For a long time, I thought that the essence mechanic worked in favor of awakened characters because it hard-capped the amount of cyberware a sam can install, while the awakened can almost always find a way to increase their power. I thought about dropping the rule "0 essence = you're dead" from my game while keeping all other drawbacks of having low essence and making awakened automatically become mundane at essence = 0, but I never really did. That would simply be too unbalancing.

So where I'm at right now is I'm thinking about going the other way and curbing the increase of power in awakened characters somehow. A sanity rating would be kind of nice for the games I usually run... as awakened characters gain more and more knowledge/understanding, they slowly begin to move away from the rest of metahumanity and to their own little happy place.

But I'll probably never do that either. Just muse about the idea until somebody comes up with something that really works. Until then, I play it by the books.

Ellery, it's about the options.

Mages can go off and learn skills too, OR they can go down the casting path, or do a mix of both.

But in practice Cyber caps and stagnates in SR3, often right at the point of character creation. The mechanics just seem to drive it there. Do GM and player choices that aid in this? Why yes, I'm sure they do. But the system still seems to guide them down the path because it happens a LOT.

Mages diversify at the expense of improving their magical abilities. There's nothing stopping a Sam from not only increasing a bunch of Weapon skills, but diversifying across the board, learning something about Computers, Biotech, Electronics, Vehicle skills, B/R skills, a wide variety of Social skills, and even another Martial Arts technique (or pick up extra Maneuvers on top of the normal limit for 8 Karma a pop). That isn't even covering Knowledge skills.

Cyber just makes them better at what they do. It's the skills that allow them to do stuff in the first place. Therefore, in my opinion it is the Skills that are their bread and butter, not the cyber.

I have no problem with them getting better cyber/bio. Upgrades are always a viable option.

I have a problem with increasing Essence. I don't really even have a problem with them getting Essence back (ie filling the essence hole).

Essence is most definitely linked to Magic though. If you allow a character to raise their Essence, there is no logical reason to deny a mage that does so a corresponding increase in Magic.

Huh? A lot of people have a real problem with over-powered mages... In the games I've played, the GM actually made it a little easier for mages than the rules allowed: lower karma cost for spells (automatic success at low rating astral quests), lower target numbers to learn spells (spend full time for a spell with force < magic rating), no virtual reduction in magic attribute for cultured bioware (this really helps adepts a lot), and automatic maximum effect of healing spells (provided to spend the full time before rolling). In our games, even at 300 karma points, the rigger saved the party at least once per game session with his use of heavy weapons, or driving us out of danger, and the adepts used conventional weapons quite often to dispose of enemy mages (grenades and automatic weapons are still very effective against most mages, especially when they've dedicated their sorcery dice to spell defense against party mages or are having their sorcery thwarted by the party's spell defense.)

As for buying essense with karma, under current rules, I'd like to see the possibility of using karma to buy back essense lost to serious injury, essense draining, and removed cyber. I could also see some merit in someone undergoing significant therapy (anything from physical and psychological therapy to spiritual counseling or magical ritual) to achieve a similar effect of upgrading cyberware grade (still to a maximum of delta, but with significant karma cost instead of cash cost). But that's just me, I like playing awakened characters, but was always annoyed that I needed to wait until I had a couple hundred karma before I could even make initiative or reaction rolls in the same ball field of a newly created street sam or adept.

Just my two cents, thanks for bringing up some fond memories.
S'Ren a.k.a. THE Uber-mage...

lol omg roflmao only stupid people r sane !!!!11

I know i'm belonging to a minority. Guess i have to start converting you and all the other unenlightened

I know that it surely won't happen that the developers got the same point of view. I just wanted to make my point clear

Personally, I think they deserve to stagnate if they come up with a character concept that DOESN'T involve growth potential.

That being said, that quite clearly highlights what I've been saying -- you're playing a game where you've got things restricted right down to the core of what a Street Sam can do. If your players want to restrict it 'I like shooting people', fine. They don't have the potential to grow and use karma beyond a certain point.

Restricting Street Sams like that is like mages deciding that once they have masking, centering and shielding, every combat spell, the major elemental manipulations, heal, armour, barrier, and a few other little spells, that they're not going to branch out into more stuff.

