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> Edge vs Karma Pool
Connor
post Apr 13 2005, 04:32 PM
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My one big concern is that the Karma Pool mechanic of representing the side-effect of knowledge gained through experience helping out in those stressful situtations will no longer be there.

My impressions on the Edge attribute make it more of an innate luck factor. Something the character was born with to a degree, but I do see the fact that earned Karma can raise this attribute and in some ways be a 'knowledge through experience' attribute. However, Karma Pool was part of the experience mechanic and basically didn't cost anything (well, it does obviously, but everyone pays it so it evens out in my simple view) so you had a dice pool that increased with Karma gained for everyone, but would be decreased if someone constantly found themselves in situations where they had to use a lot of hard work and a lot of luck to survive.

I guess my fear is that having a single attribute that tries to do both won't feel right. I'm sure as more info comes out and once I get a chance to play I may warm up to it, but until then I'm kind skeptical.
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Club
post Apr 13 2005, 04:38 PM
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I'm wondering if it's the same as the old mechwarrior RPG. I'll look up how that worked. Sometime later this week. Maybe month....
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Veracusse
post Apr 13 2005, 04:46 PM
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It seems kinda counter-intuitive to the reason for SR4. I thought the purpose of [sarcasm] streamlining the rules [/sarcasm] was to make everything follow the same set of rules. Now we have a new attribute that is acting like the Karma Pool and the other attributes acting like something different (At this point I am not sure what attributes mean in SR4).

So now there is an apparent disjoint between the function of the different attributes.

Veracusse
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Solstice
post Apr 13 2005, 04:52 PM
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If anything they are only confusing SR vets with more vauge wording and double meanings while at the same time not really offering anything in the way of information to make anyone new to SR understand wtf they are talking about.
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mfb
post Apr 13 2005, 04:55 PM
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the problem with SR3 was, the same attribute was being used in disparate situations. for instance, Intelligence was being used for both book-smarts and situational awareness. Einstein is the best example of why that doesn't model reality very well, but i'm sure anybody who thinks about it for a second can come up with similar examples from their own lives.

in other words, it's simpler to give disparate functions (such as book-smarts and situational awareness) their own stats than it is to try and squeeze them together into one. streamlining doesn't mean reduction in mass, it means shaping that mass for better flow.
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Grinder
post Apr 13 2005, 08:31 PM
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I would say we want until we know how edge is supposed to work before we begin with wild speculations about its impact on the game.
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mfb
post Apr 13 2005, 08:33 PM
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patience? restraint? what the hell kind of gamer are you?
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Solstice
post Apr 13 2005, 08:36 PM
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QUOTE (Grinder)
I would say we want until we know how edge is supposed to work before we begin with wild speculations about its impact on the game.

The thing is we WON'T know until it's too late....based on thier FAQ thus far.
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Aristotle
post Apr 13 2005, 08:39 PM
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I like the sound of the Edge attribute, but I'm waiting to see how it works exactly before I dedice how much I like the actual mechanic. I like the insinuation that it might provide a way for non-cybered/non-awakened characters to be a bit more viable even if they are still a little underpowered.
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mfb
post Apr 13 2005, 08:43 PM
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i like the fact that it's not limited to no-cyber mundanes, though no-cyber mundane player characters will have more points to spend on it. it means that it's possible to make a low-resources, no-magic player character that can survive in a magic/cyber group, but that Joe Average doesn't become superman.
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Grinder
post Apr 13 2005, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE (Solstice)
The thing is we WON'T know until it's too late....based on thier FAQ thus far.

You see? ;)
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 13 2005, 10:30 PM
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QUOTE (Solstice)
The thing is we WON'T know until it's too late....based on thier FAQ thus far.

"Too late" for what, exactly? You've already decided that you hate the new system, so it doesn't matter if it turns out to be the greatest system ever -- you're still going to hate it. It's already way too late for you.
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Solstice
post Apr 13 2005, 10:37 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Apr 13 2005, 05:30 PM)
QUOTE (Solstice @ Apr 13 2005, 02:36 PM)
The thing is we WON'T know until it's too late....based on thier FAQ thus far.

