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> Decking, the SR3R way
Kagetenshi
post Mar 30 2007, 01:50 AM
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Analyze Icon should only be relatively noninterceptable if you assume that the icons are making some sort of direct connection—that you're directly scanning the other person, rather than going through the host to do so. I don't believe that to be the case.

~J
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Eyeless Blond
post Mar 30 2007, 08:02 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Mar 29 2007, 05:50 PM)
Analyze Icon should only be relatively noninterceptable if you assume that the icons are making some sort of direct connection—that you're directly scanning the other person, rather than going through the host to do so. I don't believe that to be the case.

Well, that's the problem with SR3 decking: none of it at all corresponds in any way to the concepts we are familiar with when it comes to computer use. Most things that are completely and totally impossible, not just merely counterintuitive, in the real world are allowed in SR3, simply for the sake of balance and fun. Most of what happens and what's reasonable in real-world computing and cracking have no place in SR3, and thus should have no place in SR3R unless we plan on fundamentally altering the entire system from the ground up.

There are four priorities here, as I see it. The decking rules should be: 1) Fun and intuitive, 2) Balanced, 3) True to SR3's original flavor and 4) Streamlined as much as is practical. Note that none of these have anything to do with being amenable to RL logic and ideas about computing; most of that goes right out the window when we're talking about stuff that responds to the first three goals, and even the fourth--SR3's own flavor text--is mostly directly contradicts what is sensible in the real world.

As such, flavor arguments should simply hold no water here. The flavor will eventually come to reflect the mechanics, within the SR3 frame of mind, rather than the other way around. I mean, it's not like anyone expects magic to follow RL preconceptions, why should decking when, in all likelihood, computing will be fundamentally different in the next few decades. Hell, quantum computers are already starting to find their way into the commercial sector, though the technology is as clunky as vacuum tubes were back in the day. This means essentially we're one transistor-sized revolution away from quantum computers that can sit on our desk--or, more pointedly, in a small box the size of a keyboard with a port for a datajack.

So let's not get hung up on our late 20th-early 21st century concepts of what a computer is and can do. By 2030-2040 all that's gonna be long gone anyway. The fact that Q-computing will make RSA Encryption obsolete, for example, will simply be the most obvious of our concerns.


Let me give you a bit of counter-flavor, in case you can't possibly conceive of a way Analyze could be different from Manipulate Data:

The term "icon" in SR3 is essentially a small memory address space/processing space that the host has ceded control of to a foreign program, or even computer in the case of user-generated icons. Analyze Icon works by analyzing the allocated memory/processing space of the target icon, a process which isn't protected by the host machine because scanning foreign icons is the primary way in which icons interact. Higher-rating Sensor packages go further than the normal scan, following links into other memory spaces the target icon has linked to, which may be attempts to Mask itself.

Totally contrary to modern-day computing "common sense"? Sure. Plausible in an insane future world where all NP-complete problems can be solved in a flash? Sure, why not?
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nezumi
post Mar 30 2007, 04:35 PM
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In regards to letting the deckers more easily sit and wait, I'd recommend the following changes:

1) The Null Operation test is unusual (once per hour or somesuch)
2) Global tally naturally goes up and down on its own (since tally is no longer connected with a decker, we're only worried about global tally) - if something happens in second 1, then again in second 3, but then stops for ten or twenty minutes, the system figures the decker has most likely moved on, or it was just a bug, and the tally goes down a few notches.
3) The "random background tally" naturally rises and falls as random stuff goes on. So the decker might log in while the background tally is 13, but as the crisis passes thirty minutes later, the background tally drops to 2.

The second one especially I think is critical. The tally MUST go down after periods of inactivity, or systems would just keep accruing tallies until they rebooted and started again from scratch. How long it takes for the tally to drop again should depend on the nature of the system and what our security sheafs finally look like.
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Platinum
post Mar 30 2007, 06:23 PM
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I really don't like the global tally having such a really strong effect on the decker.

I think once a minute there should be a roll of 2d6, on a 2 it goes down by 1 point ... on 12 it goes up by 1 point, but a decker's tally still needs to be tracked, and that is the major mechanic here.

The global tally is a modifier... Hey ... what about a -modifier... there are times that the system is just at peace.... there are no threats, and so it can actually start as a negative.
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nezumi
post Mar 30 2007, 08:06 PM
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I agree, the global tally should never account for more than 10 points under normal operations (plot-wise, there are reasons it should go up, for instance, during a crash, and the "global" tally will also go up when the decker is close to another troublesome decker or program, whether aware of it or not.)
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Moon-Hawk
post Mar 30 2007, 08:16 PM
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If the tally is going to decay (and I agree with this) then it should be set at a rate such that if an "average" hacker is simply performing null operations (at whatever interval you decide you like) the tally should break even and not go anywhere.
Thus, a below-average hacker doing nothing or an average hacker doing stuff will tend to increase their tally, but an above average hacker performing nothing but null operations will have their tally slowly decrease.

It just seems natural to me that that's the level of paranoia average systems would be tuned to. There's going to be all kinds of modifiers, but IMO that's where you should set your "break-even" point when everything involved is typical.
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nezumi
post Mar 30 2007, 08:54 PM
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I can agree to that, as long as the hard-core hackers can let it decrease.
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Kagetenshi
post Mar 30 2007, 09:10 PM
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Hackers/crackers can't accrue any tally, as they're at least 20 years in the past (assuming an earliest game date of 2049).

That said, if we're going to do something like that, it'd probably be best to pick either host colour or host difficulty, tie them to a decker skill level, and then work the numbers so that that skill level has their tally stay pretty constant while performing nullops on that host, lower skill levels have it rise, and higher skill levels have it lower slowly.

