Edge vs Karma Pool Options

[Connor]

My one big concern is that the Karma Pool mechanic of representing the side-effect of knowledge gained through experience helping out in those stressful situtations will no longer be there.

My impressions on the Edge attribute make it more of an innate luck factor. Something the character was born with to a degree, but I do see the fact that earned Karma can raise this attribute and in some ways be a 'knowledge through experience' attribute. However, Karma Pool was part of the experience mechanic and basically didn't cost anything (well, it does obviously, but everyone pays it so it evens out in my simple view) so you had a dice pool that increased with Karma gained for everyone, but would be decreased if someone constantly found themselves in situations where they had to use a lot of hard work and a lot of luck to survive.

I guess my fear is that having a single attribute that tries to do both won't feel right. I'm sure as more info comes out and once I get a chance to play I may warm up to it, but until then I'm kind skeptical.

[Club]

I'm wondering if it's the same as the old mechwarrior RPG. I'll look up how that worked. Sometime later this week. Maybe month....

[Veracusse]

It seems kinda counter-intuitive to the reason for SR4. I thought the purpose of [sarcasm] streamlining the rules [/sarcasm] was to make everything follow the same set of rules. Now we have a new attribute that is acting like the Karma Pool and the other attributes acting like something different (At this point I am not sure what attributes mean in SR4).

So now there is an apparent disjoint between the function of the different attributes.

Veracusse

[Solstice]

If anything they are only confusing SR vets with more vauge wording and double meanings while at the same time not really offering anything in the way of information to make anyone new to SR understand wtf they are talking about.

[mfb]

the problem with SR3 was, the same attribute was being used in disparate situations. for instance, Intelligence was being used for both book-smarts and situational awareness. Einstein is the best example of why that doesn't model reality very well, but i'm sure anybody who thinks about it for a second can come up with similar examples from their own lives.

in other words, it's simpler to give disparate functions (such as book-smarts and situational awareness) their own stats than it is to try and squeeze them together into one. streamlining doesn't mean reduction in mass, it means shaping that mass for better flow.

[Grinder]

I would say we want until we know how edge is supposed to work before we begin with wild speculations about its impact on the game.

[mfb]

patience? restraint? what the hell kind of gamer are you?

[Solstice]

[Aristotle]

I like the sound of the Edge attribute, but I'm waiting to see how it works exactly before I dedice how much I like the actual mechanic. I like the insinuation that it might provide a way for non-cybered/non-awakened characters to be a bit more viable even if they are still a little underpowered.

[mfb]

i like the fact that it's not limited to no-cyber mundanes, though no-cyber mundane player characters will have more points to spend on it. it means that it's possible to make a low-resources, no-magic player character that can survive in a magic/cyber group, but that Joe Average doesn't become superman.

[Grinder]

[Ol' Scratch]

[Solstice]

[FrostyNSO]

Whatever it is, the only way "Edge" is going to give non-cyber mundanes an edge of any kind is if it is adversly affected by cyber and/or magic.

Saying "Oh, well people who don't spend resources on cyber or magic will have more points to pay for it" is a cop-out. They'll have more points available for their strength and body too, so what. Bottom line is, nothing stops those cyber and magical characters from eventually maxing out their "edge" too as far as we know, unless it is somehow mutually exclusive of that cyber or magic.

[mfb]

right. that's a good thing.

[Method]

I'm with Frosty on this one. Unless there is some rule that prohibits a cybered or magical character from maxing out thier edge, then it will only be useful to mundanes for a game or two before everybody raises thier edge...

But all that aside, I'm curious to know how edge will work in the new "add your attribute and skill to form a situational dice pool" mechanics. Are the days of the reroll gone? they must be otherwise the edge attribute would work differently than other attributes, thus going against the stated goal (i.e. stream lining to remove such mechanics)...

Maybe a mundane can swap the attribute for other lower attributes (say body for damage resistance tests) to give him that "edge"...

[Connor]

Why should an Awakened character have less innate luck? Same for someone who gets cyberware installed. Doing things like that just to make mundanes more powerful seems a bit too proactive. Playing a regular joe should be difficult, even more difficult than it is when you're a burned out mage or a ex-seal or whatever.

I don't really think I have much against a luck-style attribute, but I think doing that in place of Karma Pool is like trading apples for oranges and calling them a better apple. It all really boils down to the intent of the rules and what the rules are trying to represent.

So again, just my impressions on it, I think Edge is something that should be available to every character equally, but I don't think Edge is a fitting replacement for the karma pool (intent-wise) and this where I still have some issues.

Ah well, back to waiting for the next FAQ announcement and whatever clouded vision of SR4 it brings us...heh.

[mfb]

magical and cybered characters can expend resources to gain Edge, but they'll do so by not getting new cyberware or improving their magic. at least, that's what's been suggested. what's wrong with that? sure, a mage could up his edge, but he wouldn't be able to grow in magical ability.

[sapphire_wyvern]

But, traditionally, one does not buy cyberware with Karma - one buys it with cold, hard, bits on a credstick (ie :nuyen:).

So, if SR4 is anything like previous editions, Awakened won't be able to afford Edge - too many other things to buy.

Now, at chargen, a mundane can afford extra Edge because of those extra BPs not going into resources. But there's no reason why a cybercharacter can't get new cyberware and additional Edge.

[mfb]

c'mon, man, you've read the same FAQs i have. how far do you think "it worked this way in SR3" is going to go?

[sapphire_wyvern]

Not very far; hence the disclaimer with regard to whether Awakened could afford Edge.

However, my point stands: unless you have to trade in Karma to actually get paid or buy equipment in SR4, cyberware will still not be traded off with Edge after character-generation. It's perfectly plausible to get both.

There will still be tradeoffs: between Edge and skills? Maybe. Edge and attributes? Maybe. Edge and magic? If it's like the olden days, probably; if Awakened != Karma-whore in this brave new world, maybe.

But there is still no clash between Edge and cyberware, just as there is no tradeoff between Attributes and cyberware or Skills and cyberware. They are bought with independent resources.

[mfb]

again, only if you assume game rewards work the way they did in SR3. maybe they're going to use the amoral campaign rules as default, in SR4. maybe there will be clearer guidelines for how to award nuyen and karma, so that it's harder for cyber characters to blow lots of money on 'ware and still have lots of karma for skills. maybe it costs karma to integrate cyberware with your body, now.

[Wireknight]

If edge is a karma pool-esque statistic that is an attribute, then the easiest way I have imagining it, in SR3 terminology, would be that the spare build points you would spend on skills or attributes, as a mundane uncybered human, you could instead spend on having a massive karma pool from the get-go. The problem with this is that karma pool is generally finite, and really only lets you perform to the best of your abilities, rather than beyond your abilities. If your abilities are less than the cybered or Awakened character, you'll fall back on Edge a lot more. If Edge, like Karma Pool, is a limited-use/slow-refresh statistic, you'll run out of Edge long before the samurai's wires need a tune-up.

Basically, no matter how you stat it, within reason (i.e. if you stat it in a way that is unreasonable, then this does not apply) I cannot forsee Edge in any way, shape, or form equalizing the playing field for unaugmented mundanes competing with the augmented and Awakened in the same areas of use. If it's an attribute, and attributes are still relatively expensive, you'd probably be better off just dropping the points you'd toss into Edge into skills or other attributes, which provide a concrete and, short of grievous bodily harm, unfatigueable source of performance.

[Vuron]

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]