PLEASE READ AND CONSIDER FOR AT LEAST 5 MINUTES BEFORE VOTING.
EDIT: Revised rough sketch of the idea, in point form (and assuming that ALL attributes really are capped hard & fast at 6).
- An ultra-rich reseach benefactor, looking for a way to reduce this polution from Cyberzombies or whatever, funded a project where a million enlightened monkeys sitting in million shaman lodges came up with a new theory of Essense.
- This Essense is now understood to be a mysterious energy generated by the body that allows it to deal with sapping away nerveous system energy into the MMI of cyberware.
- The theory allows the development of a technique that allows you to bolster Essense. TRIDs of this quickly replace Power-Yoga at the top of bestsellers lists.
- The International Unit for measuring Essense changes to double of what it was. So now metahumans all start with 3 because the dial can only go to, you know, 6.
- The IU value has changed, but Magic is still influenced by old standards. So you have to double the Essense loss to calculated how much Magic is lost. Now up to 0.5 Essense lost means 1 point of Magic. Between 0.5 and 1.0 Essense loss means 2 points of Magic.
- The Essense costs of base cyber gets seriously adjust to account for these new units of measure (as part of the rehash of Essense costs in SR4 make them roughly 60% of SR3 prices).
- Manufacturing advancements drives the cost of Cyberware down drasticly. Like what was mentioned before reduce costs across the board for base cyber. Likely have Alpha somewhat lower than now, Beta about the same as current, and Delta costs higher, so increase the multipliers somewhat to fit that.
- The new theory's influence spreads to medical fields. The new knowledge lets you pull out cyber and return the Essense, or make it available to new cyberware, a lot more easily. But still they aren't able to return lost Magic.
- Not really part of this, but rethink the Essense costs of a number of the items. It is assumed that the effects of each cyber are getting a redo anyway to fit the new dice system.
NOTE: I do see one problem with this, as we are shrinking the values used we run into more round-off issues when calculating the essense costs for higher grades of 'ware. That issues could be addressed by having essense go from 6 to 12, increasing Essense costs 20% and keeping magic loss as current, but that has it's own issues of perceptions.
Full Version: What if PCs could use Karma to increase Essense?
I think this would introduce some serious balance issues....even more so than the "Little Olde Ladies of Death" mundane-lovers crutch called "edge".
Why do I need to take 5 minutes to think about if I want crack or not? I mean, its crack man! Of course I don't want it!
Hmmm... okay, I've considered it. No, no, and heck no.
Mmm, crack.
Crack good. Buyable Essence bad.
~J
Crack good. Buyable Essence bad.
~J
| QUOTE (Solstice @ Apr 13 2005, 04:12 PM) |
| I think this would introduce some serious balance issues....even more so than the "Little Olde Ladies of Death" mundane-lovers crutch called "edge". |
See, that's the thing. SR3 -has- a serious balance issue, awakened characters quickly outpace 'wared characters and never look back. The intention here is to help address that.
| QUOTE (blakkie @ Apr 13 2005, 05:21 PM) | ||
See, that's the thing. SR3 -has- a serious balance issue, awakened characters quickly outpace 'wared characters and never look back. The intention here is to help address that. |
Ok that's all well and good but this certainly isn't the way to do that. I personally don't see many balance issues in SR3. There are certainly different power levels which we would expect and desire...but as far as inherent bias towards awakened and cybered? I don't think so. It's all about managing the power level..not boosting one or nerfing the other. That is the communist way.
| QUOTE (blakkie) | ||
See, that's the thing. SR3 -has- a serious balance issue, awakened characters quickly outpace 'wared characters and never look back. The intention here is to help address that. |
Well hopefully the make it so that the power curves of mundane vs cyber vs awakened more closely resemble each other.
The fact that once a cybered street monster can begin to upgrade his capabilites by throwing his additional karma at stuff like edge and other things once he meets his desired cyber + skill goals seems like it would go along way towards reducing that power gap between high end samurais and high end awakened.
If you assume that other steps might be taken to either slow down awakened high end advancement that might make thier power curve more graduated then I'm not sure you need to go this route.
Of course if you want to go further in terms of giving SR4 samurai greater upgradability you might think instead of changing the essence stat you could acchieve a similar effect by making the various forms of high end cyberware cheaper at the top end and maybe even "gasp" bring in stuff like epsilon grade cyberware or "cringe" make cyberzombies more practical as PCs.
| QUOTE (Solstice) |
| ...I personally don't see many balance issues in SR3. There are certainly different power levels which we would expect and desire...but as far as inherent bias towards awakened and cybered? I don't think so. |
You DON'T see one in SR3, but you worry about an experienced character being able to increase cyberware/bioware over time as raising a balance issue? Pardon me, but I think you do owe me for the crack you've obviously bogartted.
| QUOTE |
| It's all about managing the power level..not boosting one or nerfing the other. That is the communist way. |
Well yes, yes it is about managing. Karma throttling the use of 'ware over the life of character creation. I was thinking that this could help pace 'wared characters with mages without bringing out the Communist Party's offical Hammer & Sickle of Magic Neutering.
