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Connor
My one big concern is that the Karma Pool mechanic of representing the side-effect of knowledge gained through experience helping out in those stressful situtations will no longer be there.

My impressions on the Edge attribute make it more of an innate luck factor. Something the character was born with to a degree, but I do see the fact that earned Karma can raise this attribute and in some ways be a 'knowledge through experience' attribute. However, Karma Pool was part of the experience mechanic and basically didn't cost anything (well, it does obviously, but everyone pays it so it evens out in my simple view) so you had a dice pool that increased with Karma gained for everyone, but would be decreased if someone constantly found themselves in situations where they had to use a lot of hard work and a lot of luck to survive.

I guess my fear is that having a single attribute that tries to do both won't feel right. I'm sure as more info comes out and once I get a chance to play I may warm up to it, but until then I'm kind skeptical.
Club
I'm wondering if it's the same as the old mechwarrior RPG. I'll look up how that worked. Sometime later this week. Maybe month....
Veracusse
It seems kinda counter-intuitive to the reason for SR4. I thought the purpose of [sarcasm] streamlining the rules [/sarcasm] was to make everything follow the same set of rules. Now we have a new attribute that is acting like the Karma Pool and the other attributes acting like something different (At this point I am not sure what attributes mean in SR4).

So now there is an apparent disjoint between the function of the different attributes.

Veracusse
Solstice
If anything they are only confusing SR vets with more vauge wording and double meanings while at the same time not really offering anything in the way of information to make anyone new to SR understand wtf they are talking about.
mfb
the problem with SR3 was, the same attribute was being used in disparate situations. for instance, Intelligence was being used for both book-smarts and situational awareness. Einstein is the best example of why that doesn't model reality very well, but i'm sure anybody who thinks about it for a second can come up with similar examples from their own lives.

in other words, it's simpler to give disparate functions (such as book-smarts and situational awareness) their own stats than it is to try and squeeze them together into one. streamlining doesn't mean reduction in mass, it means shaping that mass for better flow.
Grinder
I would say we want until we know how edge is supposed to work before we begin with wild speculations about its impact on the game.
mfb
patience? restraint? what the hell kind of gamer are you?
Solstice
QUOTE (Grinder)
I would say we want until we know how edge is supposed to work before we begin with wild speculations about its impact on the game.

The thing is we WON'T know until it's too late....based on thier FAQ thus far.
Aristotle
I like the sound of the Edge attribute, but I'm waiting to see how it works exactly before I dedice how much I like the actual mechanic. I like the insinuation that it might provide a way for non-cybered/non-awakened characters to be a bit more viable even if they are still a little underpowered.
mfb
i like the fact that it's not limited to no-cyber mundanes, though no-cyber mundane player characters will have more points to spend on it. it means that it's possible to make a low-resources, no-magic player character that can survive in a magic/cyber group, but that Joe Average doesn't become superman.
Grinder
QUOTE (Solstice)
The thing is we WON'T know until it's too late....based on thier FAQ thus far.

You see? wink.gif
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Solstice)
The thing is we WON'T know until it's too late....based on thier FAQ thus far.

"Too late" for what, exactly? You've already decided that you hate the new system, so it doesn't matter if it turns out to be the greatest system ever -- you're still going to hate it. It's already way too late for you.
Solstice
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Apr 13 2005, 05:30 PM)
QUOTE (Solstice @ Apr 13 2005, 02:36 PM)
The thing is we WON'T know until it's too late....based on thier FAQ thus far.

"Too late" for what, exactly? You've already decided that you hate the new system, so it doesn't matter if it turns out to be the greatest system ever -- you're still going to hate it. It's already way too late for you.

As far as I know, I've not used the word "hate" in any of my numerous oh-so-eloquent posts but thanks for actually caring what I might think.

Oh and since you can't grasp the obvious, "too late" would mean after it's written in stone, which, some of us were led to believe by various comments that much of this is not (at least that's their reasoning for the lack of info released). Hence, our discussions and suggestions in an attempt to perhaps influence something.
FrostyNSO
Whatever it is, the only way "Edge" is going to give non-cyber mundanes an edge of any kind is if it is adversly affected by cyber and/or magic.