~J
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Eyeless Blond
post Mar 31 2007, 12:35 AM
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Hm. Okay, how about this rule for Null Ops then. Note this should probably be in a separate section from other System operations (and thus referred to directly in the Table of Contents), rather than in-lined with the rest of 'em as seen in the SR3 book, to emphasize its separateness and importance:

(Edit: due to comments)
Null Operation: When a decker is illegally logged in to a host, he is constantly vying with the host's security system to avoid detection, even when he is not doing anything especially important. If the period of time is sufficiently long, say ten minutes or more, the GM may call for a "null operation" test to reflect this. Treat this as a modified System Operation, with the decker making a test against the Control subsystem and using his Masking persona chip as a utility. The decker receives an extra 2 dice on this test for every extra initiative die he has beyond the first, and the system receives an extra 2 dice for every rank it Security Code is above Blue (+2 dice for Green, +4 dice for Orange, +6 dice for Red). If the decker wins, he reduces the host's Security Tally by 1d6/2 for every two net successes he earns; if the host wins, it increases its Tally by 1d6/2 for every two net successes (note that the host does not simply add each success to the decker's tally; that particular rule is suspended for this Operation). The Rule of Six does not apply on the security tally dice.

Of course, the decker himself is not the only thing generating (or eliminating) Security Tally. Each time the GM calls for a Null Operation, he also rolls 2d6-7. This number, whether positive or negative, is added to the Tally, to reflect the random factors affecting tally over which the decker has no control.

If the Security Test raises the decker's security tally and triggers a response from the host, the gamemaster should activate the response as he sees fit. perhaps after a percentage interval of the decker's period of inactivity.

Note that the period of time represented by a Null Operation is kept deliberately vague; a single test should suffice for any period between ten minutes and an hour. If the decker is going to remain in a system for extremely long periods of time, the GM may choose to call for multiple Null Operation tests, possibly one for every hour or few hours the decker spends connected to a host. In this case each net success by the decker or system affect the tally by 1d6/2, and the GM rolls 3d6-11 for the random tally generation.


How's that? I'm mainly trying to keep the whole idea simple, while factoring in both the decker's contribution to the Tally as well as the random. Of course all this needs massive playtesting, but what do you think of the idea, and the numbers?
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post Mar 31 2007, 02:01 PM
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On Null operations, the standard rules use 1 test and adjust it based on the time spent idle rather than 10 minute intervals. You dislike tables in play, I prefer less dice rolls too ;) Could you incorporate this into your revision? Also, what's the dice bonus due to initiative bonus about - just interested in the reasoning?

Also here's the Null ops rule if anyone wants a look.
[ Spoiler ]
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Eyeless Blond
post Mar 31 2007, 05:47 PM
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Yes, on page 218. Okay, I went ahead and edited the entry to make the time units more flexible. What I intended was to completely remove all Null Ops tests if the wait time was less than ~10 minutes, to help cut down on dice rolls. But you're right; the period between 10 minutes and an hour would've had too many die rolls. So, fixed.

As to init boosters providing bonuses, well mechanically it was to balance the bonus based on the host's security level. Intuitively, it was meant to toss a bone to people who have init boosters, as they should be able to react faster to what the host is doing. Flavor-wise, if you can cover your tracks twice as quickly then the host should have less reason to suspect something it going on.
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Eyeless Blond
post Apr 6 2007, 02:20 AM
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I'm not even sure where we are here. There's been a lot of ideas in the past few pages, and very little reaction to those ideas. Anyone care to respond?
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nezumi
post Apr 6 2007, 01:08 PM
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I've been overall supportive of most of the ideas posted (and I've given long posts as to why). That said, astral space and decking are the two threads I haven't been taking notes on as of late as I catch up on everything else.
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Eyeless Blond
post Apr 15 2007, 09:38 AM
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Wow, has it really been over two weeks since we've had a meaningful post here? We're making a lot of progress; let's keep up the pace!

QUOTE (Platinum)
I really don't like the global tally having such a really strong effect on the decker.

QUOTE (nezumi)
I agree, the global tally should never account for more than 10 points under normal operations (plot-wise, there are reasons it should go up, for instance, during a crash, and the "global" tally will also go up when the decker is close to another troublesome decker or program, whether aware of it or not.)

Personally I don't have a problem with the decker himself being a little (but significant) fish in what sometimes can be a very big pond. We're talking about servers here with hundreds, thousands, even in RTG cases millions of simultaneous users, potentially billions of processes and transactions going on in a second. It's in this nebulous anonymity that security tally, tiny anomalous blips in the overwhelming crush of calculation float to the surface where the system just happens to catch them.

Sure, sometimes there's a decker or virus trying to compromise the system, but if we want the idea of security tally as it currently stands to make even a shred of sense, most of the time tally should be a false alarm. If the only time you ever see a tally above a certain number X, then common sense would dictate that number X be the number that the system auto-destructs at. See where I'm getting at with this? It's for this reason that, far from lowering the random tally table idea, I'm even considering that maybe the dice should have exploding 6s. I have no problem with the decker popping into a system, seeing it's currently having a fit because of a random unrelated glitch, and have to either bug out because the system's too hot or have to power through because he's either unlucky or overconfident, and decides to take it on anyway.

That said, how does that above proposed rule for Null Ops sound?
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post Apr 15 2007, 12:24 PM
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A quick question regarding Null Operation (either version). Is it for situations where the decker is constantly vying with the host to remain anonymous or where the decker has their attention elsewhere such as communicating with team-mates? Or both/neither?
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Eyeless Blond
post Apr 15 2007, 11:32 PM
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I think both/either. The relevant text from the original rule is:

"The gamemaster may require a decker to perform one or
more Null Operations whenever the decker is waiting for some-
thing to happen, whether it is an event on the Matrix, the end of
an ongoing operation, or something else that Involves hanging
around in cyberspace without making System Tests. The
gamemaster may also call for a Null Operation if a decker is
doing anything that requires actions but not System Tests, such
as maintaining an Edit Slave."
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nezumi
post Apr 16 2007, 02:50 PM
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Alright, I've got a character joining my game as a decker, so I have good reason to push this along. Here is my updated list of quandries. I'm running out of space here, so we need to start shelving some issues!! Please tell me which issues we are definitely NOT including, or what has been solved and what the solution is.