Are you proposing this for SR4? It might be a tad to early to delve into this supposed "problem" since we don't even know if essense will a) be around, b) function remotely the same, or c) anything about cyberware/essense/magic or the rules in general. Am I wrong?
| QUOTE (Vuron) | ||||
Well hopefully the make it so that the power curves of mundane vs cyber vs awakened more closely resemble each other. The fact that once a cybered street monster can begin to upgrade his capabilites by throwing his additional karma at stuff like edge and other things once he meets his desired cyber + skill goals seems like it would go along way towards reducing that power gap between high end samurais and high end awakened. If you assume that other steps might be taken to either slow down awakened high end advancement that might make thier power curve more graduated then I'm not sure you need to go this route. Of course if you want to go further in terms of giving SR4 samurai greater upgradability you might think instead of changing the essence stat you could acchieve a similar effect by making the various forms of high end cyberware cheaper at the top end and maybe even "gasp" bring in stuff like epsilon grade cyberware or "cringe" make cyberzombies more practical as PCs. |
Like I said, just another tool in the toolbox. Edge is going to help some, but my aim was about creating more flexibility in how it is done. *shrug*
P.S. For messing around with 'ware grades and availibility to make any difference the rules regarding essense recovery/reuse need some serious attention.
| QUOTE (blakkie) | ||
You DON'T see one in SR3, but you worry about an experienced character being able to increase cyberware/bioware over time as raising a balance issue? Pardon me, but I think you do owe me for the crack you've obviously bogartted. |
Yes I do, because then there is no ceiling so you would run into situations were a newcomer on the street has exactly ZERO chance against a sam with 12 essense worth of 'ware. Now he is more experienced, so should he be more powerful? Yes. But at the same time, we don't want to lose that lethality that is a huge part of the game, where you can still get capped by a street punk if your not careful. Lest this turn into a AD&D type situation where your built up sammie has no fear from "common" monsters/NPCs. The fear must always be near.
| QUOTE (Solstice) |
| Are you proposing this for SR4? It might be a tad to early to delve into this supposed "problem" since we don't even know if essense will a) be around, b) function remotely the same, or c) anything about cyberware/essense/magic or the rules in general. Am I wrong? |
No, no, no. Not too early, but perhaps too late!
Essense is definately still in, that has been mentioned here by people on the inside. Does it function differently and have a different influence on Magic? *shrug* Could it be open for possible chanages? I am supposing it could, thus my suggestion.
There isn't a problem with balance between cyber and adept in SR3.
There is, in fact, a problem with cyber plateauing out at various points, where they have MINIMAL opportunities to spend karma to improve -- because they've already done the stat thing, and have stats all at the RML or above, and they have a bunch of skills at 6-10..
The adept on the other hand, typically has a few skills at 6-10, and a bunch of grades of initiation and power from that.. but they can always save karma to initiate again.
The Sam? Well, he can save to bring his pistols 6(10) up to 8(16)... or he can become the skills monkey of the group, able to do everything competantly (4's in everything)..
As for deadliness? Depends on the characters. Just because the adept has 15 grades of initiate doesn't mean he can dodge and/or soak a couple of 8-16 successes at 11S or worse. (10 dice minimum at TN 2 before modifiers is very, very deadly. Even at TN 4-5 from modifiers, it's still deadly)
Now... MAGES.. there's another problem entirely. I'd still put my Sam against them, but it's more likely to be twitchy bits of blackened metal than bloody carcass that was once magical. But, that problem exists between adepts and mages too. Sometimes more so.
There is, in fact, a problem with cyber plateauing out at various points, where they have MINIMAL opportunities to spend karma to improve -- because they've already done the stat thing, and have stats all at the RML or above, and they have a bunch of skills at 6-10..
The adept on the other hand, typically has a few skills at 6-10, and a bunch of grades of initiation and power from that.. but they can always save karma to initiate again.
The Sam? Well, he can save to bring his pistols 6(10) up to 8(16)... or he can become the skills monkey of the group, able to do everything competantly (4's in everything)..
As for deadliness? Depends on the characters. Just because the adept has 15 grades of initiate doesn't mean he can dodge and/or soak a couple of 8-16 successes at 11S or worse. (10 dice minimum at TN 2 before modifiers is very, very deadly. Even at TN 4-5 from modifiers, it's still deadly)
Now... MAGES.. there's another problem entirely. I'd still put my Sam against them, but it's more likely to be twitchy bits of blackened metal than bloody carcass that was once magical. But, that problem exists between adepts and mages too. Sometimes more so.
| QUOTE | ||
Yes I do, because then there is no ceiling so you would run into situations were a newcomer on the street has exactly ZERO chance against a sam with 12 essense worth of 'ware. Now he is more experienced, so should he be more powerful? Yes. But at the same time, we don't want to lose that lethality that is a huge part of the game, where you can still get capped by a street punk if your not careful. Lest this turn into a AD&D type situation where your built up sammie has no fear from "common" monsters/NPCs. The fear must always be near. |
Keep in mind that just raising Essense from 6 to 12, assuming the existing attribute raising formula of (Level + (Level-1) + ...+1)*2, would require several hundred karma. The equivalent of dozens of SR3 Initiate Grades.
