get really metaphysical you could even have some martial arts styles linked to attributes like intuition to represent the wizened old martial arts master types who can still beat the everloving shit out of big hulking brutes.

No, almost all melee is speed and co-ordination. Its to do with physics, force/duration. When 2 people have the same speed the stronger wins, with even a small difference in speed and co-ordination, the stronger fighter has to be a lot stronger than they are relatively slower.

Strength for damgae and ability to effectively wield yes, ability to strike opponent, no.


There you go falling to deeply in the trap of real world logic wink.gif

But I wasn't intending the martial arts + intuition to be anything more than a possiblity for simulating funky archetypes for one and meeting my main argument that martial arts shouldn't always be linked to 1 specific attribute.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Usefulness of man-portable miniguns or lack thereof.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I disagree. Sixteen rounds of suppressive fire a pass can make sure that when the time comes to reload, no one's going to be bothering you while you do.

The point being that, IRL, a minigun should be pumping out more like 100 rounds per pass @ 3 passes/CT. Otherwise you might as well get any old LMG with a cyclic RoF of 1200, or 60 rounds per CT.

Oh, yeah, sure, go and bring sense into it, why don't you.

wink.gif

~J
Vuron
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Usefulness of man-portable miniguns or lack thereof.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I disagree. Sixteen rounds of suppressive fire a pass can make sure that when the time comes to reload, no one's going to be bothering you while you do.

The point being that, IRL, a minigun should be pumping out more like 100 rounds per pass @ 3 passes/CT. Otherwise you might as well get any old LMG with a cyclic RoF of 1200, or 60 rounds per CT.

I tend to like "kewl" to a certain degree in any game but if the core system is pretty much trying to simulate reality (well at least a reality with trolls and magic etc) I do want my weapons to somewhat resemble thier real world counterparts. So while miniguns and Exalted style 7 ft Grand Daiklaives might fit some games I tend to get a bit twitchy when they show up in SR biggrin.gif

So yeah I tend to think miniguns and to a lesser extent HVARs as not in keeping with the realism i'd like to have in regard to SR weaponry wink.gif
Moon-Hawk
Just remember, there are a lot of things that are flat-out not man-portable that still belong in SR. I mean, there's man-portable, and then there's troll-portable.
Grinder
And cell phones weigthing as much as a brick. biggrin.gif
Vuron
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Just remember, there are a lot of things that are flat-out not man-portable that still belong in SR. I mean, there's man-portable, and then there's troll-portable.

Even troll powered you still have to deal with the realities of the physics behind the gun.

The following is swiped from http://www.cerebralsynergy.com/content.php?article.12

Hand-Held Miniguns In Reality
However, the American army has experimented with the idea of ‘hand-held’ miniguns. Legend has it that some of America`s Special Forces saw Predator and realized that a hand-held Minigun would be a great asset for clearing out landing zones quickly. Having ample access to the equipment needed, they started experimenting on the General Electric XM214 minigun. Nevertheless they ran into the same problems: Firstly was the weight. The Minigun weighed in at around 15 Kilos, which was heavy, but carryable. A backpack with a thousand rounds of ammunition and a linkless belt to the Minigun weighed in at another 18 Kilos. Backpacks with two thousand rounds weighed in at 30 kilos, and were totally unrealistic in size. The 2 batteries needed to drive the minigun weighed 15 kilos each, so it was obvious that only one battery could be carried in addition to all the other equipment the soldier is to carry. Thus, the weapon could never be used at its full rate of fire.

The second problem was that even at only 1000 RPM rate of fire, the gun produces about 11 kilos of continuous recoil. And this amount of force increases geometrically in proportion to the rate of fire. Firing a large burst would result in the gunner being spun around by his own weapon, and spraying everything around him indiscriminately with bullets, including his own comrades.
After these experiments, it was realized that the gun would simply be too heavy and cumbersome to be ever used in real-life combat, and the concept was abandoned.

So it comes to this: In movies and in computer games, the hero is able to carry a minigun as a weapon but in reality no army in the world today has a hand-held Minigun in its arsenal.


So perhaps given really high double digit strength and something like a linear frame (borrowed from CP2020) you might be able to justify some character actually carrying a weapon like a minigun even then you need a drone to carry all the ammo needed to give a hulking body builder of a troll the capability of carrying enough ammo for anything more than a couple of combat rounds.