Agreed upon rules:
[ Spoiler ]


Suggested rules:
A) Drop response increase in favor of mental-initiative boosting cyber (like a VCR)
1. Should be capped by deck
2. Include 'mental initiative' cyberware/stat
3. Have multiple ratings for datajacks
B) Redirect Datatrail success adds +1 to the Location cycle (making it take longer, not harder)
C) IC are just frame agents loaded with appropriate programs
1. All IC get the features of Probe IC (adding to the value of System Tests)
D) Persona attributes can be redistributed with a complex action while in the system
1. Optional rule: you can go above the MPCP limit by paying 2 MPCP pts per attribute point
E) Drop memory requirements (like SR4)
F) Agent rules are kinder, allowing a decker to have multiple agents. Drones are agents with bodies (SR4)
G) AR allows for people to do simple things without physically disengaging from the real world (SR4)
H) (this area free)
I) All electronic devices (including cyber) can be connected to the matrix and thereby hacked (SR4)
1. ACIFS of 2*rating for all areas
J) Everyone should be able to use AR and therefore the matrix, making the computer skill much more common
K) IC should have to spend time searching rather than immediately appear next to the decker after the tally has increased
L) The decker should be able to directly deceive the IC, not JUST the host
M) A legitimate user who commits an illegal operation may be dumped with no tests
N) Prices should be included for non-illegal decks in the main manual
O) Nezumi's matrix metaphor - host as a physical facility with stationary guards, searching guards, security tally based by approximate location:
1. IC reacts instantly, but it takes time to FIND the decker based on local activity and rating
2. A search is a Analyze Icon cycle on all local icons until a suspicious one is found
- IC can attack the wrong icon if it looks to be suspicious
- Evade detection puts the decker farther away and increases time for the search
3. Security tally is applied to the lowest level possible, to the user (if legitimate), region, host, system, grid in that order
- A system may decide to try and isolate a decker by disallowing traffic from a high-tally area
4. IC serve as the host's eyes. If IC has a visual lock on the decker, other IC can find him immediately and the user may be dumped
5. Stationary IC will analyze every icon that passes by and will automatically attack suspicious icons, regardless as to their tally
6. Increases in alert levels are system-wide, and possibly network wide
P) Hacking pool should have more basis on skill or attributes
1. (Int + Wil + MPCP/2)/3
2. (Int + Wil + Computer skill)/3
Q) Create a 'false positive' background count for security tally
1. 1d6-1 for >50 users, 2d6-2 50-500, 3d6-3 >500
-For ease of calculation, drop the -1/-2/-3 and just start the sheaf higher
2. Is tally based on the host, the network, the PLTG, or the most popular host connected to it?
3. Should background tally be linked to the rating of the host? Red 4d6, Orange 3d6, etc.?
4. Tally decreases by 6 for blue, 4 for green, 2 for orange, 1 for red every twenty minutes, + die roll again
R) Tunneled Connection operation - Simple Action every turn to maintain a connection through the chokepoints, which allows for your Masking, makes Encephalon useful
1. What if the deck allowed for certain 'sustained' actions?
2. In complex network diagrams, decker has to tunnel through intermediate hosts to hide his trail
3. Security tally in inhereted downwards, RTG->LTG->Host->Subhost
-RTGs don't pass tally, LTG's pass tally but don't receive tally, PLTG's share tally between all hosts
4. Tunneling doesn't take actions, but imposes initiative penalties based on the rating of the chokepoint
S) Deck construction... Too complex? Becoming unnecessary?
1. Allow decks to sustain certain actions like tunnel firewall
2. Decks bottleneck mental initiative
3. Drop memory costs
4. MPCP limits number of programs and processes running
T) Tally accumulates too fast to allow for matrix overwatch
1. Operations involving Index subsystem, Analyze utility don't accumulate tally
2. Add an operation that lowers your tally?
3. Tally decreases over time, assuming no further illegal operations (may increase more though, due to null ops and background tally)
- Tally decreases by 6 for blue, 4 for green, 2 for orange, 1 for red every twenty minutes
4. Increase space between attacks on the sheaf
- This helps matrix overwatch, but makes datasteals too easy
5. Null Ops. may DECREASE the security tally
U) Evasion or IC rating should be the TN for cybercombat tests, IC's attack program for damage


Problems:
1. Detection factor is too important, but never above 7 at chargen. It should be higher.
- Due to the exponential growth of TN difficulties, a DF of 16 is largely unbeatable. Is 7-16 a wide enough range?
2. Multiple systems for deckers, one quicker for interaction with non-decking PCs, one more expansive, both equivalent except for speed and detail
3. Determine if programming tools is too easy
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nezumi
post Apr 16 2007, 03:04 PM
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To give my opinion on what I just wrote...

A) (Response increase cyber)
I've been considering this. I think I like it. Yes, yes and eh.