Maybe, if you could fill in essence "holes" that way, I'd be somewhat okay with it (like, a character could regain an essence point he lost when it turned out his date was gonna suck his blood rather than his ... well, you get the idea).
But not above 6, never ever. You can regain essence with Karma (at twice the rate, minimum, that ordinary attribute raising costs!), but only if no cyber eats it up, and only to a maximum of 6.
But not above 6, never ever. You can regain essence with Karma (at twice the rate, minimum, that ordinary attribute raising costs!), but only if no cyber eats it up, and only to a maximum of 6.
| QUOTE (blakkie) | ||||
Keep in mind that just raising Essense from 6 to 12..would require several hundred karma. The equivalent of dozens of SR3 Initiate Grades. |
Then why is this relevant?
| QUOTE (Dawnshadow) |
| Now... MAGES.. there's another problem entirely. I'd still put my Sam against them, but it's more likely to be twitchy bits of blackened metal than bloody carcass that was once magical. But, that problem exists between adepts and mages too. Sometimes more so. |
Generally Adepts are the red-headed stepchildren of the awakened, not an issue really. It is the spell casters that are the ones that become demigod like. Now it doesn't show up in all games because a GM can can do stuff outside of canon to screw over mages. But by the base rules (if you include MitS) mages simply have keep roling over time.
I suppos it isn't so much a "balance" thing, as a stopping of growth of a non-awakened character...which leads to a balance issue.
| QUOTE (Solstice) |
| Then why is this relevant? |
What "this" are you talking about?
meh. under SR3, this idea is crackpipelicious. under SR4, who knows?
And I did point out things that the non-awakened could do.. some of which will make them just as scary as a mage, in a specific niche...
I mean.. who would YOU put against the street sam that throws 16 dice before combat pool with smartlink modifiers? Especially with really high end inititiave boosting cyberware?
I mean.. who would YOU put against the street sam that throws 16 dice before combat pool with smartlink modifiers? Especially with really high end inititiave boosting cyberware?
| QUOTE (Dawnshadow) |
| I mean.. who would YOU put against the street sam that throws 16 dice before combat pool with smartlink modifiers? Especially with really high end inititiave boosting cyberware? |
Personally? A regenerating toxic fire-spirit possessed troll cyberzombie. But that's just me.
I'm not to keen on the idea of purchasing essence beyond the base 6, SR3-wise. SR4, we'll just have to see. If I were to allow it, it would be extraordinarily expensive, karma-wise, and cap out at 6. Now, coming up with house-ruled in-game ways to return lost essence without buying it up like a stat you can improve with training, that I'm guilty of.
Yes you are Sharaloth... you just made it a 'make these rolls or you blow up into little bits of bloody metal' case... 5 rerolls I think it was? 6 dice vs target 8, 8 dice vs target 11... and then a whole big mess of deciding how to respond to this massive internal war?
And.. that RTFSPTCZ was evil.. and the sam was only at 'throws 10 dice without trying' too..... I'm sure Damian still occassionally has nightmares about that thing. Shoot, I'm pretty sure the DRAGON has nightmares about that thing. It nearly killed him too. You'll probably come up with more painful if I DO bring him up to the 16 dice.
And.. that RTFSPTCZ was evil.. and the sam was only at 'throws 10 dice without trying' too..... I'm sure Damian still occassionally has nightmares about that thing. Shoot, I'm pretty sure the DRAGON has nightmares about that thing. It nearly killed him too. You'll probably come up with more painful if I DO bring him up to the 16 dice.
| QUOTE (Dawnshadow) |
| And I did point out things that the non-awakened could do.. some of which will make them just as scary as a mage, in a specific niche... I mean.. who would YOU put against the street sam that throws 16 dice before combat pool with smartlink modifiers? Especially with really high end inititiave boosting cyberware? |
In a face-to-face battle? Truthfully I'd take the 150ish Karma Grade 4 Initiate. It's a bitch shooting what you can't see, and if the sam ever saw the the mage he'd have to be the stupidest spelljockey to walk the streets of Seattle. Ring 7 and/or FAB III might start to even up the odds a bit. But those are unreliable at best, and ignore your 16 die. The sam's only hope is his own mage ally....which is my point. Unless the GM is dumbing down magic, after a certain point the firefights are mage vs. mage with mundane characters as a sideshow.
Blaming this idea on crack is an insult to crack.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| meh. under SR3, this idea is crackpipelicious. under SR4, who knows? |
Well this assumes SR4 of course, and there needs to be some adjustments surrounding it.