Now vehicle mounted Miniguns I have no problem with and even big land based drones but man portable or in rotorbased drones no fragging way wink.gif
Arethusa
Man portable miniguns— full size ones, at that, like the 214 and 134— are definitely possible with the advent of cybernetics. GitS: SAC has a good example of this in one of the last episodes of the first season. It's not really a viable field weapon, but for limited use, it's definitely possible.
Austere Emancipator
Limit an AR-caliber minigun to ~3000rpm, and the recoil will not be unmanageable, considering that the weight of the weapon itself and the mount it'll be carried on. The weight and size of the batteries will drop immensely by SR times -- it is not unreasonable to assume you could get those to well under 1kg. The weight of the weapon itself could be dropped to ~10kg through the use of advanced materials and by making the weapon design lighter over-all (for example, using only 4 barrels) now that it's no longer used for continuous fire at up to 10000rpm. The ammunition itself might become 25-50% lighter.

At that point, you're looking at 10-12kg + mount (5kg? less than 10kg at least) + ammunition (~6-8kg per 1000 rounds). Obviously that's still horribly heavy and bulky and unwieldy. And, like I said in the thread I linked, at this point you might as well get a lighter, cheaper, simpler, more maneuverable conventional LMG that can fire at ~1500rpm for short periods of time. But it would certainly not be impossible, just pointless.

A shadowrun troll, especially one as heavy as a 2.8-meter-tall, muscular humanoid should be instead of the canon 225kg weaklings, should easily be capable of lugging around and firing on the move an XM214 or an M134. Of course, it could probably also wield an M2HB or a Mk 19.
Vuron
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Man portable miniguns— full size ones, at that, like the 214 and 134— are definitely possible with the advent of cybernetics. GitS: SAC has a good example of this in one of the last episodes of the first season. It's not really a viable field weapon, but for limited use, it's definitely possible.

I understand them showing up in GitS as I assume that the Majors fullbody cybernetics translate into really really crazy levels of strength.

That being said anyone that can pull apart a light battle tank is almost certainly operating at a much higher level of strength than super arnold the troll with really high end cyberlimbs.

Now if Shadowrun had stuff like Linear Frames then I would say go for it (although you are still dealing with the amazing bulk something like 2000 rounds of ammo would take up) but even with Mid 20s in terms of strength I just don't think you begin to touch what GitS fullbody conversions capabilities are.
Kagetenshi
It was clearly demonstrated that she could not, in fact, pull apart a light battle tank. Very clearly demonstrated, actually.

~J
Vuron
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
It was clearly demonstrated that she could not, in fact, pull apart a light battle tank. Very clearly demonstrated, actually.

~J

Okay her GitS form couldn't do it (at least not reliably or why would she even try?) but her new GitS2 form? I'm pretty certain that she recieved significant upgrades between the editions.

However it's meant primarily as an illustrative point the level of strength displayed in GitS seems way higher than what SR trolls are capable of.
Solstice
That article has his name wrong. He played "Blaine" not "tex" am I right?
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Vuron)
However it's meant primarily as an illustrative point the level of strength displayed in GitS seems way higher than what SR trolls are capable of.

That doesn't really matter, because you don't need to be capable of pulling apart an armored fighting vehicle with your bare hands in order to carry a weapon weighing ~25-40kg (mount and ammunition included) or to handle the recoil of 2-6 SAWs or M240s.

Solstice: Yeah. IMDB says "Blain".
blakkie
Ok, so I come back here mid-thread and see "GitS". Head off to Google "GitS movie" and .... Frenching the Bully? I don't think so. smile.gif

EDIT: BTW, yes I figured out Ghost in the Shell. Duh.
littlesean
QUOTE (Botch)
If I was to narrow down the attributes from 13 (I forgot to tack on Edge as isn't really an attribute), on first reflection it would be 3 physical, 3 mental and 3 miscelleanous

Power
Agility
Endurance

Reaction
Luck
Willpower - All saves (eg. drain, stun and physical damage checks)

Intellect
Intuition
Wit

Botch,
I like your breakdown, but I see a problem with it.

No one in their right mind would start a character without maxing Willpower. It becomes by far the most critical single attribute. Some would say this isn't a problem, but I see it as such. Costing the increase for different attributes differently would add complexity where it is not needed.

I like their breakdown and the explanations they have given for them, and am anxious to see further revelations on the new mechanics.
Arethusa
Vuron, in the example I cited, Batou's the one using it, and he only does so for a couple seconds (presumably it runs out rather quickly) before throwing it away. Doesn't matter much. It's obviously not a very useful or practical field weapon, but a feasible weapon in specific circumstances when you bring augmentation into the picture.
Hasagwan
QUOTE (Dawnshadow)
Professional level doesn't negate going into the streets for things, but Street Level, at least in my opinion, negates going into the professional circles. Street level implies certain things, professional implies others. A street level game.. well, I picture mafia goons, the knee-breakers etc, but not the hit men, not the experts. Professional level, I picture the bodyguards, the hit men, the upper echelon.