B) (Redirect datatrail makes traces longer, not harder) - Yes
C) (IC are frame agents) - Yes
D) (CA to redistribute persona attributes) - Eh... No, too complex without much benefit
E) (Drop memory requirements) - I don't care. They could do with simplification though.
F) (Nicer agent rules) - Yes, I like this, and I like that drones are agents. Simplicity and compatibility rule
G) (AR allows for basic matrix functions) - Yes
I) (All electronic devices (including cyber) are matrix compatible) - Not all, but most should be
J) (Everyone should have access to AR, computer skill better) - No, not at this point. It would be alright for a SOTA65 supplement, but right now it would have too much of an impact
K) (IC spends time searching) - Yes, but we need a specific rule on that, perhaps based off evasion?
L) (Decker can directly deceive IC, not just host) - Yes, this needs a mechanic
M) (Legitimate users can be dumped with tally of 1) - I think this is a requirement, really
N) (Prices for legal equipment) - Yes
O) Nezumi's matrix metaphor - Yes, of course, I'll be testing it soon, actually (although I'll drop the tally being broken to such low levels as regions for now)
P) (Hacking pool) - I like #2. Computer skill should be the important bit.
Q) (Background tally count) - Yes yes yes! The question is what mechanic. I feel like the host rating should be a critical part of that, as well as population, but that quickly gets too complex. I definitely support 4 (decrease tally and reroll)
R) (Tunneling) - Not huge on it, but I could go either way. Perhaps a good reason to make the decker enter with the group.
S) (Deck construction) - 1, 2 and maybe 4.
T) (Tally accumulation) - 1, 3. I think 5 is accounted for by 3. I don't like 4, it makes datasteals too easy.
U) (Use evasion for cybercombat) - Yes, good thinking.
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Eyeless Blond
post Apr 17 2007, 03:14 AM
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Forgot about: (EDIT: proposal "V" changed to "H", as suggested by nezumi)
H) Extending the "Tally is kept system wide, brought up to the tally of the highest individual on the host" rule, both to mesh better with the original rules and to be more sensible:
H1) Tally inheritance, Part I: Tally accumulated on an LTG is passed to all PLTGs/hosts "underneath" it. If the tally increases on the LTG, then the same amount is added to every host/PLTG that uses that LTG to hook up to the Matrix, but if a host or PLTG increase their own security tally, the LTG's tally is unaffected.
H2) Tally inheritance, Part II: RTG tally wouldn't be passed to the lower-level LTGs/PLTG/hosts, however; this is to create an actual mechanical difference between RTGs and LTGs, where now the difference is entirely symbolic. Linked RTGs also don't pass tally to each other.
H3) Tally inheritance, Part III: PLTGs share security tally. A PLTG has a single security tally, which is increased or decreased by each host in it, as if they were all one big superhost with a single value for tally.
H4) All of Q) actually goes under here. The main reason Q exists is for flavor: without "false-positive" tally then all tally would have to be the result of real intruders, and it would be insane to have systems ever remain online even after a single point of tally is accumulated.


Impressions:

Huh, and here I was under the impression that all of the following were already accepted by everyone: A, B, C/F (though we do need specific Agent/IC/drone construction rules, and I really don't think C1 is a good idea), K, N.

D) Eh, I wouldn't have a problem with this, though Nexumi is right it's mostly complexity without added benefit. Maybe if more attributes were important than just Masking.

E) Eh, in my games it never matters, as I usually end up getting more active/storage/offline storage memory than I can ever use, just to have one less number to worry about.

G/J) No AR-for-everyone, but something like a DNI-enabled pocket secretary, or anything other significantly-advanced DNI-enabled electronics should have some sort of HUD, rather like the car's virtual dashboard, which can be accessed without having to activate an RAS override. So no AR, but DNI-enabled tortise mode.

I) I like rating+4 myself. Remember that TNs increase exponentially in difficulty; adding to the TN results in multiplying the difficulty; doubling the TN actually squares the difficulty.

L) Er, this already has a mechanic. It's Evade Detection, classified as a combat maneuver, the decker rolling Evasion against the IC rating-decker's Cloak utility, the IC rolling its Rating against the decker's Evasion-IC's Lock-on(I think?) utility. If the decker wins he evades the IC for a number of turns equal to his net successes. I think this one's a keeper.

M) Auto-dump I think should apply only to users without Masking; *everyone* is trying to fake being a legitimate user; the ones with Masking just can do so without being under the host's control.

O) The Matrix being run as a pseudo-office building? *shrug* I can get behind that, though what I'd rather do is have sculpted systems be possible, but have the decker be able (and willing) to bypass the metaphors when it's not convenient to the game. More on this later; I've got a few ideas that I want to flesh out.

P-2) Absolutely agree that (Int+Wil+Comp Skill)/3 is the best.
HOWEVER, if we do this, we might want to consider making computer skill a little harder to come by. Maybe require that getting a new rank in computer skill requires 3 times as many points invested in computer-related knowledge skills, with 2 skills at equal or greater level? Something to add a little extra karma cost to upgrading computer skill, since each rank in the skill would add 1.333 dice to any decking test.

Q-2) The original idea was that all tally, including the randomly-generated stuff, was inherited, according to the rules above (see H)
Q-3) No, tally should depend on the size of the host, the number of users, etc. Essentially, the number of times that innocent transactions can be mis-identified as hostile acts. Higher security hosts already have shorter trigger steps, so the higher the security level the more IC/alerts will be pre-activated due to the same default background tally.
Q-4) No, random tally fluctuations will be handled by Null Ops when the decker is online, and a simple reroll when the decker is offline. Besides, constant decrease would mean all host tallies would go to zero over time.

R-1) Rather than the deck, this sort of thing should be the realm of cyberware. Specifically the encephalon, which according to the flavor text is supposed to supplement your thought processes; this rule would actually allow the 'ware to do that by taking over sustaining a currently active thought process.
R-4) We could actually do both, and in fact if we do the first we should do the second, simply to prevent large corps from making strings of 20 hosts to completely shut down outside incursion of their PLTGs (doing so with R 1-4 enacted would mean that noone could actually use such a daisy-chained host, making it less likely to exist.)

S) Yes, deck construction need to be rethought.