I didn't really consider about it one way or another whether you'd cap the post-cyberware Essense at 6. In SR3 as written the only time an Essense over 6 would have an influence is the TN for Heal/Treat, and that particular use for calculating the TN is going away with SR4 (although it might still be used somehow in those spells).
P.S. Remember that there are creatures in SR right now that have Essense higher than 6. Essense 6 was an abitrary number created in the rules to limit metahuman cyberware....which was then promptly broken by cyberzombies.
I'm not sure why people are having such a knee-jerk reaction against raising Essence like an attribute. Why, specifically, would it be so terrible? The ability to raise Essence would be a good way to balance mages getting lots of cyber, because at that point raising Essence wouldn't raise Magic, and cyber implantation would still cause Magic loss. It wouldn't make the sam any more powerful at really high karma levels than the high-Grade Initiate (Grade 6-7 initiate would be approximately the Attribute-equivalent of the Essence 12 cybersam, except the cybersam also spent millions of nuyen on 'ware which the mage spent on foci). It would, however, give the sam the same sort of "infinite advancement potential" that adepts and mages have under the current system.
So, what's the problem?
So, what's the problem?
The problem is game balance. I've tried this under all 3 Shadowrun incarnations, and I've never been able to create an awakened starting character with the firepower and toughness of a well-designed 1 million 
street samurai. I've been able to create super-specialists that exceed him in certain areas; but in the overall picture, sams start out much more powerful than the awakened.
Now, this of course evens out as the game progresses. Mages and Adepts become progressively more powerful, while the cyber-types plateau out eventually. But that's all part of the balance of the game. The price you pay for being cybered is that you'll soon hit the limit of flesh and blood.
street samurai. I've been able to create super-specialists that exceed him in certain areas; but in the overall picture, sams start out much more powerful than the awakened. Now, this of course evens out as the game progresses. Mages and Adepts become progressively more powerful, while the cyber-types plateau out eventually. But that's all part of the balance of the game. The price you pay for being cybered is that you'll soon hit the limit of flesh and blood.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| The problem is game balance. I've tried this under all 3 Shadowrun incarnations, and I've never been able to create an awakened starting character with the firepower and toughness of a well-designed 1 million street samurai. I've been able to create super-specialists that exceed him in certain areas; but in the overall picture, sams start out much more powerful than the awakened. Now, this of course evens out as the game progresses. Mages and Adepts become progressively more powerful, while the cyber-types plateau out eventually. But that's all part of the balance of the game. The price you pay for being cybered is that you'll soon hit the limit of flesh and blood. |
Exactly what I was getting at suggesting the small bump essense cost for cyber. This curbs the starting cyberware sam, but with the room from essense growth the sam can progress through cyber at a pace at least closer to that of the mage.
As far as we know, under SR4 rules, no Attribute will be able to be higher than 6 (plus any applicable racial modifiers). Why should Essence be any different? If you really have a problem with balance, introducing new and more Essence-friendly cyber should do the trick nicely.
I voted for the crack-ho!
I voted for the crack-ho!
Well, while we're talking about cyber balance....
I think that most cyberware (and drones, and electronics gear, and whatever the new hackers use for illegal utilities) should be drastically reduced in cost.
Then, the range of starting money should be correspondingly contracted so that characters can have an equivalent (to SR3 levels) amount of cyberware, illegal utilities, drones, etc.
In SR4, they're bringing starting character attribute and skill levels away from the "elite" level they currently occupy. It doesn't make sense for a starting shadowrunner to have ware crammed into their body that would pay for a permanent High lifestyle.
I'm against reducing the competency of starting characters, so the best solution is to reduce the relative cost of the 'ware.
It also makes all those gangers with implanted cyberweaponry actually make some sense, and gives the GM a little more freedom for light cybering of security and police forces without the PCs complaining about the economics.
Good for the game in many ways, as far as I can see.
I think that most cyberware (and drones, and electronics gear, and whatever the new hackers use for illegal utilities) should be drastically reduced in cost.
Then, the range of starting money should be correspondingly contracted so that characters can have an equivalent (to SR3 levels) amount of cyberware, illegal utilities, drones, etc.
In SR4, they're bringing starting character attribute and skill levels away from the "elite" level they currently occupy. It doesn't make sense for a starting shadowrunner to have ware crammed into their body that would pay for a permanent High lifestyle.
I'm against reducing the competency of starting characters, so the best solution is to reduce the relative cost of the 'ware.
It also makes all those gangers with implanted cyberweaponry actually make some sense, and gives the GM a little more freedom for light cybering of security and police forces without the PCs complaining about the economics.
Good for the game in many ways, as far as I can see.
Ya, with another throttle besides that spread out cyberware implants over the career of a character you could lower the equipment costs without having them go nuts during character creation.
that spread out cyberware implants over the career of a character you could lower the equipment costs without having them go nuts during character creation.| QUOTE |
| As far as we know, under SR4 rules, no Attribute will be able to be higher than 6 (plus any applicable racial modifiers). Why should Essence be any different? If you really have a problem with balance, introducing new and more Essence-friendly cyber should do the trick nicely. |
If that is the case, then why start Essense out at 6 automatically? Nothing else is doing that now it would seem. Further having anything over a 3 is limited at character creation and generally expensive.