You see Street Sam players do it all the time-- you don't see mages doing it. Why? Because GMs and storylines TEND TO FAVOUR mages and magical advancement, but don't favour the improvements Street Sams make.

([/RANT])

If they don't like playing a character that can develop into more areas then 'I kill things with assault rifles'..

The Street Sam is NOT : 1 weapon, a few skills, some cyberware.
The Street Sam is: Cyberware, weapons, skills -- and versatile.

Your players seem to like making limitted Street Sams. Fine. It's their problem if they don't have advancement potential that they're satisfied with.


To illustrate my point further...

If you had a mage who wanted no other skills because 'everyone else has them at higher', no new spells 'I've got treat, manabolt, stunbolt, powerbolt, powerball, manaball, stunball, armour, barrier, and lightning bolt, what more do I need', no more initiation.. 'masking, centering and shielding are all you need'.. Would you honestly think mages need more stuff to spend karma on?

Mages have the spotlight because people always think about how they can use magic to do anything.

Street Sams are SKILLS with cyber augmentations. So, they should USE skills. Skills SHOULD BE their major focus, with a minor on attributes.

I think what I've tended to see as the core argument about power scaling on awakened is this.

After a certain threshhold augmented mundanes reach a plateau within thier designated role and they have to begin moving towards buying other skills to be versatile in a wide variety of roles.

On the other hand awakened characters are far more open ended in thier advancement within thier area of specialization. With magic not having an inherent barrier of 6 essence you can reasonable expect for mages to eventually eclipse the combined power of all the mundanes in any given group.

Now within the novels there is certainly a place for truly potent characters that tend to overwhelm all mundanes and most other awakened characters. The problem is that within a tabletop setting where a balance of center stage time between PCs should be a core design goal that having high karma awakened characters totally dominating gameplay diminishes the fun mundane (even fully augmented) characters have in any given session.

Yes a GM should be able to balance the awe inspiring power of the high initiate ranking awakened with other characters by introducing subplots etc but it is very important for a game designer to consider if his/her design allows for even scalability across archetypes.

Read the edit I made while you were posting.

I also don't recall saying anything about advancing being a liability for a mage, other than the higher his Magic rating gets, the easier it becomes for him to lose it.

So, you think there should be no upper limit to the amount of implants a Sam should be able to get? If that's the case, why bother with different grades of Ware at all? Just drop a bit of Karma into Essence, and keep stuffing normal grade ware into your body.

All of this aside, I think we will probably see a hard cap on the Magic rating in SR4, just as there is with Essence. I believe that Initiation will allow access to Metamagics, but will not provide an increase in Magic. This way, any implants that a mage gets will have a permanent impact on his Magic, and will not be seen as a trivial thing (by those that see it as such now).

Actually.. what I think most people are saying, is that the defining trait of a Street Sam is the skill set more than the augmentations, because the augmentations are limitted seriously. Yes, you can't be a Street Sam without some cyber -- but it's not the cyber that makes you deadly, or competant. It's like magic rating -- you have so much augmentation, and it can go up a lot higher, a lot faster, with the various grades. Even if you start out with all normal, you still have alpha, beta, and deltaware -- if you play your cards right. 5.5 essence of deltaware is way above magic 12 or even 18 in value, I would think. (Not including spells, metamagics. Just, straight, magic rating).

Cyber makes a massive difference. It's like getting foci for mages, without having to spend karma to bond -- with a harder limit on the power, but no (real) limit on the number.

The skills, on the other hand, are what defines the Street Sam. They are different character concepts, and that's something that seems to be glossed over a lot. People don't think about Street Sams as the skilled, versatile killing machine. They think of them as the grunt that can do nothing but kill. One of the two is limitted -- the other is not. Think of each skill as roughly equivalent to 1 spell... except less likely to backfire. No drain. Works against most people. No problems with background count.

Which is what I was trying to illustrate by asking about mages who only took the combat spells, a few other helpers, and a few key metamagics. You don't see that really, not long term. Street Sams, on the other hand, seem to be encouraged to specialize into nothing but the killing machine. They aren't given the same encouragement to learn new skills, whereas the mage is typically encouraged to learn more spells. The mage is given opportunities and situations where getting new spells is important, or makes sense. Street Sams aren't given that same encouragement to diversify their skills.