Saying "Oh, well people who don't spend resources on cyber or magic will have more points to pay for it" is a cop-out. They'll have more points available for their strength and body too, so what. Bottom line is, nothing stops those cyber and magical characters from eventually maxing out their "edge" too as far as we know, unless it is somehow mutually exclusive of that cyber or magic.
mfb
right. that's a good thing.
Method
I'm with Frosty on this one. Unless there is some rule that prohibits a cybered or magical character from maxing out thier edge, then it will only be useful to mundanes for a game or two before everybody raises thier edge...

But all that aside, I'm curious to know how edge will work in the new "add your attribute and skill to form a situational dice pool" mechanics. Are the days of the reroll gone? they must be otherwise the edge attribute would work differently than other attributes, thus going against the stated goal (i.e. stream lining to remove such mechanics)...

Maybe a mundane can swap the attribute for other lower attributes (say body for damage resistance tests) to give him that "edge"...
Connor
Why should an Awakened character have less innate luck? Same for someone who gets cyberware installed. Doing things like that just to make mundanes more powerful seems a bit too proactive. Playing a regular joe should be difficult, even more difficult than it is when you're a burned out mage or a ex-seal or whatever.

I don't really think I have much against a luck-style attribute, but I think doing that in place of Karma Pool is like trading apples for oranges and calling them a better apple. It all really boils down to the intent of the rules and what the rules are trying to represent.

So again, just my impressions on it, I think Edge is something that should be available to every character equally, but I don't think Edge is a fitting replacement for the karma pool (intent-wise) and this where I still have some issues.

Ah well, back to waiting for the next FAQ announcement and whatever clouded vision of SR4 it brings us...heh.
mfb
magical and cybered characters can expend resources to gain Edge, but they'll do so by not getting new cyberware or improving their magic. at least, that's what's been suggested. what's wrong with that? sure, a mage could up his edge, but he wouldn't be able to grow in magical ability.
sapphire_wyvern
But, traditionally, one does not buy cyberware with Karma - one buys it with cold, hard, bits on a credstick (ie nuyen.gif).

So, if SR4 is anything like previous editions, Awakened won't be able to afford Edge - too many other things to buy.

Now, at chargen, a mundane can afford extra Edge because of those extra BPs not going into resources. But there's no reason why a cybercharacter can't get new cyberware and additional Edge.
mfb
c'mon, man, you've read the same FAQs i have. how far do you think "it worked this way in SR3" is going to go?
sapphire_wyvern
Not very far; hence the disclaimer with regard to whether Awakened could afford Edge.

However, my point stands: unless you have to trade in Karma to actually get paid or buy equipment in SR4, cyberware will still not be traded off with Edge after character-generation. It's perfectly plausible to get both.

There will still be tradeoffs: between Edge and skills? Maybe. Edge and attributes? Maybe. Edge and magic? If it's like the olden days, probably; if Awakened != Karma-whore in this brave new world, maybe.

But there is still no clash between Edge and cyberware, just as there is no tradeoff between Attributes and cyberware or Skills and cyberware. They are bought with independent resources.
mfb
again, only if you assume game rewards work the way they did in SR3. maybe they're going to use the amoral campaign rules as default, in SR4. maybe there will be clearer guidelines for how to award nuyen and karma, so that it's harder for cyber characters to blow lots of money on 'ware and still have lots of karma for skills. maybe it costs karma to integrate cyberware with your body, now.
Wireknight
If edge is a karma pool-esque statistic that is an attribute, then the easiest way I have imagining it, in SR3 terminology, would be that the spare build points you would spend on skills or attributes, as a mundane uncybered human, you could instead spend on having a massive karma pool from the get-go. The problem with this is that karma pool is generally finite, and really only lets you perform to the best of your abilities, rather than beyond your abilities. If your abilities are less than the cybered or Awakened character, you'll fall back on Edge a lot more. If Edge, like Karma Pool, is a limited-use/slow-refresh statistic, you'll run out of Edge long before the samurai's wires need a tune-up.