Most likely because Essence isn't a usable Attribute as much as it is a limitation, much like in SR3. Hell, we don't even know if it is an Attribute at all. Although Jon said it was in another thread, he also said that Initiative was an Attribute. I wonder if that can be 'bought up' with Karma. 
I want it! Adepts can buy power points, why can't mundanes buy essence?
No way. Picture this.
Mage wires 3, smartlink, Muscle rep, and full use of magic.
Oh give them a VCR and and killer deck as well.
Here we go 1 man shadowrun team.
Oh yeah I actually tried this several years ago it doesn't work.
Mage wires 3, smartlink, Muscle rep, and full use of magic.
Oh give them a VCR and and killer deck as well.
Here we go 1 man shadowrun team.
Oh yeah I actually tried this several years ago it doesn't work.
Even if we ignore the game balance issues pointed out above, this would also invalidate major chunks of setting. Even though there's a debate about what essence is, the implant designers and the surgeons know that you can only implant so much chrome before you kill someone. That's the whole reason behind the creation of cyberzombies, for instance. If someone could get an implant, and the essence impact of the implant were to get smaller as time goes on, cyberzombies suddenly don't make a whole lot of sense when you weigh the drawbacks of being a cyberzombie against the drawbacks of just giving the patient's body time to adjust to each individual implant before putting in the next.
In short, this sort of change would be like the 2nd-to-3rd edition transition's "Ordinary plants can't block an astral body like the previous editions suggested, they have to be dual natured to do so" only magnified 10 or so.
In short, this sort of change would be like the 2nd-to-3rd edition transition's "Ordinary plants can't block an astral body like the previous editions suggested, they have to be dual natured to do so" only magnified 10 or so.
Blablabla in-game-logic blabla
More power to the mundanes! So: only available to mundanes!
Yes, i'm not dead serious about it. I like the idea but heavily doubt that it ever will happen.
More power to the mundanes! So: only available to mundanes!
Yes, i'm not dead serious about it.
I like the idea but heavily doubt that it ever will happen.
| QUOTE (NightHaunter @ Apr 14 2005, 05:43 AM) |
| No way. Picture this. Mage wires 3, smartlink, Muscle rep, and full use of magic. Oh give them a VCR and and killer deck as well. Here we go 1 man shadowrun team. Oh yeah I actually tried this several years ago it doesn't work. |
As was pointed out numerous times in other threads, SR3 already lets a mage cyber up till his happysack clinks when he walks. He has to geas like crazy and Initiate new points of magic to regain some semblance of magic power.
I'm NOT suggesting adding cyberware means no magic loss. You still lose magic in the same manner. If your mage pushed his Essense up (remember Magic is nolonger tied to Essense in anyway, in SR3 it was only nominally linked anyhow) to make more room for cyberware the Magic he lost from cyberware stays lost.
EDIT: @ RunnerPaul - There is still a place for Cyberzombies (and if you want to talk about "invalidating a setting feature" you need to look no further than them). If attributes are capped hard at 6 (will Magic be?) then an even better solution might be to buy up Essense from whatever the character starts at (normally 3). Even without that Cyberzombies become Karma shortcuts, going way past your Essense once it become prohibitiedly expensive via the Cyberzombie candidate's own Karma.
I seem to be only one of two who answered, yes.
The whole concept of essense is cocked and lacking in internal consistency. The closest thing I can imagine it to be is a power-source-thingie for your aura/persona-thingie.
a) A child is born with cataracts and thus blind from birth. Does removing the catacts affect the child's essence as it has gained a new sense.
b) A man is short-sighted and needs corrective techology, at what point does essense loss start? With glasses, contact lenses, laser surgery, or simply cyber-eyes; why?
c) A person loses all/some movement in their legs, why does a peg leg cost essense(CyberPirates) but not a wheel chair or walking stick?
d) A person is hard of hearing why does the hearing aid, which is essential to interpret sound affect this "essense" when it is moved from outside to the inside of the ear.
I want essence to be a stat with a ceiling of 6 just like the attributes. I don't have anything like the body I had when I was 5, not even the same atoms, so why does it matter so much when part of me changes from a collection of mostly hydrogen/oxygen/carbon to metals and longer carbon chains.
Your aura is you, you are your aura, but rapid changes (cyberware, etc) cause a separation. No adult in shadowrun has the aura of a baby. So yeah, cyber damages your essence and thus your aura/soul is weakened because your abstract concept of self had diverged dramatically and suddenly from your physical actuality causing a spiritual disassociation.
Edited to finish the point
So if you spend time (karma) focusing on settling into your new form the spiritual disassociation is reduced, just like aging does not effect essence. This can be carried further and the introduction of essence loss for the removal/loss of body parts becomes game-balancable with essence that can be restored.
