 AGS - good or bad?, Spin off from SoA/SoLA-thread |
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 Apr 14 2005, 04:14 PM
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Great, I'm a Dragon...  Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698  |
In thread about the upcoming Shadows of... books we become way off topic and ranted about the imo shitty german setting. I started this thread so we can all discuss our opinons about the allied german states.
Personally, i don't like the setting much. Mainly i dislike: - the awakening of the anarchist movement. It's not nearly as strong as the authors wanted it to be. Neither today nor will it in 2060. And it's presented in such a naive and nerdy manner, that i can only sadly shake my head about it. - the different settings: i have the impression that the authors tried to put all the different countries North America has to offer in SR into germany - and completly failed. Germany is too small to split up in a balkan-fashion, with new monarchies, an elven country and even a church-run state. I vote for a drastic change in the german setting. As i said in the other thread, a new unifying dictatorship would be a reasonable variant (in sr, NOT in real life, please don't get me wrong on that) and not backed by a great dragon or immortal elf. |
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Apr 14 2005, 04:55 PM
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
The Authors apparently lack any understanding of what a city in true anarchy is like. Take Berlin, for pete's sake. Not only do they present the most horrendous explanation for how a city of five million can exist both under siege, isolated, and not degenerate into Mogadishu-esque war zone despite the fact that there're militias present that wouldn't look out of place in Liberia (though none really can compare with the crazyness of the Butt Naked brigade; thier imagination apparently lacked for that). No, they also make Berlin - a defunct, anarchic city where every Horst and his brother wield Panthers and Valiants, maniac militias roam the street, and havoc is a fact of daily life a prime investment place! Hello? Is Somalia the nation with Africa's strongest growth rates? No? Why not? Maybe because investors fucking don't want their investment been blown up by some crackhead lunatic, maybe? And not only do all megacorps open shop there, noooo ... they also start building arcologies! Not that this would be a really dead investment, mind you, and not that this would cost them very dearly in terms of security. And it's not like arcologies are damn expensive, and would maybe, just maybe make more sense in a place where they can expect t not be fired at with heavy artillery on a daily basis. Also, while we're at it: Proteus. Renraku paid through the nose for one (1) Arcology in Seattle. Proteus, a second-tier who, countrary to Renraku, is active only in niche markets like "contractors" and environmental adaption by means of genetech, apparently has the money to build five (5) of these things, or rather, pull them out of their ass. and no, that's not enough - they also have to build a space port, and not produce anything valid in their arcoloies! All they do is crazy genetech unethical shit. Very rewarding! The business modfel of the future! Do expensive stuff that will never pay and make you look like assholes! Way to go Proteus!
I second that too. Germany is a small nation, at least in terms of territory. Splitting it um into bits the size of a third of LA and calling these bits 'nations' just doesn't fly. Not to menton that I never grasped how the hell all these crazed monarchies came to be, or why the HELL metahumans seem to prefer quasi-fascist monarchies to some variant of democracy or a good old fashioned secular dictatorship. And none of these meta countries is anyway near valid. Pomorya is such a cheap Tir ripoff, it makes me yelp in pain just to read the chapter on it. The Troll kingdom is a somawhat nice idea, but terribly executed (and, of COURSE, dragon-backed, because it would be economically invalid otherwise. Like all dragons like to back poor downtrodden metas, right? Especially those who have nothing even remotely of interest to them. The dwarf kingdom? Pardon me, this si Shadowrun, not high fantasy! And lastly, the Wesphalia theocracy. Honestly, I cannot believe this was written by Germans. DidS really sounds like someone form abroad who knows Germany only through an travel guide and a "history of Europe for dummies" booklet he stole from grade school. Of all countries I know, Germany is possibly the least religious. Granted, the West is a bit less atheist than the East, but overall, it is almost devoid of any religion in peoples' daily lives. America is faaar more religious. Italy certainly is. Even France is! And Those people afre supposed to just set up a theocracy, perhaps the least likely governmental system in that country? Please. And Saxony, a *monarchy*? Come on. This state is *RED*. Granted, it's run by conservatives, but that's more of a habit. The whole east really swallowed many communist ideals, and one of these is a despising of monarchy. Dueling culture? Puffy nobles? Hello???