Basically, no matter how you stat it, within reason (i.e. if you stat it in a way that is unreasonable, then this does not apply) I cannot forsee Edge in any way, shape, or form equalizing the playing field for unaugmented mundanes competing with the augmented and Awakened in the same areas of use. If it's an attribute, and attributes are still relatively expensive, you'd probably be better off just dropping the points you'd toss into Edge into skills or other attributes, which provide a concrete and, short of grievous bodily harm, unfatigueable source of performance.
Vuron
QUOTE (Wireknight)
If edge is a karma pool-esque statistic that is an attribute, then the easiest way I have imagining it, in SR3 terminology, would be that the spare build points you would spend on skills or attributes, as a mundane uncybered human, you could instead spend on having a massive karma pool from the get-go. The problem with this is that karma pool is generally finite, and really only lets you perform to the best of your abilities, rather than beyond your abilities. If your abilities are less than the cybered or Awakened character, you'll fall back on Edge a lot more. If Edge, like Karma Pool, is a limited-use/slow-refresh statistic, you'll run out of Edge long before the samurai's wires need a tune-up.

Basically, no matter how you stat it, within reason (i.e. if you stat it in a way that is unreasonable, then this does not apply) I cannot forsee Edge in any way, shape, or form equalizing the playing field for unaugmented mundanes competing with the augmented and Awakened in the same areas of use. If it's an attribute, and attributes are still relatively expensive, you'd probably be better off just dropping the points you'd toss into Edge into skills or other attributes, which provide a concrete and, short of grievous bodily harm, unfatigueable source of performance.

About the point of whether it will make sense for mundane unaugmented to continue spending on edge if it's significantly more expensive to increase than skills (which I think is pretty much a given with the new dice mechanics) I think the idea is to have edge be a wildcard effect moreso than a guaranteed power upgrade. It's key advantage would be that it could be used on any test at anytime rather than specific instances like skills and other attributes.

So while increasing combat skills and quickness or reaction might provide a more tangible benefit for combat situations this would allow the rocker to continue devoting a large amount of karma towards skills like social and his "music" while still being occasionally useful in combat if he decides to burn his edge dice.

If you go further and assume that edge dice would replenish every scene rather than every session like Karma you could see edge being extremely useful for 1-2 actions in every scene. So it wouldn't have to be a direct correspondance to the karma pool but more of an intangible random effect that increases PC utility.

Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (SR4 FAQ 4)
Karma Pool has been replaced by an Edge attribute.


QUOTE (SR4 FAQ 3)
6 is the maximum natural rating for attributes (before racial modifiers are applied).


Oh, this is just swell... This implies a hard cap of your KP eqv. at 6 (I doubt any races have a racial modification of Edge), which ... wait for it ... is like being stuck at 50 Karma forever.

This sucks. This sucks a lot.
blakkie
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
QUOTE (SR4 FAQ 4)
Karma Pool has been replaced by an Edge attribute.


QUOTE (SR4 FAQ 3)
6 is the maximum natural rating for attributes (before racial modifiers are applied).


Oh, this is just swell... This implies a hard cap of your KP eqv. at 6 (I doubt any races have a racial modification of Edge), which ... wait for it ... is like being stuck at 50 Karma forever.

This sucks. This sucks a lot.

That's why I suspect that 6 is not the hard cap, at least not for ALL attributes (like Magic, for example).
FrostyNSO
ooh, that certainly steamlines it.
Crimsondude 2.0
That's one word for it.

And I am prone to take his words literally until otherwise corrected, especially in light of Ellery's point about Force. If there is no Force limit on spells (or spirits), then... Who needs Initiation for Magic increase (beyond 6; and metamagics are still in play)? And that really streamlines things, now, doesn't it?
blakkie
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
That's one word for it.

And I am prone to take his words literally until otherwise corrected, especially in light of Ellery's point about Force. If there is no Force limit on spells (or spirits), then... Who needs Initiation for Magic increase (beyond 6; and metamagics are still in play)? And that really streamlines things, now, doesn't it?

FAQ #3 didn't discuss doesn't Magic as an attribute at all, where the 6 limit on attributes was mentioned. Nor was Edge mentioned, so having a cap on it doesn't make that much sense.