For instance, mafia opponents, some run encounter:
Street Level, your tough opponent, the one that's about par with one of the characters, is the legbreaker.. he's got a bunch of punks with him as well, that know how to punch or knife, but aren't very good at it, and it's all they've got.

Final opponent in a story arc? The minor boss.

Professional Level, you've got a minor boss, his pair of bodyguards, and a bunch of legbreakers to round things out as a run encounter.

Final opponent in the arc? A major boss. Someone who's been given territory but still answers to the real boss.

Maybe it's just me but this seem to be more role playing problem than skill level. If the players role play right, they can get the right contacts (or maybe they have a good story for a contact from the bat) that lets them go to the more professional areas and rub shoulders with the pros even if their skills aren't major league level. On the other hand, I wouldn't expect a character who has all street level contacts to get invited to the ritzy places even if he has the major league skills.

Let me give two examples to show the difference through role playing.

Character A is highly skilled at what he does and is a veteran runner in the shadows of the city. However he's also known for his violent results to his missions and loves to cause collateral damage. Even though he's highly skilled and good at getting the job done, he would never be invited to the nicer parts of town. All of his meets would be in the warehouses and back alleys of the city.

Character B is still a bit wet behind the ear who has some runs under his belt but not enough to have all the skills needed of a veteran runner. However he does his jobs with skill and finess and always to the letter and shows promise. After a while one of his Johnsons sees his skills as a valuable asset and decides to pay special attention to him because his value as he gains the right skills will increase greatly. As a result B gets invites to the nicer places where his etiquette and social skills are tested as well as his street skills on the run.

Basically, I think the difference between a street grunt and a pro is attitude more than attributes and skills. If you have the right attitude and can do the job as specified, you're going to be treated like the professional you are. But even if you have skill and ability oozing from you, you aren't going to get to go meet at the Needle if you're more likely to cause a scene or come in smelling like last months garbage.

Also what's with this boss thing? You actually don't need a boss to end a story arc. While it's nice to kill off one of your enemies, there are other ways such as ruining his company by digging up the evidence that it's sterilizing metas on the side or by causing a massive chemical spill that gets the EPA and every enviromental group up in arms. Or really wacky idea is to marry the enemy's daughter (you know the one he spoils to death and can't say no to) and because of that he can't do anything directly against you, his new son-in-law, without her going into a temper tantrum or end contact something he couldn't bare. rotfl.gif The only thing I think is mandatory for a story arc end is that it's intense and that the characters feel like they have accomplished something. It really does depend on how you write the stories.
Dawnshadow
Should have specified.. the opponent is, and he's backed up like that if you choose to fight it out. It could end multiple different ways, but the idea of who the opponent is, that stays the same.

Yes, as long as it ends and people are satisfied, then it's good. But, you do have the have the opposition at a level appropriate to the level of the game -- which was my main point.

And it could work out the way you suggested with roleplay -- but I think the goal most people have is to get off of the streets, which means they're trying to get into the professional level.
mfb
off-topic: her GitS2 "form" is a formless, bodiless AI that can download portions of itself into cyberbrains and robots. the body she inhabited for a short period in GitS2 could not have pulled apart a light tank any more than her custom-made combat body from GitS could have. she tried the same thing in GitS:SAC, with about the same rate of success.
Hasagwan
QUOTE (Dawnshadow)
Should have specified.. the opponent is, and he's backed up like that if you choose to fight it out. It could end multiple different ways, but the idea of who the opponent is, that stays the same.

Yes, as long as it ends and people are satisfied, then it's good. But, you do have the have the opposition at a level appropriate to the level of the game -- which was my main point.

And it could work out the way you suggested with roleplay -- but I think the goal most people have is to get off of the streets, which means they're trying to get into the professional level.

I would still have to disagree with you on who the opposition is. Granted if you do a straight up fight, taking down a major figure in a AAA corp in the city is going to be a lot tougher than taking down a gang boss. A group of low level runners are probably going to become worm food if they try to take on the the director head on.

