 What if PCs could use Karma to increase Essense?, Reactions from people on the street. |
  Apr 13 2005, 10:04 PM
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#1
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263  |
PLEASE READ AND CONSIDER FOR AT LEAST 5 MINUTES BEFORE VOTING.
EDIT: Revised rough sketch of the idea, in point form (and assuming that ALL attributes really are capped hard & fast at 6). - An ultra-rich reseach benefactor, looking for a way to reduce this polution from Cyberzombies or whatever, funded a project where a million enlightened monkeys sitting in million shaman lodges came up with a new theory of Essense. - This Essense is now understood to be a mysterious energy generated by the body that allows it to deal with sapping away nerveous system energy into the MMI of cyberware. - The theory allows the development of a technique that allows you to bolster Essense. TRIDs of this quickly replace Power-Yoga at the top of bestsellers lists. - The International Unit for measuring Essense changes to double of what it was. So now metahumans all start with 3 because the dial can only go to, you know, 6. - The IU value has changed, but Magic is still influenced by old standards. So you have to double the Essense loss to calculated how much Magic is lost. Now up to 0.5 Essense lost means 1 point of Magic. Between 0.5 and 1.0 Essense loss means 2 points of Magic. - The Essense costs of base cyber gets seriously adjust to account for these new units of measure (as part of the rehash of Essense costs in SR4 make them roughly 60% of SR3 prices). - Manufacturing advancements drives the cost of Cyberware down drasticly. Like what was mentioned before reduce costs across the board for base cyber. Likely have Alpha somewhat lower than now, Beta about the same as current, and Delta costs higher, so increase the multipliers somewhat to fit that. - The new theory's influence spreads to medical fields. The new knowledge lets you pull out cyber and return the Essense, or make it available to new cyberware, a lot more easily. But still they aren't able to return lost Magic. - Not really part of this, but rethink the Essense costs of a number of the items. It is assumed that the effects of each cyber are getting a redo anyway to fit the new dice system. NOTE: I do see one problem with this, as we are shrinking the values used we run into more round-off issues when calculating the essense costs for higher grades of 'ware. That issues could be addressed by having essense go from 6 to 12, increasing Essense costs 20% and keeping magic loss as current, but that has it's own issues of perceptions. |
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Apr 13 2005, 10:12 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
I think this would introduce some serious balance issues....even more so than the "Little Olde Ladies of Death" mundane-lovers crutch called "edge".
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Apr 13 2005, 10:12 PM
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#3
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Jesus Freak Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,141 Joined: 23-April 04 From: Anaheim, CA Member No.: 6,274 |
Why do I need to take 5 minutes to think about if I want crack or not? I mean, its crack man! Of course I don't want it!
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Apr 13 2005, 10:18 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 25-February 05 Member No.: 7,119 |
Hmmm... okay, I've considered it. No, no, and heck no.
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Apr 13 2005, 10:18 PM
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#5
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,010 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Mmm, crack.
Crack good. Buyable Essence bad. ~J |
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Apr 13 2005, 10:21 PM
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#6
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
See, that's the thing. SR3 -has- a serious balance issue, awakened characters quickly outpace 'wared characters and never look back. The intention here is to help address that. |
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Apr 13 2005, 10:26 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Ok that's all well and good but this certainly isn't the way to do that. I personally don't see many balance issues in SR3. There are certainly different power levels which we would expect and desire...but as far as inherent bias towards awakened and cybered? I don't think so. It's all about managing the power level..not boosting one or nerfing the other. That is the communist way. |
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Apr 13 2005, 10:32 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 468 Joined: 17-March 05 Member No.: 7,185 |
Well hopefully the make it so that the power curves of mundane vs cyber vs awakened more closely resemble each other. The fact that once a cybered street monster can begin to upgrade his capabilites by throwing his additional karma at stuff like edge and other things once he meets his desired cyber + skill goals seems like it would go along way towards reducing that power gap between high end samurais and high end awakened. If you assume that other steps might be taken to either slow down awakened high end advancement that might make thier power curve more graduated then I'm not sure you need to go this route. Of course if you want to go further in terms of giving SR4 samurai greater upgradability you might think instead of changing the essence stat you could acchieve a similar effect by making the various forms of high end cyberware cheaper at the top end and maybe even "gasp" bring in stuff like epsilon grade cyberware or "cringe" make cyberzombies more practical as PCs. |
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Apr 13 2005, 10:35 PM
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#9
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
You DON'T see one in SR3, but you worry about an experienced character being able to increase cyberware/bioware over time as raising a balance issue? Pardon me, but I think you do owe me for the crack you've obviously bogartted. :P
Well yes, yes it is about managing. Karma throttling the use of 'ware over the life of character creation. I was thinking that this could help pace 'wared characters with mages without bringing out the Communist Party's offical Hammer & Sickle of Magic Neutering. |
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Apr 13 2005, 10:41 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Are you proposing this for SR4? It might be a tad to early to delve into this supposed "problem" since we don't even know if essense will a) be around, b) function remotely the same, or c) anything about cyberware/essense/magic or the rules in general. Am I wrong?
