FAQ#4, What haven't they changed., That's it? Options

[RunnerPaul]

You're a game designer putting out a FAQ on the new edition, and you decide that there's a need to address what hasn't changed. You have about 1 paragraph of space that you feel is appropriate, so you can only highlight a few of the most important things that haven't changed. This is the list you settle on:

1. There are 5 basic metatypes to choose from for character race.
2. Contacts are still important.
3. There will be sample characters.
4. Experience awards are still called Karma.
5. The game is still about quasi-legal activities.

That's the best they could come up with? Those are the things that they thought it was most important to tell us that they weren't changing? Here's my reaction:

1. I notice they don't say which five (Like they'd drop Dwarves as a playable race to give us Sprites/Windlings, but hey, reading too much into these things is a tradition at this point). They also don't say that variant metatypes aren't also included in the main rules, so this little talking point is vague at best.
2. Very few games of this genre of RPG have the character working in an absolute vacuum, with no support whatsoever from people they know. This one deserves a big fat "DUH".
3. Inclusion or omission of Sample Characters is an editorial/book layout issue, not a game design issue. I doubt that telling us that they're still in would sway anyone's opinion of the system one way or another. Now if they'd said "We'll have sample characters, but we're no longer going to have them on separate glossy color plates..." either a. "because the whole book will be in color" or b. "due to feedback from everyone telling us that's where their book binding fails first", then that would have been useful info.
4. Yay. Karma still means experience (even if it might not equate to Luck anymore), and you haven't given the Orwellian NewSpeak treatment to that familiar term like you did with what "Dice Pool" means. I'm thrilled.
5. This is good to know, but it's such a big fat fraggin DUH, it's not even funny. Were they actually worried that someone out there thought that this'd turn into a D20 Urban Arcana clone, with an entirely different focus then previous editions had?

I know everyone says this about at least one of the FAQ answers each batch that gets put out, but this answer really worries me.

[mfb]

actually, i'm pretty satisfied with that. they've given us some pretty important information, in that blurb: namely, everything except the setting itself is changed or subject to change.

[Kagetenshi]

Indeed. If Rob wrote that himself, he's a shite marketer. The fact that "we've got the same number of sample characters" made the list… like I said in the other thread, I'm half-surprised he didn't say "we still number the pages".

The fact that FanPro appears to be wholly incapable of marketing effectively isn't good, but when combined with the fact that a big part of the reason for this update is marketing, well…

~J

[SirBedevere]

I'm glad I'm not the only one. The more I hear the less I like. :(

[RunnerPaul]

[hermit]

I'm pretty disappointed as to how this is gonna turn out. Not only will it likely mean I can shelve my long-term chaarcters due to impossibility (or at least, a heap of problems in) importing them into SR4, it also means the rules change in a way so drastic that the setting is affected too.

- Deckers and Riggers have been rolled into one. Will there still be vehicle rigs? No information available. Will Deckers even still need only a 0.2 essence implant to be useful? In all likelyhood not.
- Attributes are weighed very differently. Also, there're more attributes now.
- skills will have a limit of 6, meaning that anyone who invested a heap of Karma into a level 8 skill is fucked.
- the fact that weapons lose their power level attribute means the (vast) selection of different weapons in SR is narrowed very significantly, to generic heavy pistol, light pistol, shotgun type weapons with no individual character. There goes a very important element in SR's game universe, namely picking the right weapon for a character. I'm afraid this may affect vehicles and other misc. equipment as well.
- Magic is bought like an attribute, and likley raised like an attribute. There go initite circles, initiates, metamagic and all the other elements that made the SR magic system interesting.

I don't know whether they'l at least keep the mental/physical damage chart and the general idea of the damage resisting system (yes, it does slow the game down, but it also helps lower body characters have a chance at surviving a hit; with fixed resist levels, that won't be the case, and if you only have resist 3 and the shotgun scored four hits, you're fucked). I also truely hope they keep the resisted drain system in paying cost for spells, and don't use some sort of MP system, but I haven't got much hope any more.

All that doesn't change are the very basics of the setting. Well gee. Thanks.

I'm afraid SR4 will relate to the game formerly knwon as Shadowrun like Cybergeneration relates to CP2020.

I don't know what else is in store

[Kagetenshi]

Nitpick: it's attributes that are capped at six, not skills. You can compensate for +6 attributes by adding a few points to all linked skills.

~J

[hermit]

Weren't skills to be treated the same? If not, I'm a bit happier now that I can keep my vehicle-hacker-thingamajick's cars 8 skill.

[mfb]

[Grimtooth]

/sarcasm on


WOW this is great!!!!

Can I roll 3d6 for all of these new and original attributes?????

What alignment do i have to use to be a street sam???

/sarcasm off

[Demonseed Elite]

There's a lot more that remains in SR4 from previous incarnations. I obviously can't say what, exactly, until Rob says something about it, but reading through the rules is not unfamiliar territory at all, at least for me.

I think the root of the problem here is that Rob is writing these blurbs very quickly (probably because he's extremely busy), whereas the rest of us here spend endless amounts of time picking them apart, going over each word or phrase with a fine-toothed comb.

[hobgoblin]

[Lucyfersam]

Hermit:

The number of assumptions your making in that post is a bit crazy. There has been absolutely no information I've seen released about weapons, so there is no information to base assumptions on what the system for damage will be or that the weapon selection will be so dramatically reduced. Just because magic is an attribute doesn't mean it won't be raised through initiation. We know nothing about the magic system yet, so let's not jump to conclusions. There just isn't enough information out to start drawing conclusions like this.

So far I haven't seen anything in the changes to the system that necessitates changes to the setting and style of the game. They could lead to it yes, if implemented poorly. However, based on the one playtester who is posting here regularly, the feel of the game is preserved with the new system. Given that he's been a long time SR player, I'm going to trust him on this. I know jumping to conclusions and trying to draw more out of the information given are practically olympic sports around here (hey, I do it to sometimes), but this is getting a little extreme.

[blakkie]

[Westiex]

[hobgoblin]

heh, that A sounds just like some of the ones you will find in the SR3 FAQs, basicly it manages to generate new questions :P

i dont see why they should limit the skills to 6...

[StranD]

Wow, I'm getting seriously depressed. I'm still holding my breath but it's not looking good. I suspect I won't be buying the books until I hear some feedback about gameplay. I've invested too much money in SR1 through SR3 to make them all obsolete by a sub-par system that loses the detail that SR3 had provided.

I was really hoping that SR4 would fix the problem areas (a little bit of decking, all of rigging, etc) but now it looks like they changed the good bits too. It's like going back to SR1 and having to endure another 3 versions before things are almost at a sweet spot.

[Fortune]

[Austere Emancipa...]

blakkie: In an earlier thread I picked up on the same thing about Racial Modified Limits and Racial Maximums and how far they can be stretched and even breached in SR3. However, based on Synner's messages in that thread, it seems that the 6 +/- racial mods is a far stricter limit in SR4 than RML/RMax is in SR3. (And what Fortune said.)

[TeOdio]

[Synner]

[Fortune]

[Fortune]

[Synner]

The correct quote from the fact is (emphasis mine):

[Kagetenshi]

Synner: note that you're confusing RMLs and racial maxes. If we assume those three to be at their racial maxes, that's 9s across the board, and I don't think it'd be out of line to call them Exceptional, for a max of 11. Most Runners don't come close.

~J