However, a smart group of runners would know this and choose not to do the stand up fight. They can hit their enemy's outlying holdings, gathering information and causing a loss of profits to the bottom line. They can gather intel on the wrongs his company is doing and either pass it on to another corp to exploit or to the media/police/activist groups to cause an uproar and an embarassement. They for alliances with his enemies to increase pressure on him or to gain more resources to use against him. You play on his weakness and make it so that he can't cope, then you fade back to the shadows. Over time they'll either bring him low enough to where they can take him on or gain enough skill to take him down. I won't be quick and easy but it might make for another story arc or two.

In either scenario (the stand up fight or the covert runs) the main enemy is the VP of the local branch of a AAA, but in the stand up fight you're going right at the toughest guards he has while in the other your going against the normal guards and what ever he can through against you when he can get a lock on you (so probably hotter than the guards but not as hot as his personal guards, calling out a Firewatch Team on a bunch of piddly runners would be a sign of weakness and or desperation if it was found out that they have a personal grudge against him and he couldn't handle it descretly). Also he may take a long time for him to realize that he is being targeted through these runs and is slow to respond if they do the runs very quiet like.

So I think the opposition is what you make of them and if your players are up to the challange of a David and Goliath odds gorilla war.

As for the get into the professional level, if by that you mean gain enough skills and runs to be a veteran runner with all the perks and pay that goes with it, yeah I would mostly agree with you. However I don't think that is the professional level as even the newest runners can be professionals on their job and some runners who are vets, because of their actions (we all know those groups or players who just enjoy extremely high body counts).

Also I would hope that the runners have other goals besides earning a job specific goal. After all we all have a lot of goals that we want to fullfill in life, why shouldn't the runners too? wink.gif
Dexy
QUOTE (Dawnshadow)
Professional level doesn't negate going into the streets for things, but Street Level, at least in my opinion, negates going into the professional circles.

I don't see that. I mean, Saddam Hussein started off as, essentially, a street thug in Takrit, went on to become dictator of the world's second largest oil producer and stayed in power until the world's only superpower invaded, and he still managed to stay out of their hands for months.

Also, all those mob bosses started somewhere, and you can bet that most of them were just petty crooks until they managed to claw their way to the top. Why should your street-level Shadowrun character have less potential than Al Capone?
Dawnshadow
Dexy:

If you make a concerted effort to get off of the street, and become something/someone far beyond it, you can succeed. But you don't see 'Willy the Snake', a low level snitch and errand boy (aka, mafia low grade fixer), running around with the professional runner teams. You don't see the troll ganger whose main goal is get drunk and whose idea of party is a gang brawl, with no social skills but initimidation, dealing with a high end fixer.

The Pros might go onto the streets for stuff.. the Street doesn't go into the pro circles for stuff. The Street runner may become a professional -- but not necessairily
Wireknight
The problem I have with street level is that I don't forsee my characters realistically obtaining lofty aspirations, starting from their most basic roots, in less than ten or fifteen years. Most campaigns do not last nearly that long, and characters moving from one campaign to the next is pretty rare. If you expect to start as a street-level thug, and play your way to leader of a major syndicate before the character dies, is retired, or is removed from play via a shift to a new campaign with new focus, you're either playing with a very focused, in-depth, and long-running group... or you're going to advance, organizationally (skill/attribute/ability levels nonwithstanding) at a highly unrealistic pace.

That's why I tend to play characters like the ones depicted in Heat. They're in the middle of their careers, with a solid background and abilities that reflect it, and the opportunity to make it to some semblance of a life goal within the lifespan of the average campaign. Some, mostly the ones who live for adventure (or got caught up and can only slow down/bow out in very small increments to avoid making enemies, failing obligations, or getting killed), will continue beyond this point and become still-played legends. Most, when play ends and I can't find another campaign for them, are easily written into a "retirement" role.
Austere Emancipator
I should think Adolf Hitler and Iosif Vissarionovich Djugashvili are better examples of going from being a street thug to leading a world power. (Although it certainly took long enough for Stalin, and 8 years from a homeless ex-con to president even for Hitler.)
hermit
Hitler was first homeless and a veteran (well, he never made it beyond pfc, and never saw much action, but was a vet nonetheless), then did some time for a botched coup, and then rose, together with a policlub, to the historical figure that embodied evil like noone before him he ended up to be.