T) 5 can accomplish 2 and 3, as well as Q-4, all in one test. If things are too hot the decker tries to "lay low" for awhile and do what he can to lower the tally. See here for details. I also like T-1, though that might be a bit much.
T-4) I don't think this will be necessary. So long as K and/or O are implemented, having even several pieces of active IC wandering around won't be a big problem.

U) I came up with this, so obviously I like it.
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Eyeless Blond
post Apr 17 2007, 06:01 AM
Post #295


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Oh, I just had a quick brainstorm:

W) "Backdoor" utility metaphor, to eliminate all that silly system sculpting when it's not useful--namely during Overwatch missions.
W1) The "normal" metaphors that scripted hosts have work fine for the vast majority of users, and most of the time for deckers as well.
W2) For security deckers, however, a more utilitarian approach is needed. Security deckers need to be watching the security feeds of the actual building, not ordering a hamburger or dancing with a brunette icon or whatever the sculpted equivalents are.
W2.1) So, such deckers have access to a special "utility metaphor," The utility metaphor almost invariably looks like a wireframe digital representation of the building the decker is patrolling, and gives them easier access to slaved systems and other security operations.
W2.2) Intruding deckers can gain access to this metaphor as well. All they need to do is find a "backdoor" into the metaphor with a Locate Resource operation, and can be accessed with an "Logon to utility metaphor" operation (essentially the same thing as the "Logon" operation). It can be exited just as simply with a "Graceful Logoff" operation. Intruding deckers use this mode for overwatch missions usually.
W2.3) Mechanically the utility metaphor just changes around a few of the ACIFS ratings, like so:
Access- Unchanged.
Control- Null Operations: -1TN; the metaphor is built specifically for security deckers and other long-term inactive occupants, and so such occumpants are not observed as closely. Otherwise unchanged.
Index- To Locate any Slave system: -1TN To Locate anything else: +2TN. Note that this does make the decker somewhat more vulnerable to being attacked by IC, as he's less likely to notice them around. I feel this is a good thing, as there may even be cases where a decker in a real pinch would have to log back into the "real" sculpted metaphor to locate and destroy/hide from a bunch of IC.
Files- +4 to all TNs. This metaphor is not meant for storing or manipulating file information
Slave- -2 to all TNs. The primary purpose of this metaphor is for security deckers to be able to monitor several slaved security systems at once.
W2.4) (Maybe) In anticipation of deckers swapping between metaphors as needed, maybe Index, Files and Slave systems should all be raised a point by default?


Okay I've looked over O) again, and I like it a lot more, especially the stuff about IC.

O-1,2) Yes, absolutely, though change the word "reacts" to "activates": "Patrolling IC activates instantly when a specific security tally value it reached, but it takes time to FIND the decker based on local activity and rating."
O-3) Counter-proposal: V1-4. Note that "Region" is exceptionally vague in a place where geography is entirely subjective btw; note how some metaphors put an entire host inside a single dance hall, while others include whole buildings.
O-4) Absolutely, though I vote that a user should only be automatically dumped if he doesn't have Masking.
O-5) Hm, I'm not sure about "passing by"; that's especially vague in a world with subjective distance/geography/iconography. How about this instead:
"Guard IC, unlike patrolling IC, are always active, and due to the resource drain they cause are fairly rare. They actively guard one or a number of specific resources (specific files, slaved systems, etc) and scan each icon that passes by and will automatically activate when noticing suspicious icons, regardless as to their tally." This is where things like Scramble IC come in, as they are clearly not the patrolling-IC type.
O-6) No, I kinda think that alert levels should stay on the originating host.


Wow, three posts to the same thread in one evening. I wonder if anyone will actually read all that? :P
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nezumi
post Apr 17 2007, 03:27 PM
Post #296


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Because we're running out of letters, I'm moving V under H (but otherwise keeping it more or less the same), although Q. is still independent. I think it's separate enough to be approached as its own issue.

A I thought was still under discussion, especially since we hadn't gotten the details down. I do agree that the general idea seems to have been well received though.

B I can agree as being settled and I'll put it where it belongs.

C I can agree as being settled, since no one disagreed. I'll drop suggestion 1.

K and N haven't really been discussed and they need specific rules. K especially. How long does it take for IC to find its target? Rating + Analyze vs. TN of the decker's Evasion?

I've rearranged some letters on my file (you won't see the changes until I post it again though, so don't worry about it).

L - You evade them for only a short period of time, and that's evading, not deceiving. I have players who want to show a "fake ID" to the IC and let their detection factor get to work again, which sort of makes sense, given the metaphor.

P - If we try to make computer skill more expensive, it might be better to break it into multiple skills. So Hacking pool is based off cybercombat, a new skill that you use for well, cybercombat. Computer still applies to all other non-combat tests. Debatably, hacking pool no longer applies to non-combat tests, in which case the average ACIFS ratings should be decreased. But that might be making things far too complicated.

Your editing changes I've made, since they're good. The exception is the 'stationary IC' one which I've shortened slightly. Keep in mind, I generally don't bother keeping the entire justification for something, only a line, maybe two, since that would quickly get too long to comfortably navigate.


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Eyeless Blond
post Apr 18 2007, 02:25 AM
Post #297


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QUOTE (nezumi)
Because we're running out of letters, I'm moving V under H (but otherwise keeping it more or less the same), although Q. is still independent.  I think it's separate enough to be approached as its own issue.
Heh, all right. Change made to my post to reflect this.

QUOTE
K and N haven't really been discussed and they need specific rules.  K especially.  How long does it take for IC to find its target?  Rating + Analyze vs. TN of the decker's Evasion?