We also know that they still expected Initiation to be in (from the descripton of Street Magic), though that could have changed. Frankly I'd like to see Metamagic split out separately from Initiation, or make Metamagic the main reason for Initiation.

As for Force disappearing or change to a 6 limit or whatever, well that's complete conjecture and/or wishful thinking. We have had no information about the Magic system other than Magic can now start out lower than 6.
Vuron
Considering that Magic gets heavily reworked in every edition I'm not sure that making a whole lot of guesses about how magic will work in SR4 is remotely practical ATM.

In terms of a hard cap I'd say it really depends on how much it costs to upgrade attributes if you follow what some playtesters have implied I think there is likely some mechanic that significantly increases the costs of purchasing attributes beyond a baseline of 6 in SR4. Whether that is some sort of open ended system based on exponential growth of the cost beyond 6 (Ellery I think has suggested exponential cost growth and I tend to agree with that idea as it makes it where you need no hard cap on attributes but that high attributes are selflimiting- if strength 6 requires 40 karma, strength 7 requires 80 karma, strength 8 160 karma etc then almost nobody will invest in having a unaugmented human with strength 10 etc) or if it uses some other sort of mechanic that requires a hard cap on absolute racial maximum is not known.

I'd also tend to assume that Edge and Magic are going to have much higher costs for upgrading than the regular attributes (otherwise everyone and thier dog will have magic 2 or 3) but that if you really have the karma to burn you can have double digits in both stats it's just that unlike SR3 magic and edge in the high single digits and double digits is going to be really really rare.
Wireknight
QUOTE (Vuron)
About the point of whether it will make sense for mundane unaugmented to continue spending on edge if it's significantly more expensive to increase than skills (which I think is pretty much a given with the new dice mechanics) I think the idea is to have edge be a wildcard effect moreso than a guaranteed power upgrade. It's key advantage would be that it could be used on any test at anytime rather than specific instances like skills and other attributes.

They should say that, then. As it is, they seem to be unintentionally misleading people. Edge is somehow, as-stated, the equalizer for the unaugmented and unawakened. I don't see it being that, if it performs reasonably, and I see it being unreasonable and overpowered if it permits unaugmented mundanes to go head to head with their augmented and awakened counterparts in a field where the latter's abilities are designed to provide benefit.
Vuron
QUOTE (Wireknight)
QUOTE (Vuron @ Apr 14 2005, 01:31 PM)
About the point of whether it will make sense for mundane unaugmented to continue spending on edge if it's significantly more expensive to increase than skills (which I think is pretty much a given with the new dice mechanics) I think the idea is to have edge be a wildcard effect moreso than a guaranteed power upgrade. It's key advantage would be that it could be used on any test at anytime rather than specific instances like skills and other attributes.

They should say that, then. As it is, they seem to be unintentionally misleading people. Edge is somehow, as-stated, the equalizer for the unaugmented and unawakened. I don't see it being that, if it performs reasonably, and I see it being unreasonable and overpowered if it permits unaugmented mundanes to go head to head with their augmented and awakened counterparts in a field where the latter's abilities are designed to provide benefit.

I think that various playtesters have indicated it's more of a single use random mechanic that's designed to give unaugmented mundanes the possibility of hanging with specialists (combat, technical, etc pretty much anything but awakened only abilities) for a short period of time.

So it might be that for 1 combat round Edge allows the ganger to kick some serious ass but the next round he's back down in the bush leagues.

or

It might be a mechanic for when the designated healer is down and out or dying and you want that ganger to manage to bring the combat monkey back online after he took an assault cannon shot.

I think the idea is to give certain archetypes the ability to be "floaters" that round in round out pale in comparison to the augmented archetypes but have the ability to do some special things on occasion (ie give them face time in front of the camera).

So I'm pretty certain samurai and adept characters are going to be the kings of the battlefield 99% of the time it's just that they can't count out the ganger all the time.
Wireknight
I agree, and the whole "various playtesters" thing is all well and good, but the FAQ is what I'm referring to. If the FAQ is giving impressions that the playtesters are having to reinterpret, clarify, or politely disagree with, then it implies a disparity in thought about how the system works between Rob and others. That's kind of creepy to me, since, whether or not anyone thinks a system is good or bad, people should generally be able to look at the mechanics and be able to determine with little room for disagreement just what it can and can't do.