Saddam Hussein, though, is propably the perfect example. He started out as an orphan, was raised by a mean uncle who made his money by mugging, stealing, and generally petty crime, became a hit man, made contacts with Baathists, got a senior positionn in a coup attempt, made it out as one of the few coup leaders, then took over Baath, then Iraq ... the rest, I assume all of you here know.
Pthgar
Probably, the quickest route to power for a street thug in SR is to link up with a corp for dirty work, buy some subtle crome, act like a professional, get noticed by doing all the dirty jobs, become a company man, rise in the ranks of security, start to manage other company men, build a fiefdom, get the dirt on others, become indespensible, ruthelessly exploit your power, and finally blackimail your way into an unassailable position of power.

or

1. Invent a world changing product.
2. ...
3. Make a million dollars.
Nikoli
Is that from the "Habits of 7 Clones of Richard Villiers"?
nezumi
The problem people are pointing out is the difficulties of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps with no special breaks, that it takes lots of time and lots of work.

So the solution is easy. Give them a special break.

A mafia boss has recently gotten his paws on some serious Ares technology. I mean whizz-hot tech, and he had to break a lot of heads to get it. In the following firefight as Ares tries to retake it, or at minimum, destroy it, it falls into the PCs hands.

Aztechnology has invented a new drug, a very potent, very popular drug. Think Snow Crash. But they're dealing it right on the street, and trying to cut all links to the parent corp. So they figure the best way out is security through obscurity. The one thing they don't figure is, when the gang they're sponsoring starts pushing onto the PCs turf, is that the PCs are a little brighter and have a little more gumption than the average ganger, and that the aztec gang is a little too arrogant for their own good.

Most cyberpunk literature starts on the street and ends much, much higher. Snow Crash, Neuromancer, Idoru... The main characters of these stories are out of work, oftentimes used to be great, but have been totally castrated. Nobodies. But they're at the right (or wrong) place at the right time, and get swept up in the tides.
Vuron
QUOTE (Pthgar)
Probably, the quickest route to power for a street thug in SR is to link up with a corp for dirty work, buy some subtle crome, act like a professional, get noticed by doing all the dirty jobs, become a company man, rise in the ranks of security, start to manage other company men, build a fiefdom, get the dirt on others, become indespensible, ruthelessly exploit your power, and finally blackimail your way into an unassailable position of power.

or

1. Invent a world changing product.
2. ...
3. Make a million dollars.

Actually if you want really quick route to power volunteer to undergo experimental cyberware procedures and then escape. Sure you might have the flaws of mysterious cyberware, hunted and borrowed time among other flaws but you might come out of it with some cool crap like beta or delta ware smile.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (Vuron)
QUOTE (Pthgar @ Apr 15 2005, 09:28 AM)
Probably, the quickest route to power for a street thug in SR is to link up with a corp for dirty work, buy some subtle crome, act like a professional, get noticed by doing all the dirty jobs, become a company man, rise in the ranks of security, start to manage other company men, build a fiefdom, get the dirt on others, become indespensible, ruthelessly exploit your power, and finally blackimail your way into an unassailable position of power.

or

1.  Invent a world changing product.
2.  ...
3.  Make a million dollars.

Actually if you want really quick route to power volunteer to undergo experimental cyberware procedures and then escape. Sure you might have the flaws of mysterious cyberware, hunted and borrowed time among other flaws but you might come out of it with some cool crap like beta or delta ware smile.gif

Bah, amateur hour stuff. Two words: "Flesh Form". love.gif
Vuron
QUOTE (nezumi)
The problem people are pointing out is the difficulties of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps with no special breaks, that it takes lots of time and lots of work.

So the solution is easy. Give them a special break.

A mafia boss has recently gotten his paws on some serious Ares technology. I mean whizz-hot tech, and he had to break a lot of heads to get it. In the following firefight as Ares tries to retake it, or at minimum, destroy it, it falls into the PCs hands.

Aztechnology has invented a new drug, a very potent, very popular drug. Think Snow Crash. But they're dealing it right on the street, and trying to cut all links to the parent corp. So they figure the best way out is security through obscurity. The one thing they don't figure is, when the gang they're sponsoring starts pushing onto the PCs turf, is that the PCs are a little brighter and have a little more gumption than the average ganger, and that the aztec gang is a little too arrogant for their own good.

Most cyberpunk literature starts on the street and ends much, much higher. Snow Crash, Neuromancer, Idoru... The main characters of these stories are out of work, oftentimes used to be great, but have been totally castrated. Nobodies. But they're at the right (or wrong) place at the right time, and get swept up in the tides.

I concur go through a prelude with each character and if the GM and Player can come up with a nice background filled with numerous plot hooks of potentially good and bad nature you can easily justify having the street guys come up with interesting gear and edges early on in play.