"Too late" for what, exactly? You've already decided that you hate the new system, so it doesn't matter if it turns out to be the greatest system ever -- you're still going to hate it. It's already way too late for you.

As far as I know, I've not used the word "hate" in any of my numerous oh-so-eloquent posts but thanks for actually caring what I might think.

Oh and since you can't grasp the obvious, "too late" would mean after it's written in stone, which, some of us were led to believe by various comments that much of this is not (at least that's their reasoning for the lack of info released). Hence, our discussions and suggestions in an attempt to perhaps influence something.
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FrostyNSO
post Apr 13 2005, 10:54 PM
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Whatever it is, the only way "Edge" is going to give non-cyber mundanes an edge of any kind is if it is adversly affected by cyber and/or magic.

Saying "Oh, well people who don't spend resources on cyber or magic will have more points to pay for it" is a cop-out. They'll have more points available for their strength and body too, so what. Bottom line is, nothing stops those cyber and magical characters from eventually maxing out their "edge" too as far as we know, unless it is somehow mutually exclusive of that cyber or magic.
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mfb
post Apr 13 2005, 11:10 PM
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right. that's a good thing.
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Method
post Apr 14 2005, 12:04 AM
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I'm with Frosty on this one. Unless there is some rule that prohibits a cybered or magical character from maxing out thier edge, then it will only be useful to mundanes for a game or two before everybody raises thier edge...

But all that aside, I'm curious to know how edge will work in the new "add your attribute and skill to form a situational dice pool" mechanics. Are the days of the reroll gone? they must be otherwise the edge attribute would work differently than other attributes, thus going against the stated goal (i.e. stream lining to remove such mechanics)...

Maybe a mundane can swap the attribute for other lower attributes (say body for damage resistance tests) to give him that "edge"...
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Connor
post Apr 14 2005, 06:37 AM
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Why should an Awakened character have less innate luck? Same for someone who gets cyberware installed. Doing things like that just to make mundanes more powerful seems a bit too proactive. Playing a regular joe should be difficult, even more difficult than it is when you're a burned out mage or a ex-seal or whatever.

I don't really think I have much against a luck-style attribute, but I think doing that in place of Karma Pool is like trading apples for oranges and calling them a better apple. It all really boils down to the intent of the rules and what the rules are trying to represent.

So again, just my impressions on it, I think Edge is something that should be available to every character equally, but I don't think Edge is a fitting replacement for the karma pool (intent-wise) and this where I still have some issues.

Ah well, back to waiting for the next FAQ announcement and whatever clouded vision of SR4 it brings us...heh.
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mfb
post Apr 14 2005, 07:09 AM
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magical and cybered characters can expend resources to gain Edge, but they'll do so by not getting new cyberware or improving their magic. at least, that's what's been suggested. what's wrong with that? sure, a mage could up his edge, but he wouldn't be able to grow in magical ability.
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sapphire_wyvern
post Apr 14 2005, 07:32 AM
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But, traditionally, one does not buy cyberware with Karma - one buys it with cold, hard, bits on a credstick (ie :nuyen:).

So, if SR4 is anything like previous editions, Awakened won't be able to afford Edge - too many other things to buy.

Now, at chargen, a mundane can afford extra Edge because of those extra BPs not going into resources. But there's no reason why a cybercharacter can't get new cyberware and additional Edge.
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mfb
post Apr 14 2005, 07:34 AM
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c'mon, man, you've read the same FAQs i have. how far do you think "it worked this way in SR3" is going to go?
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sapphire_wyvern
post Apr 14 2005, 07:38 AM
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Not very far; hence the disclaimer with regard to whether Awakened could afford Edge.

However, my point stands: unless you have to trade in Karma to actually get paid or buy equipment in SR4, cyberware will still not be traded off with Edge after character-generation. It's perfectly plausible to get both.

There will still be tradeoffs: between Edge and skills? Maybe. Edge and attributes? Maybe. Edge and magic? If it's like the olden days, probably; if Awakened != Karma-whore in this brave new world, maybe.