Yes, mages can start taking skills too. But if they do that, then it's instead of increasing their magical potential -- the Street Sam can increase his augmentations and skills both. If they don't, that's also their choice (or the GM brutalizing them by not making it possible to upgrade cyberware).

You mean the part I quoted about knowledge skills? It's part of the argument already; if a knowledge skill ever becomes more useful than Masking or Invoking or Shielding or Symbolic Linking or Levitate or a Forse 2 Power focus or a dikoted AVS ally spirit then the mage would also pick it up, and just as quickly as the sam would. The fact that a mage has better and more powerful things to spend karma on doesn't make him weaker than the sam.

More edit above.

I thought about it for a couple days before I voted 'Yes'

I did house rule that back when 1st edition came out. I think I made it pretty expensive - 50, or 100 karma per essence point - I don't remember which.

I also house ruled Full borgs in second edition. (At char gen: Resources A, Race B, the rest wherever they wanted)

I never had a problem with either, though I think I only had one guy make a Full Borg char.

But I think where people are coming from is that there is a lot of cool cyber out ther that you just can't cram in easily to one char - over time that is. I think that the Cyber char need to be able to grow cybernetically as well as skill wise. Cyber is what makes the cybered char cool after all.


There's no reason you should't be able to 'accessorize' later in your career without havint ot pay the monstrous delta prices - or doc fees.

To make Street Sams have a progression of power that operates more like mages...

Make cyberware cost karma. (Why should the Street Sam just have to pay for the gear? I have to go through hell to get spells for low karma!)

Remove essence entirely. Really, why should they have a hard limit, when mages just have a soft one? Street Sams need mega money for cyberware, that's like mages taking physical or stun damage (drain).

Make little bits of cyber that can do anything. Electromagnetic manipulation (a la Magneto -- fly with all the chrome in them), self-replicating reprogrammable nanites that just plain don't burn out, just do whatever you want with a little itty bitty computers check (that doesn't even take time!).

Yes, I'm being sarcastic. Immensely. Anyone taking the above suggestions seriously needs kicked. Twice.

Deltaware fees? Doc fees? They make sense. Yes, they're brutally expensive. You save, it's an accomplishment to have them. Or you do something brassy like extract Ares' top cyberware researcher, impress him with your skill and ability to function despite damage, and make a deal to be his testbed for actual, valid field testing.

Magic is what mages do -- it overlaps with skill and attributes for them. Street Sams? Their big thing is skills, with a little bit attributes. Cyberware helps -- it doesn't make them the top of the line though. It's like foci -- you pay mega nuyen, but you get something that makes you better able to use your skills.

That being said: I've bought more cyberware post creation then I've seen mages get in foci. I've only seen one focus purchased -- and that was in exchange for an unspecified favour, so not normal. I've purchased, outright, around a million nuyen of cyberware in game. Deltagrade.

And you know what? It's still the skills that make the difference. It's still the skills that are absolutely vital. The cyberware pushes him up 1 level. The personality and attributes another. It's the skills that push him another 2-3 levels.

Mages? It's the spell selection and metamagics that push them up multiple levels. The skills don't nearly so much. Foci help, but aren't the be-all-end-all, until you get into things like force 8 weapon foci.

Feel free to make a "cool" guy that's more man than machine (and more chrome than skill), if you want. You can even get the money to do so fairly easily, just using the cash-for-karma rules. The SR3 system understands that some characters like cash more than karma, and some like karma more than cash. It's already there. Upgrade all you want, you've got plenty of cash coming in, if that's all you're interested in.

Of course, a sammie with skills augmented by chrome (as opposed to chrome augmented by skills) will clean your clock nine times outta ten...but them's the breaks.

With the rules in M&M and few changes one can make Street sams, ungodlly.

Here are the changes,one once you have removed whtever was giving you a hole in your essance, or giving you a boindex you can replace it with soemthing that will fill that hole. No need to make it harder.

Two if you remove the ware, the side of effects of having hte ware, go away as well.

Give ware and items and not just money and watch the sams get uber powerful.