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Apr 13 2005, 10:44 PM
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#11
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Like I said, just another tool in the toolbox. Edge is going to help some, but my aim was about creating more flexibility in how it is done. *shrug* P.S. For messing around with 'ware grades and availibility to make any difference the rules regarding essense recovery/reuse need some serious attention. |
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Apr 13 2005, 10:44 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Yes I do, because then there is no ceiling so you would run into situations were a newcomer on the street has exactly ZERO chance against a sam with 12 essense worth of 'ware. Now he is more experienced, so should he be more powerful? Yes. But at the same time, we don't want to lose that lethality that is a huge part of the game, where you can still get capped by a street punk if your not careful. Lest this turn into a AD&D type situation where your built up sammie has no fear from "common" monsters/NPCs. The fear must always be near. |
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Apr 13 2005, 10:47 PM
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#13
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
No, no, no. Not too early, but perhaps too late! ;) Essense is definately still in, that has been mentioned here by people on the inside. Does it function differently and have a different influence on Magic? *shrug* Could it be open for possible chanages? I am supposing it could, thus my suggestion. |
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Apr 13 2005, 10:48 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
There isn't a problem with balance between cyber and adept in SR3.
There is, in fact, a problem with cyber plateauing out at various points, where they have MINIMAL opportunities to spend karma to improve -- because they've already done the stat thing, and have stats all at the RML or above, and they have a bunch of skills at 6-10.. The adept on the other hand, typically has a few skills at 6-10, and a bunch of grades of initiation and power from that.. but they can always save karma to initiate again. The Sam? Well, he can save to bring his pistols 6(10) up to 8(16)... or he can become the skills monkey of the group, able to do everything competantly (4's in everything).. As for deadliness? Depends on the characters. Just because the adept has 15 grades of initiate doesn't mean he can dodge and/or soak a couple of 8-16 successes at 11S or worse. (10 dice minimum at TN 2 before modifiers is very, very deadly. Even at TN 4-5 from modifiers, it's still deadly) Now... MAGES.. there's another problem entirely. I'd still put my Sam against them, but it's more likely to be twitchy bits of blackened metal than bloody carcass that was once magical. But, that problem exists between adepts and mages too. Sometimes more so. |
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Apr 13 2005, 10:50 PM
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#15
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Keep in mind that just raising Essense from 6 to 12, assuming the existing attribute raising formula of (Level + (Level-1) + ...+1)*2, would require several hundred karma. The equivalent of dozens of SR3 Initiate Grades. |
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Apr 13 2005, 10:54 PM
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#16
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Maybe, if you could fill in essence "holes" that way, I'd be somewhat okay with it (like, a character could regain an essence point he lost when it turned out his date was gonna suck his blood rather than his ... well, you get the idea).
But not above 6, never ever. You can regain essence with Karma (at twice the rate, minimum, that ordinary attribute raising costs!), but only if no cyber eats it up, and only to a maximum of 6. |
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Apr 13 2005, 10:55 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Then why is this relevant? |
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Apr 13 2005, 11:01 PM
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#18
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Generally Adepts are the red-headed stepchildren of the awakened, not an issue really. It is the spell casters that are the ones that become demigod like. Now it doesn't show up in all games because a GM can can do stuff outside of canon to screw over mages. But by the base rules (if you include MitS) mages simply have keep roling over time. I suppos it isn't so much a "balance" thing, as a stopping of growth of a non-awakened character...which leads to a balance issue. |
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Apr 13 2005, 11:02 PM
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#19
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
What "this" are you talking about? |
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Apr 13 2005, 11:14 PM
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#20
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
meh. under SR3, this idea is crackpipelicious. under SR4, who knows?
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Apr 13 2005, 11:19 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
And I did point out things that the non-awakened could do.. some of which will make them just as scary as a mage, in a specific niche...
I mean.. who would YOU put against the street sam that throws 16 dice before combat pool with smartlink modifiers? Especially with really high end inititiave boosting cyberware? |
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Apr 13 2005, 11:41 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093 |
Personally? A regenerating toxic fire-spirit possessed troll cyberzombie. But that's just me. I'm not to keen on the idea of purchasing essence beyond the base 6, SR3-wise. SR4, we'll just have to see. If I were to allow it, it would be extraordinarily expensive, karma-wise, and cap out at 6. Now, coming up with house-ruled in-game ways to return lost essence without buying it up like a stat you can improve with training, that I'm guilty of. |
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Apr 13 2005, 11:56 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Yes you are Sharaloth... you just made it a 'make these rolls or you blow up into little bits of bloody metal' case... 5 rerolls I think it was? 6 dice vs target 8, 8 dice vs target 11... and then a whole big mess of deciding how to respond to this massive internal war?
And.. that RTFSPTCZ was evil.. and the sam was only at 'throws 10 dice without trying' too..... I'm sure Damian still occassionally has nightmares about that thing. Shoot, I'm pretty sure the DRAGON has nightmares about that thing. It nearly killed him too. You'll probably come up with more painful if I DO bring him up to the 16 dice. |
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Apr 14 2005, 12:35 AM
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#24
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
In a face-to-face battle? Truthfully I'd take the 150ish Karma Grade 4 Initiate. It's a bitch shooting what you can't see, and if the sam ever saw the the mage he'd have to be the stupidest spelljockey to walk the streets of Seattle. Ring 7 and/or FAB III might start to even up the odds a bit. But those are unreliable at best, and ignore your 16 die. The sam's only hope is his own mage ally....which is my point. Unless the GM is dumbing down magic, after a certain point the firefights are mage vs. mage with mundane characters as a sideshow. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Apr 14 2005, 12:39 AM
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#25
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Guests |
Blaming this idea on crack is an insult to crack.
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