The whole concept of essense is cocked and lacking in internal consistency. The closest thing I can imagine it to be is a power-source-thingie for your aura/persona-thingie.
a) A child is born with cataracts and thus blind from birth. Does removing the catacts affect the child's essence as it has gained a new sense.
b) A man is short-sighted and needs corrective techology, at what point does essense loss start? With glasses, contact lenses, laser surgery, or simply cyber-eyes; why?
c) A person loses all/some movement in their legs, why does a peg leg cost essense(CyberPirates) but not a wheel chair or walking stick?
d) A person is hard of hearing why does the hearing aid, which is essential to interpret sound affect this "essense" when it is moved from outside to the inside of the ear.
I want essence to be a stat with a ceiling of 6 just like the attributes. I don't have anything like the body I had when I was 5, not even the same atoms, so why does it matter so much when part of me changes from a collection of mostly hydrogen/oxygen/carbon to metals and longer carbon chains.
Your aura is you, you are your aura, but rapid changes (cyberware, etc) cause a separation. No adult in shadowrun has the aura of a baby. So yeah, cyber damages your essence and thus your aura/soul is weakened because your abstract concept of self had diverged dramatically and suddenly from your physical actuality causing a spiritual disassociation.
Edited to finish the point
So if you spend time (karma) focusing on settling into your new form the spiritual disassociation is reduced, just like aging does not effect essence. This can be carried further and the introduction of essence loss for the removal/loss of body parts becomes game-balancable with essence that can be restored.
I voted for the crack.
I can certainly see it being seriously unbalancing, no question about it. But I would set it up so its more pricey than initiating. It would be very, very unusual to see someone with more than 8 essence, and those are the experienced people. (Keep in mind, the price would be based off of your essence not counting cyber. So the wired to the max sam is paying just as much as the adept.) A mage wouldn't want to use it because, unless he's level 14 initiate (which means he's already pretty god-like), it's simply not worth the cost in karma. It saves him from losing a magic point in the future. No metamagic, costs more karma, etc.
As has been said over and over again, until my brain bleeds, mundanes really don't have reasonable places to put their karma. Assault rifles 16 really isn't a huge improvement over assault rifles 15, but it costs how much karma? Whereas the mage, for that amount of karma, is learning his new level 10 spell (yay for quests to the astral planes) and working on his new initiation where he learns how to divine the future.
I can certainly see it being seriously unbalancing, no question about it. But I would set it up so its more pricey than initiating. It would be very, very unusual to see someone with more than 8 essence, and those are the experienced people. (Keep in mind, the price would be based off of your essence not counting cyber. So the wired to the max sam is paying just as much as the adept.) A mage wouldn't want to use it because, unless he's level 14 initiate (which means he's already pretty god-like), it's simply not worth the cost in karma. It saves him from losing a magic point in the future. No metamagic, costs more karma, etc.
As has been said over and over again, until my brain bleeds, mundanes really don't have reasonable places to put their karma. Assault rifles 16 really isn't a huge improvement over assault rifles 15, but it costs how much karma? Whereas the mage, for that amount of karma, is learning his new level 10 spell (yay for quests to the astral planes) and working on his new initiation where he learns how to divine the future.
How much karma do your mundanes have to spend, anyway? Between all the combat skills, all the electronics skills, all the intimidation skills, etc., there are lots of places to usefully spend karma. And with knowledge skills and the like, there are lots of places to spend karma for flavor, too.
If you don't want to have any diversity in your skillset, then yeah, it gets hard after a while to keep improving the same thing. That shouldn't be a surprise--sounds like a feature to me.
If you don't want to have any diversity in your skillset, then yeah, it gets hard after a while to keep improving the same thing. That shouldn't be a surprise--sounds like a feature to me.
| QUOTE (Botch @ Apr 14 2005, 07:14 AM) |
| I seem to be only one of two who answered, yes. |
Up to three now.
I'm actually rather encouraged by less than 80% flatout rejecting the idea. I didn't vote "Yes" myself because the idea never really occured to me till about 15 minutes before i posted. Call it a moment of crack induced clarity. *shrug* So the idea wasn't really that well explained. You can see over time that the votes have slowly eased away from the extreme rejection.| QUOTE |
| The whole concept of essense is cocked and lacking in internal consistency. |
Most certainly. Given how ill defined essense is to begin with (amazing given how influential it is in the game) 5 game years of research could easily be used to explain a somewhat flexible Essense. In point form (and assuming that ALL attributes really are capped hard & fast at 6).
- An ultra-rich reseach benefactor, looking for a way to reduce this polution from Cyberzombies or whatever, funded a project where a million enlightened monkeys sitting in million shaman lodges came up with a new theory of Essense.
- This Essense is now understood to be a mysterious energy generated by the body that allows it to deal with sapping away nerveous system energy into the MMI of cyberware.