Drop a tac nuke on them and you've just committed a TPK.

Now.. drop a cow on them, and it's just the one.. but that's not particularly fair either.

Or you could pit them against a massive regenerating toxic fire elemental possessed cyberzombie troll without a mage to burn karma healing them when it lets loose with the vindicator coming out of it's back.. But that'd be just mean..

Hehe... other than the swimming, my shaman-adept has more trouble with airports than the Sam.. but, again, the Sam is obscenely advanced techwise and has a small corp employer (where he's head of security, so he's got permits for his toys, and he's somewhat known anyway).. The shaman-adept on the other hand, has an illegal sword weapon focus, a bunch of illegal swords, an smg (no permit), and a force 4 sustaining focus that he uses a lot.. he went travelling and his effectiveness plummeted. Fast. Had to leave most of the stuff behind because they couldn't get it set up to smuggle properly.

Now.. if we were swimming.. then the Sam is in trouble. More than 35 kg of metal. He just has to take an air tank and walk along the bottom.

Not to throw in a repeat of a discussion in another thread, Eyeless, but they don't add up like you're saying they do. You're ignoring the increased Karma cost of utalizing most of the salient metamagics like Centering, which requires you to have at least two skills to use, and those skills should be high to get the best effect, most of the others only have an effect against other magicians. Bonding a Force 6 Power Focus qould also cost 1,260,000 with Street Index factored in. Give the Sam the same basic resources and he can not only raise a skill from 0 to 6, but upgrade or implant new cyber to make him even more dangerous, with some left over for the hottest guns and armor he can get his hands on. Learning Force 6 spells is not astoundingly easy either, though no argument that they can be stunningly powerful when used right (and in the right way to avoid the drain). The core of your complaint is that a magician has more options available as to what to do with his karma. And that's why magicians are karma sinks, always in need of more to accomplish any major improvement. Sams and such are money sinks, requiring vast amounts of cash to upgrade and stay SOTA, but with fewer options in where to put their karma. That's the way it works, that's the balance between the two.

There are a lot of ways to limit a magician, and there are a few ways to limit a chromed-out sam, but then again, there are ways around the limits to a Sam that require some money and legwork to get by, but the limits to magicians require ever increasing amounts of karma (two initiations minimum to get filtering, etc), or cannot be surpassed at all. Mages have a good deal of drawbacks to them, and while the general opinion seems to be against geasa, I find them an excellent way to limit magician characters, especially since so many different conditions can provoke a magic-loss check. YMMV, but I don't see the disparity between the two, except perhaps at the 300+ karma range.

Eyeless Blond: You do seem to gloss over some of the very real problems of the awakened, like Magic loss or Background count.

We're just going back and forth though. My position is that, in my experience, Mages are not overpowered when compared to Sammies, nor are they underpowered. This may not be the case in everyone's games, but that is a factor of the individual game, not the system. No matter what changes you make, some games will always have balance problems, for whatever reasons.

It sounds to me like the argument is that street sams get to a certain skill level and then will want to branch out to effectively keep growing in power, and it's unfair to make rules that make it more effective to branch out, because the rules make magicians branch out much more to effectively keep growing in power.

Somehow I'm missing the logic.

Is branching out good or bad?

If it's good, even a street sam has plenty to keep himself busy for hundreds of karma between various ranged and melee weapon skills and skills to let him get into position to utilize those skills, to fill his core competency, before branching out into other useful but redundant skills like combat tactics, vehicle skills, electronics, etc..

If it's bad, and people should stay narrowly focused, then the mage shouldn't have anything to do with ranged and melee weapon skills; they should focus on their four or five core magical skills instead, pick up a few spells, and then initiate til the cows come home while whining about how expensive and unhelpful it is to initiate from grade 5 to grade 6.

So, which is it? Options = good, or options = bad?

I don't think buying back essence is such a bad idea, assuming the cyber has been taken out. Say, for grade upgrades. I think we went over that before on another thread. BUt I don't think they should be able to buy more essence (6+). just because teh edition changes doesn't mean metahumanity all ofa sudden has more humanit/essence/ability-to-stuff-more-metal-of -the-same-quality into them selves.