Yeap. This is dark future after all, so it should be some sort of dictatorship. And NO FUCKING MONARCHY. Monarchy is so fucking lame. I'd like a military coup, mass executions of useless nobles and Pomorya and Proteus quietly vanishing to the depths of the trash can on the editor's desktop, or at least collapsing. Now that I vented my main qualms about the AGS, I'd like to offer something like a solution to that mess: - the theorcracy is overthrown following one or the other bad deed of the GCC (maybe they're all possessed by Shedim?), and the Bundeswehr takes over, sponsored ny most major companies, who really have had enough of these sausage-eating medieval-minded, anti-cyberware dumbasses. - Berlin's remaining anarchists die of a major plague. Proteus is blamed for using biological weapons against the contained zone. The "liberated" anarchist containment zone is cleansed and developed by Saeder-Krupp, who sets up a bunch of SmogWerk ultry spoil factories of environmental doom there. Some surviving anarchists retreat into abandoned bunkers and tunnels and subway lines and form an anarchist underground there. - One of Proteus' arcoloies is hit by a natural disaster (or internal gene freak revolt), and the freaks they bred in there come running (swimming, crawling, waggling) out, causing a scandal that makes the '51 Marseilles scandal or the London genetech scandal look like minor medical malpractice in comparison. Proteus is dragged before the corporate court, dissolved, and it's assets divided up between the German federal government (who get their Berlin sector), and all megas and major Eurocorps (who get the research, arcologies, survivng staff, space port, and whatever else Proteus was hiding to play with it themselves). - Pomorya suffers a revolution from those polish elves that came pouring in (who are evidently backed by Immortals, who can, for once, really do something that makes the reader happy). The UN sends peacekeepers (mainly donated by the Tirs and Scandinavia) to get things back under control, but cannot keep the nobles there from being lynched by angry polish elves. Then, after soem months of calm, the UN moves out, and either the German gvernment takes over, or some corp does. Or Scandinavia takes it; it'd surely be for the better of Pomorya. - The ruling anarchist party collapses due to the fact that anarchist cannot remain organised by definition. The following political chaos, also known as "year of 20 chancellors", is marked by steadily shifting coalitions between totally clueless parties, and abruptly ended by the German military, backed by several other European govenments, corps, and Japan, taking over the show, relocating the capital to, Karlsruhe (their HQ city), and some iron-fisten Junta taking over. Anarchist revolts are quickly qualled, and most Germans are happy that, because FINALLY; there's order again, and noone would pee on the lawn no more. Remember, it's still Germany. The above is just a bunch of random ideas really, that came to me after reading (most of) DidS2. It's not ideal, but I think combines what is there with the will to make the setting a bit less ludicrous. |
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Apr 14 2005, 06:02 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
There are details I don't like but tha AGS in general is OK to me.
DidS was written in a time when FASA released books like "Neo-Anarchists' Guide to Real Life" or "Neo-Anarchists' Guide to North America"...
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True. But I (and other players I know) have always treated the AGS more or less as a successor to the FRG just with more power in the hands of the state governments, not a bunch of really independent mini-nations. |
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Apr 14 2005, 06:07 PM
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Well yeah, but they REALLY overdid it. I mean, in that phase of SR, neo-anarchists were pretty much like ATTAC is today - a fringe group noone really took seriously, and who neither hdad the influence nor the will to mess with politics. The Anarchist party n Germany is quite the opposite. And it remains that Berlin was WAAAAAY out of line.
Sure, you can house-rule that. It's not that half of these countries would be better suited for Aventurien .... |
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Apr 14 2005, 07:23 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
As DidS describes it (I don't have Brennpunkt: ADL so I don't know if that has been clarified/updated) the ASU is just a spokesperson comitee for various independent groups, not a real political party.
Granted, even though it seems a lot of people like this lawless crazy-as-possible city. And it was (to some extend) fixed back in '96 with "Chrom & Dioxin" - by the same authors/developers! Seems with some years passed by they noticed how weird some of their stuff had been.
Actually, the only thing that doesn't sit right with me is Westphalia. Sure, the awakening brought a new level of spirituality and religiosity, Germans at large are conservative and somewhat xenophobic - but a church-state so radical it split from the Vatican? The other states? Badisch-Pfalz: Their little civil war is a bit silly, but otherwise OK. Brandenburg: OK Saxony: A military dictatorship disguised as pseudo-monarchy. OK to me Franconia: A little bit too much heile Welt for my taste, but at least with shadows. Bavaria: Cosmopolitan Munich opposite xenophobic and barely understandable rural population. OK. Thuringia: OK. I don't like the "hippy-state" thing but that was only shadowtalk. Hesse-Nassau: OK. Nordrhine-Ruhr: OK. Most SR campaigns I've played were set there. The 20 million Rhine-Ruhr plex is what Seattle was supposed to be - a giant sprawl, crowded with people. NGL: OK. As it is actually discussed today to unite the Northern states... Württemberg: OK. Troll Kingdom: A country born from a resistance movement of an oppressed minority. A charismatic man who leads them in war and later declares himself king. Why not? The area is too sparsely populated and the people have other concers than politics - so why democracy? Pomorya: The mini-Tir, complete with racism and nature worshipping. At the same time small, powerless and unimportant. I can live with that. Westrhine-Luxembourg: A Switzerland-style direct democracy, just with a hereditary monarch, founded by Luxembourgian refugees (hence the monarch). The duke happens to be a dwarf which attracts other dwarfs to settle in the new state. Humans are only the second biggest race group. OK to me. Berlin: OK to me. Those who want can set campaigns in the anarchist part. Frankfurt: All glitzy corporate finance city (and 2 million citizens more than Seattle). OK. Hamburg: Well, there are these geography problems concerning flooding and real-world area elevation - but nevertheless an interesting setting. OK. |