What I'm really worried about is that the major players in the redesign might not be weighting the system based on what its various attributes are statistically capable of, and heaping promises of interesting and beneficial rules on systems that they think look good, but aren't quite mathematically capable of generating the sort of benefits to the game that they believe they can.
blakkie
@ Wireknight

Look what happened when Rob took the shortcut of putting "And so on." at the end of one of the FAQ #4 answers. People freaked that the incomplete list didn't have their pet whatever. People freaked and exploded. Not just a little bit here and there, but on top of that a complete thread filled with pent up bile. Defusing that sort of stuff would require, well in the case of some people it might be undefusable. *shrug* But for many, many others it would require the full finished rules in their hot little hands. That just isn't going to happen.

So they put out the perlimanery peeps of info. Tiny bits to get people reved up. Then when things clear a bit a lot of the uncertainty goes away and a lot of the people will swing back to "ok, ok, it's not the end of the SR world". Personally I've seen just about enough to do me till Junish or so. When we might start seeing a bit more meaningful info.

But in the meantime you know what we need? Bull. Bull can clarify all this. cool.gif
Wireknight
QUOTE
Karma Pool has been replaced by an Edge attribute. Edge is used in many similar ways as Karma Pool was–it is still a “luck factor,” but it is now an attribute rather than a mark of experience. This makes it especially useful to non-cyber and non-magic characters, as they will have a way of keeping ahead of the game.


I just don't think it's wise to imply that Edge is going to be some panacea that makes a character whose player has chosen to not take avantage of magic or augmentations in character creation able to keep pace with characters who are Awakened/augmented. The only way you're safe making a claim like that is if Edge permits you to perform superhuman feats, like equalling the Strength or Agility of a guy who has muscle replacement, or equalling the Reaction and Initiative dice of a guy who has wired reflexes, or matching the close combat abilities of an adept who's got a bunch of improved ability dice.

If edge lets you do anything like that, to maintain balance, it would only let you do it once in a very long period of time (at least a couple sessions), making it not much of a help when you're attempting to compete on a regular basis, or, if it does this sort of thing enough to make competition on a regular basis possible, everyone is going to pour effort into raising their Edge, and disregard adept powers or cyberware. Cyberware gets damaged, magic rating can be lost. Nothing, short of burning it for tremendous improvement of one's luck (again, assuming Edge equates to Karma Pool insofar as that it's good to use, but provides substantial benefit if permanently burned), could take your Edge from you.

Which is why I think that either they overblew just what Edge will mean to a mundane competing with augments and adepts, or Edge is going to cause major problems.
Papadoc
Just an idea, but what if "edge" was a "luck" "attribute" chosen at character creation then FIXED at that level (i.e. unable (other than maybe through roll-playing) to be changed up or down). Every character could have some degree of luck based on the player's idea(s) for the character. Keep Karma Pool as is, and used the same way. In my opinion; Karma Pool = experience, not luck, and hard earned at that. This way starting characters will have some "edge" to use for thous "have to succeed" moments.

This is just an idea that I have been kicking around in my head. I like the idea of a "luck" attribute, however, I do not believe this should be a malleable number.

Just my .02 nuyen.gif worth, YMMV!
Fygg Nuuton
i hope edge is available to cybered and magic folk

the whole cyuberpunk concept relies on the haves and the havenots. if the havenots are just as strong than the haves, then theres a problem
Synner
Edge will be available to everyone. It's just generally easier to invest in (and hence more useful) to those who aren't augmented by cyber or magic.
DrJest
I'll admit it makes me a little uncomfortable. Just have to see how it plays out, really. But I must say, if someone doesn't have cyber or magic on their side, I honestly think they should get a can of arse-kicking opened on them by the folks that do. Otherwise, what's the point of investing in hundreds of thousands of nuyens worth of cyberware?
Crimsondude 2.0
I agree with DrJest.

If you're a completely mundane mundane, then running the shadows should be like trying to win an ass-kicking contest without any legs.
blakkie
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
I agree with DrJest.