For example at the start of the Secrets of Power Trilogy (yeah I know as a whole people dislike the trilogy) Sam Verner doesn't really have much going for him but he manages to get to know a variety of people in his early career before finding his true path. Granted he's also got major script immunity and some gamebreaking edges but the basic concept of a normal thown into some serious drek has been with SR since it was first introduced.

I for one don't think getting back to that as the focus is that bad of a thing for the game.
Demonseed Elite
I haven't had the free time to catch up and read all the new posts on this thread, but I think there's a misconception about "street." I'm not saying that the low level game is going to be the game of Shadowrun, not at all. I'm mainly getting at two things:

1) It's easier to build the game from the bottom-up. If the most basic character building allows for a Ganger or Rocker character to contribute alongside "low-level" street sams or deckers, then a game that starts at that level is viable for all those ideas. Of course, if the gamemaster wants to skip that level and start at a higher place, it's easy enough to do so by tweaking how many points or whatever the players start with for building. Now, at that point, will a simple Ganger be able to compete? Probably not. Edge being on the scale it is means that it only goes so far; far enough for assisting in a low power campaign, but definitely not enough to rely solely on for a high-power campaign. That character is going to have to invest in other things too: skills, attributes, cyberware, whatever, in which case they are not really just a Ganger anymore. In essence, you've skipped ahead in their personal development, but if the game wanted to start out at the beginning, it's perfectly viable to. It's easier to start at that foundation than to try to adapt it so those characters are viable with optional rules, as SR3 tried (but it didn't really work very well).

2) The "street" does not really mean a low level campaign. But it is an important part of Shadowrun's setting and theme. The characters come from the street, whether they were born there or ran to it. They are SINless, so the government doesn't acknowledge they exist. The corporations acknowledge them, but only so far as it serves them; they certainly don't take care of shadowrunners like they do their corporate citizens. Mr. Johnson comes down from on high to translate a corporation's wishes to the street, through a fixer to the runners. Even a professional runner lives by the rules of the street; a world of contacts and favors, fences and false identities.
Pthgar
QUOTE (Vuron)
Actually if you want really quick route to power volunteer to undergo experimental cyberware procedures and then escape. Sure you might have the flaws of mysterious cyberware, hunted and borrowed time among other flaws but you might come out of it with some cool crap like beta or delta ware smile.gif

Well, I was talking about real power, not bad-assness. All that that route would get you is a little kingdom in your neighborhood in the sprawl. You'd still be reletively poor and a big fish in a little pond. Not that I'm knocking that. wink.gif
Critias
I think it's funny how for most of SR3, people (myself included) shreiked and complained and shook their fists at the non-street power level of many published adventures, books (Dragonheart, anyone?), etc, etc, etc, stating that a lot of SR3 felt more like a comic book or a high-powered anime game than any flavor of Cyberpunk.

And now they're apparently making a concerted effort to move things back into the streets and shadows where they belong -- and lots of people (myself not included, this time) are complaining about them lowering the power level.

Oh bitter irony, we meet again.
Dawnshadow
Hey, I resent that! I like high power and have never complained about it...

Erm.. nor have I read the Dragonheart Trilogy or played published adventures though...
Vuron
QUOTE (Critias)
I think it's funny how for most of SR3, people (myself included) shreiked and complained and shook their fists at the non-street power level of many published adventures, books (Dragonheart, anyone?), etc, etc, etc, stating that a lot of SR3 felt more like a comic book or a high-powered anime game than any flavor of Cyberpunk.

And now they're apparently making a concerted effort to move things back into the streets and shadows where they belong -- and lots of people (myself not included, this time) are complaining about them lowering the power level.

Oh bitter irony, we meet again.

How dare you imply that people aren't allowed to be inconsistent! grinbig.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Critias)
And now they're apparently making a concerted effort to move things back into the streets and shadows where they belong -- and lots of people (myself not included, this time) are complaining about them lowering the power level.

Oh bitter irony, we meet again.

Maybe that's because the people that are now concerned about this are not the same ones that bitched about the power level previously. I really don't see the irony.
Kagetenshi
Woah, so you mean Dumpshock isn't monolithic, but actually has different people that support different things?

This is too much for me.

~J
Demonseed Elite
Yes, which makes it especially funny when people say "FanPro isn't listening to Dumpshock."

Listening to Dumpshock? Which voice in the Dumpshock multiple personality disorder? wink.gif
mfb
the ones i agree with, of course. the rest don't count.
Fortune
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
Which voice in the Dumpshock multiple personality disorder?

Mine, and mine alone. wink.gif
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