- The theory allows the development of a technique that allows you to bolster Essense. TRIDs of this quickly replace Power-Yoga at the top of bestsellers lists.
- The International Unit for measuring Essense changes to double of what it was. So now metahumans all start with 3 because the dial can only go to, you know, 6.
EDIT: - The IU value has changed, but Magic is still influenced by old standards. So you have to double the Essense loss to calculated how much Magic is lost. Now up to 0.5 Essense lost means 1 point of Magic. Between 0.5 and 1.0 Essense loss means 2 points of Magic.
- The Essense costs of base cyber gets seriously adjust to account for these new units of measure (as part of the rehash of Essense costs in SR4 make them roughly 60% of SR3 prices).
EDIT: - Manufacturing advancements drives the cost of Cyberware down drasticly. Like what was mentioned before reduce
costs across the board for base cyber. Likely keep Alpha/Beta/Delta costs up, so increase the multiplies somewhat.EDIT: - The new theory's influence spreads to medical fields. The new knowledge lets you pull out cyber and return the Essense, or make it available to new cyberware, a lot more easily. But still they aren't able to return lost Magic.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| If you really have a problem with balance, introducing new and more Essence-friendly cyber should do the trick nicely. |
The problem with this idea is any time you make 'ware more Essence-friendly you really are just making it easier and easier for Awakened characters to take more syber as well. Look what happenned when the errata for bioware came out; suddenly every adept had enhanced articulation, reflex recorders and symbiotes, and every mage took a trauma dampener, a mnemonic enhancer and a cerebral booster.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) | ||
The problem with this idea is any time you make 'ware more Essence-friendly you really are just making it easier and easier for Awakened characters to take more syber as well. Look what happenned when the errata for bioware came out; suddenly every adept had enhanced articulation, reflex recorders and symbiotes, and every mage took a trauma dampener, a mnemonic enhancer and a cerebral booster. |
Good point. Let me add an extra point to my post above to account for that.
| QUOTE (Ellery) |
| If you don't want to have any diversity in your skillset, then yeah, it gets hard after a while to keep improving the same thing. That shouldn't be a surprise--sounds like a feature to me. |
Except for the mage/adept, who can initiate as well as spend karma on skills. With more places to spend karma you can get some great deals; you can initiate three times with the same amount of Karma the sam used to upgrade his Pistols skill from 13 to 14. Which one of those is more useful?
Well I think certain cyberware that should be extremely useful and commonplace that currently has crazy essence costs should be significantly revised (uhh can you say radios? )
Further I think that there should be so readjustments of really peachy keen things that become mandatory for adepts to have higher relative essence costs (enhanced articulation).
I'd say that one thing that should definitely be examined if the essence recovery and upgrade process. It should be possible for a street samurai to trade in his used smartlink when he can afford it to a standard on up.
Maybe another way to balance it would be to offer individual components upgrades in ways other than decreased essence costs.
Let's say the base smartlink offers a set benefit but when you want to upgrade it to whiz bang level you not only get decreased essence cost but more useful effects. For alot of cyberware this really isn't going to be neccesary (woot i just upgraded my cyber cellphone and got these cool new features) but it would allow more a different sort of upgrade path than just trying to pack the most cyberware you can into a 6 essence body.
)Further I think that there should be so readjustments of really peachy keen things that become mandatory for adepts to have higher relative essence costs (enhanced articulation).
I'd say that one thing that should definitely be examined if the essence recovery and upgrade process. It should be possible for a street samurai to trade in his used smartlink when he can afford it to a standard on up.
Maybe another way to balance it would be to offer individual components upgrades in ways other than decreased essence costs.
Let's say the base smartlink offers a set benefit but when you want to upgrade it to whiz bang level you not only get decreased essence cost but more useful effects. For alot of cyberware this really isn't going to be neccesary (woot i just upgraded my cyber cellphone and got these cool new features) but it would allow more a different sort of upgrade path than just trying to pack the most cyberware you can into a 6 essence body.
| QUOTE (Ellery) |
| How much karma do your mundanes have to spend, anyway? Between all the combat skills, all the electronics skills, all the intimidation skills, etc., there are lots of places to usefully spend karma. And with knowledge skills and the like, there are lots of places to spend karma for flavor, too. |
Yes, my mundies are really excited about their new 'wine-tasting' skill.
I have relatively new characters sitting on about 20 karma and wondering what to do with it. Most of my street sams excel in a number of different areas, then begin putting their karma towards making their own business!! I actually have a ripper doc in one game, which is fine good, except we're not playing Monopoly.
If someone makes a street sam, there are usually 3 to 6 skills they're really interested in. It's not like they CAN'T take negotiations, but why would they want to get it past 3 anyway? That's what the face is for, and the player doesn't like playing that sort of character. So once he gets 8 in assault rifles, pistols, unarmed and stealth, he starts to feel like his character is stagnating, while the mages are learning at least two new spells at the end of every mission.