L - You evade them for only a short period of time, and that's evading, not deceiving.  I have players who want to show a "fake ID" to the IC and let their detection factor get to work again, which sort of makes sense, given the metaphor.
Good point. "Rating + Analyze" is SR4 rules, remember; in SR3 utilities decrease TNs rather than adding to the test. There's already a Locate Decker operation in SR3, p.217, but the rules are kinda odd (hey, look, I found another Open Test!). In fact this kinda brings to the surface another problem with the decking rules:


X) Take the Combine System Operations idea further. Eliminate as many corner cases and special rules for each different system operation as possible, especially the weird ones, like how Locate Slave has a pseudo-Threshold of 3 while Locate Files is 4, or how Analyze Icon lowers the TN by Sensor and the Analyze utility, rather than just a utility. This could take awhile, but will be worth it in play.


QUOTE
P - If we try to make computer skill more expensive, it might be better to break it into multiple skills.  So Hacking pool is based off cybercombat, a new skill that you use for well, cybercombat.  Computer still applies to all other non-combat tests.  Debatably, hacking pool no longer applies to non-combat tests, in which case the average ACIFS ratings should be decreased.  But that might be making things far too complicated.
Indeed. This also creates the problem that it completely changes the dynamic of deckers from being primarily cash-based to primarily skill-based, which would mean we'd be forced to lower the prices on decks or risk deckers being incompetent long into their careers. I'm not entirely against the idea, especially since SR4 managed to pull it off so well, and we're just about redesigning the decking rules from the ground up as it is, but it may be a bit too much of a fundamental divergence.


QUOTE
Your editing changes I've made, since they're good.  The exception is the 'stationary IC' one which I've shortened slightly.  Keep in mind, I generally don't bother keeping the entire justification for something, only a line, maybe two, since that would quickly get too long to comfortably navigate.

Still, it may be a good idea to specify Stationary IC as guarding specific system resources, rather than just "everyone passing by". Movement doesn't really mean anything in the Matrix, so "passing" someone doesn't either.
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nezumi
post Apr 18 2007, 01:32 PM
Post #298


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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Good point. "Rating + Analyze" is SR4 rules, remember; in SR3 utilities decrease TNs rather than adding to the test. There's already a Locate Decker operation in SR3, p.217, but the rules are kinda odd (hey, look, I found another Open Test!). In fact this kinda brings to the surface another problem with the decking rules:



Good catch, and especially with a rating 6 IC, that can be huge. However I don't think analyze should decrease the decker's Detection Rating, since it'll generally be in the 7-10 range, and a rating 5 analyze program would decimate that, nor does it make sense that analyze work against the Host's Index value, because that would just be sort of silly, making the host work against itself. Perhaps it would be simpler just to use the Locate Decker operation and replace it with an Analyze test vs. a TN of the Detection Factor?


Your 'X' I tucked in at C, since there's space there. Hope that isn't a problem.

QUOTE
Still, it may be a good idea to specify Stationary IC as guarding specific system resources, rather than just "everyone passing by". Movement doesn't really mean anything in the Matrix, so "passing" someone doesn't either.


I did make that specification. I know I tend to forget about the Matrix's odd sense of reality and physical layout.
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Eyeless Blond
post Apr 19 2007, 02:42 AM
Post #299


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QUOTE (nezumi)
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Apr 17 2007, 09:25 PM)
Good point. "Rating + Analyze" is SR4 rules, remember; in SR3 utilities decrease TNs rather than adding to the test. There's already a Locate Decker operation in SR3, p.217, but the rules are kinda odd (hey, look, I found another Open Test!). In fact this kinda brings to the surface another problem with the decking rules:

Good catch, and especially with a rating 6 IC, that can be huge. However I don't think analyze should decrease the decker's Detection Rating, since it'll generally be in the 7-10 range, and a rating 5 analyze program would decimate that, nor does it make sense that analyze work against the Host's Index value, because that would just be sort of silly, making the host work against itself. Perhaps it would be simpler just to use the Locate Decker operation and replace it with an Analyze test vs. a TN of the Detection Factor?

Hm, maybe. I don't like how Detection Factor is used for everything, however, maybe instead...

Y) Extensibility guidelines for Matrix Attributes: what's the difference between Evasion and Masking?
Y1) Evasion is your Matrix agility. It is the ability of your deck to keep out of sight of other Icons, out of Matrix combat, and other things. Evasion is the TN for targeted attacks made against you.
Y1-i) Interception Factor (IF) starts at Evasion*2 (Rating*2 for IC)
Y1-ii) Interception Factor is the TN that Trace IC uses to lock onto you.
Y1-ii) Interception Factor is the TN that other Icons use to find your Icon in the first place.
Y1-iii) Maybe Evasion isn't illegal at low levels? Defined like this Evasion sounds something like a spam filter, rather than something aggressive.

Y2) Masking is your Matrix stealth. It is the ability of your deck to keep the host from noticing what changes you make to it, and the internal functions of your Icon.
Y2-i) Detection Factor (DF) starts at Masking*2 (Rating*2 for IC)
Y2-ii) Detection Factor is the TN the host uses when resisting any changes you attempt to make to it.
Y2-iii) Detection Factor is the TN that other Icons (such as ID or security deckers) use to Analyze your icon for anomalies.

Y3) Two types of scans for other Icons: (clarifying page 209)
Y3-i) Simple Scanning is a Free Action, something your deck does almost by default. Unlike most Matrix operations, this uses your Sensor rating.
Y3-ii) Deep Scanning is a Complex Action. It uses your Computer skill, plus any Hacking Pool you choose to use.
Y3-iii) Either type of scan targets every other Icon on the host. The TN is equal to the target Icon's IF - your Scanner utility.
-1 success: You detect the Icon.
-2 successes: You get a basic idea of the Icon's type (decker, foreign Agent program, IC)
-3 successes: You learn the Icon's Rating.
-4+ successes: For each additional success you learn the type and rating of one random program in the Icon's active memory.
Y3-iv) Successes are not cumulative; each time you run a Scan, the success counter is reset from zero, meaning you can actually know less about an Icon in a subsequent Scan.
Y3-v) "Mobile" IC (see below) use Deep Scans, then Analyze each Icon it detects in random order, looking for anomalies.