But there is still no clash between Edge and cyberware, just as there is no tradeoff between Attributes and cyberware or Skills and cyberware. They are bought with independent resources.
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mfb
post Apr 14 2005, 07:45 AM
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again, only if you assume game rewards work the way they did in SR3. maybe they're going to use the amoral campaign rules as default, in SR4. maybe there will be clearer guidelines for how to award nuyen and karma, so that it's harder for cyber characters to blow lots of money on 'ware and still have lots of karma for skills. maybe it costs karma to integrate cyberware with your body, now.
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Wireknight
post Apr 14 2005, 07:47 AM
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If edge is a karma pool-esque statistic that is an attribute, then the easiest way I have imagining it, in SR3 terminology, would be that the spare build points you would spend on skills or attributes, as a mundane uncybered human, you could instead spend on having a massive karma pool from the get-go. The problem with this is that karma pool is generally finite, and really only lets you perform to the best of your abilities, rather than beyond your abilities. If your abilities are less than the cybered or Awakened character, you'll fall back on Edge a lot more. If Edge, like Karma Pool, is a limited-use/slow-refresh statistic, you'll run out of Edge long before the samurai's wires need a tune-up.

Basically, no matter how you stat it, within reason (i.e. if you stat it in a way that is unreasonable, then this does not apply) I cannot forsee Edge in any way, shape, or form equalizing the playing field for unaugmented mundanes competing with the augmented and Awakened in the same areas of use. If it's an attribute, and attributes are still relatively expensive, you'd probably be better off just dropping the points you'd toss into Edge into skills or other attributes, which provide a concrete and, short of grievous bodily harm, unfatigueable source of performance.
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Vuron
post Apr 14 2005, 01:31 PM
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QUOTE (Wireknight)
If edge is a karma pool-esque statistic that is an attribute, then the easiest way I have imagining it, in SR3 terminology, would be that the spare build points you would spend on skills or attributes, as a mundane uncybered human, you could instead spend on having a massive karma pool from the get-go. The problem with this is that karma pool is generally finite, and really only lets you perform to the best of your abilities, rather than beyond your abilities. If your abilities are less than the cybered or Awakened character, you'll fall back on Edge a lot more. If Edge, like Karma Pool, is a limited-use/slow-refresh statistic, you'll run out of Edge long before the samurai's wires need a tune-up.

Basically, no matter how you stat it, within reason (i.e. if you stat it in a way that is unreasonable, then this does not apply) I cannot forsee Edge in any way, shape, or form equalizing the playing field for unaugmented mundanes competing with the augmented and Awakened in the same areas of use. If it's an attribute, and attributes are still relatively expensive, you'd probably be better off just dropping the points you'd toss into Edge into skills or other attributes, which provide a concrete and, short of grievous bodily harm, unfatigueable source of performance.

About the point of whether it will make sense for mundane unaugmented to continue spending on edge if it's significantly more expensive to increase than skills (which I think is pretty much a given with the new dice mechanics) I think the idea is to have edge be a wildcard effect moreso than a guaranteed power upgrade. It's key advantage would be that it could be used on any test at anytime rather than specific instances like skills and other attributes.

So while increasing combat skills and quickness or reaction might provide a more tangible benefit for combat situations this would allow the rocker to continue devoting a large amount of karma towards skills like social and his "music" while still being occasionally useful in combat if he decides to burn his edge dice.

If you go further and assume that edge dice would replenish every scene rather than every session like Karma you could see edge being extremely useful for 1-2 actions in every scene. So it wouldn't have to be a direct correspondance to the karma pool but more of an intangible random effect that increases PC utility.

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post Apr 14 2005, 06:35 PM
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QUOTE (SR4 FAQ 4)
Karma Pool has been replaced by an Edge attribute.


QUOTE (SR4 FAQ 3)
6 is the maximum natural rating for attributes (before racial modifiers are applied).


Oh, this is just swell... This implies a hard cap of your KP eqv. at 6 (I doubt any races have a racial modification of Edge), which ... wait for it ... is like being stuck at 50 Karma forever.

This sucks. This sucks a lot.
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