No, lowering the price of cyber will not help, as stated. That just makes it easier for mages to get more uber. If it weren't for geas, it'd be a different story. In fact, if it weren't for geas, this problem in general would be significantly lessened.
If you're playing a game where the mundanes have gotten that powerful, and you aren't making more skills useful, then the mundanes have a right to feel like they're stagnating.
If, on the other hand, you're playing a game where skills are useful then they mundane will never feel stagnation. He/she/it may feel like the maximum power is capped, but not stagnated.
Beyond that, I like 10 more than 8 for skills -- and the training rules should be scrapped at high skill levels, since you reach a point and you're developing your own style more than learning someone else's.
If, on the other hand, you're playing a game where skills are useful then they mundane will never feel stagnation. He/she/it may feel like the maximum power is capped, but not stagnated.
Beyond that, I like 10 more than 8 for skills -- and the training rules should be scrapped at high skill levels, since you reach a point and you're developing your own style more than learning someone else's.
As I said, these are fairly young characters. Well below 100 karma. The reason why so many skills aren't useful is because they have a team. The sam doesn't need to learn etiquette because the face does that. He can get it up to 3, but anything past that is really just a waste. Same with electronics. Same with computers. And since he can only use 1 weapon at a time, same with more than half of the weapon skills.
Example, we have a team of 5 (which is the smallest of my teams).
The sam has some karma he's sitting on. He can:
Wait a little longer and add it to his favored weapon skill (and we all know the super benefit going from 10 to 11 in a skill brings).
Put it into a new weapon skill he isn't likely to use
Put it into a skill someone else has at a much higher rating
Put it into something off-the-wall. Sailboating. Suborbital b/r
None really look terrific.
Lets look at the mage.
He can do ALL that PLUS:
Initiate and gain a metamagic
Learn fireball 6 or one of the bajillion other super-useful spells
Create a familiar
Bond to some uber piece of gear (since he doesn't have a ton to spend money on)
Any of those look better than anything available to the sam.
Plus, I have as of yet to see anyone add a piece of cyberware in-game. I've been playing for almost a decade, and no one has *EVER* bought cyber. I'd like to see someone go under the knife for once.
Perhaps I'm not letting them 'use skills'. But I run the combat the same way as probably anyone else. The only skill I've really tried to dump is electronics vs. electronics b/r. And this seems to be the difficult my sams are having. (Riggers and deckers don't seem to share their difficulties, and faces generally drop out too early to care).
Example, we have a team of 5 (which is the smallest of my teams).
The sam has some karma he's sitting on. He can:
Wait a little longer and add it to his favored weapon skill (and we all know the super benefit going from 10 to 11 in a skill brings).
Put it into a new weapon skill he isn't likely to use
Put it into a skill someone else has at a much higher rating
Put it into something off-the-wall. Sailboating. Suborbital b/r
None really look terrific.
Lets look at the mage.
He can do ALL that PLUS:
Initiate and gain a metamagic
Learn fireball 6 or one of the bajillion other super-useful spells
Create a familiar
Bond to some uber piece of gear (since he doesn't have a ton to spend money on)
Any of those look better than anything available to the sam.
Plus, I have as of yet to see anyone add a piece of cyberware in-game. I've been playing for almost a decade, and no one has *EVER* bought cyber. I'd like to see someone go under the knife for once.
Perhaps I'm not letting them 'use skills'. But I run the combat the same way as probably anyone else. The only skill I've really tried to dump is electronics vs. electronics b/r. And this seems to be the difficult my sams are having. (Riggers and deckers don't seem to share their difficulties, and faces generally drop out too early to care).
Since when is someone else having a skill a reason to not take it? Does everyone just call up the face when they need something off the street? Do they get sent places that they all have to socialize? I mean.. my group is in a really strangely structured game, permanently employed be someone, who does most of the negotiations himself.. but we do have to do some of the stuff ourselves. My charisma 3 Street Sam was the one approached for a major job.. he did a lot of the initial discussion and prep stuff for it himself, then let his boss take over for the final details (like, talking them into a little more nuyen).
Likewise: If I put skills into something really off the wall, I expect them to either be useful in the future (I know we're going to be on a ship, so I take a ship skill), because they make sense for the character (multiple weapon skills -- because he has had to grab weapons he didn't know how to use before. Usually when he's already in trouble.)
I think the major problem is that your group seems to pigeonhole skills, so that other than weapons, it's only one person that needs skills. I've never encountered that really in my group. They sometimes help each other out getting things, but a lot of their stuff is individually done too..
Likewise: If I put skills into something really off the wall, I expect them to either be useful in the future (I know we're going to be on a ship, so I take a ship skill), because they make sense for the character (multiple weapon skills -- because he has had to grab weapons he didn't know how to use before. Usually when he's already in trouble.)
I think the major problem is that your group seems to pigeonhole skills, so that other than weapons, it's only one person that needs skills. I've never encountered that really in my group. They sometimes help each other out getting things, but a lot of their stuff is individually done too..
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