Y4) Obscure Icon: Expend actions to increase your IF? Something like make a System test vs. TN of Index-Evasion, successes add to IF for the next X minutes? Not sure about this one.

Y5) Distract Icon: Basically the new Evade Detection; an opposed test of your skill vs TN of enemy's Sensor/Rating, countered by enemy's skill/Rating vs. TN of your Evasion/Rating. Net successes counters scanning Icon's successes, kinda like counterspelling for Scans.

Y5) Analyze Icon
Y5-i) Analyze targets a single Icon, TN of DF minus Analyze utility:
-1 success: You get a basic idea of the Icon's type (decker, foreign Agent program, IC)
-2 successes: You learn the Icon's Rating/MPCP Rating
-3 successes: You learn the Icon's Bod and Sensor ratings, as well as its MXP address.
-4+ successes: For each additional success you choose to either learn an anomaly the Icon has (if any), such as:
--whether or not the Icon has a Masking or Evasion chip, and its rating
--whether or not the Icon is responsible for any tally increase on this host.
--whether there are no anomalies.
or you learn the types and rating of 2 programs the Icon has in Active Memory.
Y5-ii) Successes are cumulative; each time you Analyze an Icon, the success counter increases, and you learn more.
Y5-iii) "Mobile" IC (see below) Analyze each Icon it detects in random order, looking for anomalies.

Y6) Deceive Icon. No idea how this would work. Something like Distract Icon? *shrug* Something along the lines of you can give the Analyzing Icon a "faked" result for one or more of the above Analyze results.


And another:

Z) As it stands, IC has effective Persona Attributes equal to its Rating, while a decker has, effectively, adjustible attributes equal to, on average, 3/4*MPCP rating. Is this okay, or should we consider revising it?

QUOTE
Your 'X' I tucked in at C, since there's space there.  Hope that isn't a problem.
C, eh? Okay then.
QUOTE
QUOTE
Still, it may be a good idea to specify Stationary IC as guarding specific system resources, rather than just "everyone passing by". Movement doesn't really mean anything in the Matrix, so "passing" someone doesn't either.

I did make that specification. I know I tend to forget about the Matrix's odd sense of reality and physical layout.

Indeed; the way "Stationary IC" were defined before could in fact be the same as your "moving" Guard IC. Distance, and therefore closeness, in the Matrix are determined by the results of Sensor tests--the better your Sensor test, the "closer" something is, and the better you can "see" it--so activated searching IC could very well be represented as a stationary bouncer, watching (Scanning) the icons "near" him.

So, to clarify, we now have two "modes" for IC operation:

-"Mobile" IC- the ones that randomly scan all icons on the host that they can locate, latching onto ones that they detect as problematic. These are the type that are activated by security tally trigger steps. Despite the name, the dominant representation for such IC is that of a stationary "guard" unit, warily scanning the vicinity with his "eyes".
-and "non-Mobile" or "Trap" IC- IC that is always active, but only "guards" a limited number of areas. Say a Trap IC unit is assigned to watch a set of security cameras. Anyone who attempts to access those cameras will be subject to an Analyze Icon by the IC, on the IC's next action, of course.

In that vein, proposed add-ons to rule O:
O-7) User databases will always have non-Mobile IC guarding them, perhaps several, and usually high-rating Grey or Black IC. This'll help solve the "Validate makes the world obsolete" problem without smaller companies having to make separate hosts for user databases.
O-8) (mostly flavor issue) Hosts can have a maximum number of total IC equal to the security rating times the security level (blue=1, green=2, orange=3, red=4), but can only support one-fourth that amount of Trap IC.
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nezumi
post Apr 19 2007, 04:04 PM
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Ay! You and your huge posts! I'll read this from bottom up...

QUOTE
O-7) User databases will always have non-Mobile IC guarding them, perhaps several, and usually high-rating Grey or Black IC. This'll help solve the "Validate makes the world obsolete" problem without smaller companies having to make separate hosts for user databases.
O-cool.gif (mostly flavor issue) Hosts can have a maximum number of total IC equal to the security rating times the security level (blue=1, green=2, orange=3, red=4), but can only support one-fourth that amount of Trap IC.


7 - I think this would be determined by the host, not a set rule. It's 'best practices', but not something that is mandated and automatically installed on every host commercially produced.

8 - I'm not huge on this one. It adds complexity without clear benefits. If a GM wants to have 10 or 20 probe IC running around on a blue host, he should be able to. The limitation is processing power. Most hosts have a cap on how much IC they put on because they need the processing power for other things, but hypothetically someone could have a host that does nothing but run IC (like say a host in use by people who develop IC programs), in which case the maximum number of IC run would be different.


I think we have different ideas of movement in distance in the matrix. To a degree, I still think similar to SR2. Even if you have a senor rating of 20, you may not be able to access the User database, video cameras and Joe's water club spreadsheet all at the same time. In my mind, a host isn't just a huge pile of stuff you sort through, interacting only with what you can see, but with everything available at your fingertips if you look for it. It isn't a dump truck. A matrix host is a series of tubes. If you're using the camera system and you need to check on Joe's water club spreadsheet, you need to disassociate yourself with the camera program, search for the spreadsheet and somehow 'go to' that spreadsheet, which may involve passing through other things on the way. If you think about a modern folder hierarchy, except... less heirarchical, that's what I have in mind. I don't think my view is contrary to what is in the rules, and I suspect I"m not the only one who holds it. So the defining things like mobility is a touchy subject.