If you're a completely mundane mundane, then running the shadows should be like trying to win an ass-kicking contest without any legs.

...which is entirely possible...if you are willing to shoot all the other contestants dead. cool.gif
FrostyNSO
I think if you're going to say that un-cybered, un-magical, mundanes can't hack it, you are really limiting yourself.

Just look at the races. Troll, orcs, dwarves, and elves all have innate abilities that they can use to their advantage. A troll without cyber is still likely to be as strong as an ox, that orc is going to be able to take a few more punches, the elf is going to be just a little quicker and can get places with that big charisma boost. Dwarves have great stats, all of them have lowlight or thermographic vision.

And beside all this, if you can out-think your opponent, you don't need the cyber and magic goodies. A little brains go a long ways, especially when your "playing from behind".
Fortune
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
I think if you're going to say that un-cybered, un-magical, mundanes can't hack it, you are really limiting yourself.

Just look at the races. Troll, orcs, dwarves, and elves all have innate abilities that they can use to their advantage. A troll without cyber is still likely to be as strong as an ox, that orc is going to be able to take a few more punches, the elf is going to be just a little quicker and can get places with that big charisma boost. Dwarves have great stats, all of them have lowlight or thermographic vision.

And beside all this, if you can out-think your opponent, you don't need the cyber and magic goodies. A little brains go a long ways, especially when your "playing from behind".

Right, but none of that means that there is a need for an arbitrary 'balancing' factor like Edge.
FrostyNSO
You are, IMHO, correct in that.

In fact, if I choose to play character like that again, I don't want him to need (and i doubt he will) a "cheat" in order to hack it with the big boys.
blakkie
QUOTE (Fortune)
Right, but none of that means that there is a need for an arbitrary 'balancing' factor like Edge.

You mean "...like some people claim Edge is, based on small throw-away comment in an extremely vague FAQ." ? wink.gif
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Apr 16 2005, 10:21 PM)
Right, but none of that means that there is a need for an arbitrary 'balancing' factor like Edge.

You mean "...like some people claim Edge is, based on small throw-away comment in an extremely vague FAQ." ? wink.gif

I see nothing vague about "This makes it especially useful to non-cyber and non-magic characters, as they will have a way of keeping ahead of the game."
blakkie
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Apr 17 2005, 12:27 AM)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Apr 16 2005, 10:21 PM)
Right, but none of that means that there is a need for an arbitrary 'balancing' factor like Edge.

You mean "...like some people claim Edge is, based on small throw-away comment in an extremely vague FAQ." ? wink.gif

I see nothing vague about "This makes it especially useful to non-cyber and non-magic characters, as they will have a way of keeping ahead of the game."

I said a vague -FAQ-. nyahnyah.gif The sentence I contend is a throw-away line, or at the least being over interpreted.
RunnerPaul
I see nothing "throw-away" about it either.
Synner
It is throwaway in that since the actual effects of Edge are not quantified, and so they aren't comparable with the (assumed) effects of either magic or cyber augmentation. In fact the suggestion that it might replace the Karma Pool means it specifically doesn't.

So you have no idea just how "especially useful" it is, to make a valid comparison - people are just assuming it is an equal balancer even when some playtesters have suggested it isn't.

Edge is just that, it's both luck and the knack of knowing how to turn a situation round in your favor. It's also a base Attribute, everyone has it, from the Street Sam to the Mage to the utter mundane. Some will have more of it, others will have less, but everybody should have it. As an attribute this means all it offers is a chance, it bends probabilities, but doesn't ensure success. This isn't directly comparable with the effects of most magic or cyber which offer concrete, quantifiable, fixed advantages and modifiers.
Ellery
QUOTE (Synner)
As an attribute this means all it offers is a chance, it bends probabilities, but doesn't ensure success. This isn't directly comparable with the effects of most magic or cyber which offer concrete, quantifiable, fixed advantages and modifiers.

So you're saying that most cyberware and magic doesn't provide modifiers to the dice pool? Don't forget--modifers to the dice pool bend probabilities but don't ensure success.

Maybe you mean that edge can be exhausted, whereas your smartlink can't.
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