Added "Z" as "E", since that's now clear. And my answer is no, it shouldn't. The current method is nice and simple, no reason to muddy it up. A persona attribute can still be boosted through software though. An interesting note, a legitimate user, someone who does not have masking, has only three persona attributes and therefore each attribute is, by default, equal to the MPCP rating on his deck. It's only by adding the fourth attribute, masking, that we found our decks somehow 'underpowered'.


Ugh... Your huge 'Y' thing :P I shouldn't have saved this one for last, it's huge!

This is actually filed under V, since I tucked V in another empty spot. Thank goodness, now I won't have to look at two pages of notes every time I glance at decking.


I've written your stuff out, although I changed the format slightly. The bulk of it goes under V, since that's the next available letter. I thought the deep vs. shallow scanning was different enough that it fell under Y, so even if V dies, the idea of shallow vs. deep scanning can be examined by its own merits. Finally, one of the ideas (Deceive Icon) was already touched upon, so I cross referenced, since again, I think that is its own issue.

So I typed it out as such:

L) The decker should be able to directly deceive the IC, not JUST the host
1. Decker should be able to 'repaint' himself and other Icons, possibly confusing the host as to which icon is bad

U) Evasion or IC rating should be the TN for cybercombat tests, IC's attack program for damage

V) Detection factor is overused. Define difference between Evasion and Masking
1. Evasion is Matrix agility, ability to keep out of sight and out of combat.
- TN to hit your icon in matrix combat is based off Evasion
- Interception Factor (IF) starts at Evasion*2 (Rating*2 for IC)
i IF serves as TN for Trace IC to lock on
ii IF affects how other icons can find your icon
iii At low levels, IF is legal, like a spam filter
2. Masking is matrix stealth, the ability of your deck to keep the host from noticing changes made
- DF is Masking*2 (Rating*2 for IC)
- DF is the TN the host uses to RESIST any changes you attempt to make
- DF is the TN other Icons use for Analyze functions
3. Obscure Icon - Complex action, System test vs. TN of Index - Evasion, successes add to IF for X time
4. Distract Icon - opposed test of Skill vs. enemy's Sensor, enemies skill vs. your Evasion. Net successes counter enemy's scanning successes
5. Analyze Icon, like Deep scanning, except successes are cumulative
6. (See also L)

Y) Break scanning into two types
1. Simple scanning, free action, done by default, uses Sensor rating
2. Deep Scanning, complex action, uses Computer Skill + Hacking Pool
3. Both types target all icons on the host, TN equal to Targets IF - Scanner utility, level of success like normal perception test (1 - you see something, 2 - type, etc.) Successes are not cumulative
4. "Mobile" IC would use deep scans, searching icons in apparently random order.


To go over them... I still like L. I liked it when I suggested it. The ability to play tricks like that gives us a wider span of tools to use, and can result in some very cool action scenes, sending the IC off on a false trail.

U was already suggested, but it bears repeating. I still agree.

V I think is a good idea. So far Detection Factor really is the ONLY attribute that really, really matters. Otherwise you get mobbed and wiped in no time. That said, we're hitting into a bit of the issue with IF. In general, our matrix TNs fall into two categories; 4-6, when no utility is used to reduce it, and 8-14, when a utility is basically required. Host statistics are 10-14. Detection Factor is 4-6 (remember, it's an average of the two).

If IF is going to be 2*Evasion, it's in the 8-14 range, and so we need to assume that everyone countering it will be using some utility. What does Trace IC use to reduce IF from 16 to something reasonable? How do other icons ever find your icon?

"DF is the TN the host uses to RESIST any changes you attempt to make" - is this a change from normal, or are you just stating it for completeness?


V1-iii is a given. It's already legal, it should continue to be legal, at any level. Evasion is purely defensive. It's like a firewall.

V3,4 I'm considering. I'd want to see how everything else pans out. I think we're setting it up so at low levels on the tally, it's basically guaranteed you can evade any IC, but once there are multiple pieces of IC after you, you're in trouble. Could be very climactic. Could be a bad idea. Not sure yet. Since both of them allow for Hacking pool to be used though, it definitely favors the hacker, even an average hacker, and means that mid to low level IC are basically laughable except to force you to waste actions.

Please clarify V5. Reading through, they seemed identical except for the note I made.


Y... Neat idea. I think Simple Scanning should be done by default as well as a free action. In addition, I think any icon not trying to hide itself (icons can either have a masking rating, or perhaps can use some other number to hide itself from unauthorized users. No reason to let Joe Blow see your .ini files, even if he can't access them.) But we get into a problem. With your view of the matrix, scanning basically dumps EVERY icon on the host into your field of view. If there are 250 users and 50,000 slave nodes or files, your view is instantly cluttered. Even with filters, it sounds complex.

I'm starting to think that my above mentioned question of space in the matrix is a real debate. If we go with yours, all the icons are in a heap and the tough part isn't finding them, but sorting between useful and useless ones. Mobile IC scans randomly for bad stuff. In mine, the tough part isn't in sorting, but in actual finding and getting to, since you need to know the "folder" or node the thing is in, and you need to actually travel to it. Meanwhile, mobile IC isn't random, since there's actually a node or resource it can start with, and it moves out from there, with everything having some sort of logical position in relation to each other.

Checking the book, I think the problem is because there's a description of a sculpted system. There are buildings, passageways and people, with files and slaves represented by actual items that you have to walk to. Presumably there is an alternative to a sculpted system, but no description seems to exist in the book. So in my mind, when you step out of a sculpted system, you just enter a wire frame version, still with its own topology and relational distances (although not necessarily following euclidean geometry), and it just looks like how we've seen the matrix in innumerable movies. It sounds like you imagine it as a single control panel or even a command line, where everything is at your finger tips and you simply select what you want.

Thoughts? Does this need to be better defined?
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