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Apr 14 2005, 07:50 PM
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#6
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Well, all the less likely that they could be effectively governed (or have any chance at being elected). Badisch-Pfalz: The civil war is quite stupid, but the land is bearable. Brandenburg: I agree, OK Saxony: The whole monarchy thing is just stupid. This isn't the Liebliche Feld, after all. :P Franconia: I agree, it's kinda alright; one of the more believable states. Bavaria: Also, OK, though I'd have liked it a little less rural. Thuringia: Not really much is known of it, for all I know, but what is is barely alright. Hesse-Nassau: Boring, but alright. Not every region needs (or can logically have) deep shadows. Nordrhine-Ruhr: Best part of the AGS. Only part, except for the North German League I enjoyed reading about. NGL: I kinda like it, though the pollution was a bit overblown, but meh, it is in all of SR. Württemberg: OK. Troll Kingdom: It is not viable economically, it is unbelievable the Trolls would have won against the German army, and the whole Kaltenstein thing is just a cheap cop out. Pomorya: It needs to be blown up, nuff said. By Immortal Elves, preferrably, because it spoils their reputation. It would have been alright if it was a Tir poser state, but the concept was actually a Tir-like elf magic state, and that is just dumb. Besides, where did these elf houses come from? Even more immortals? No sireee, it's the worst part, besides for Berlin. Westrhine-Luxembourg: Dwarves usually are about as rare as Trolls. Where did all these dwarves come from, hunh? Besides, yet another metahuman kingdom ... DUUH! Berlin: Stupid to me, but then again, I know the city quite well. Frankfurt: Kinda alright, one of the better parts. Hamburg: I agree, it was kinda alright OK. Okay, so half the countries was a bit overblown, but WRL, Pomorya, TKS, Berlin, Saxony, Westphalia, those countries blow big time, if you ask me. At the very least, these need a serious overhaul. :) |
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Apr 14 2005, 09:40 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
Which government is it that the ASU is involved in? And in which book?
The thing is, one should not regard it as a monarchy. It is a dictatorship that poses as a monarchy, founded during the Euro-Wars by a general who declared his part of the frontline his turf and made himself duke. He brought order and stability to the region so they let him do as he pleased. And afterwards the military rule was so firmly established that the people had no option but to obey. (And it's obviously one of the "evil" states SR players love to hate, like Aztlan. In the AGS you have the radical clerics, the racist elves and the fascist pseudo-nobles.)
The metahuman resistance (they weren't all trolls) didn't fight the Bundeswehr, just the army of the South German League. And where exactly is this Kaltenstein-connection? I seem to miss this information...
According to SoE Germany has 10% dwarves. This means a total of 9,970,000 (out of 99,700,000). West-Lux has 48% dwarves*. That's 443,520 (out of 924,000). Half a million out of 10 millions. IMHO OK. And the monarchy thing: West-Lux is the successor to Luxembourg. Adolphe III would be the ruler of Luxembourg, had his country not been destroyed by the Cattenom incident**. So it's not a monarchy (and at the same time probably the most democratic state of the AGS, alongside Thuringia) because of it's mainly metahuman people but because it's the successor state to another monarchy ruled by the same family. Adolphe's race is of no concern. Then again, there's this whole "return of the nobility" theme in SoE...
Well, Berlin has changed already and it seems things are changing in Westphalia as well with this whole religious hardliner-vs-reformer conflict in the comet aftermath. * DidS2, p.143, right column, lower half, gives an explanation for the high dwarven percentage. It's debatable of course. ** The meltdown takes place on my 29th birthday. Lucky me. |
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Apr 14 2005, 09:45 PM
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Not to put a wrinkle in y'all's diaper, but there is a little thing called historical precedence to remember. Once upon a time, Germany WAS a tremendous group of mini-nations. As Mark Twain put it once "You couldn't stretch out your legs to sleep without a passport." Now, given that was way, way back in the day...but it shows it's possible, if not likely. |
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Apr 14 2005, 09:58 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
True. But the circumstances were different!
Well, all these German states had existed for centuries before uniting into one nation. The thought that Germany could re-splinter into seperate states again, in this totally different world, after surviving the Euro-Wars, is a little weird. Plus, it's a common theme among AGS haters to (IMHO) exaggerate the whole balkanization thing. It is still one nation with one capital, one currency and one government. The name has changed, the states have been reorganized and the state governments have more power than today. It's not a mini-EU but rather a United States of Germany. |
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Apr 14 2005, 10:31 PM
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
True, but that was quite some time ago. Things have changed, and I just don't see it happen again.
It's about as likely as the Roman Empire rising again would be.
Brennpunkt: ADL, the ASU has made it to strongest power the latest parliamentary elections (if I remember correctly, I just browsed over the book a few days ago before I decided not to buy it; I'll check it out tomorrow again).
DidS2, p. 234 (last page of "Königreich ohne König").
I guess I should be lucky they didn't give the Sorb minority their own nation state too. :P
Depends how you play it, I guess, but at least the Alpers triology (Graue Eminenz Zyklus) left no room for interpretation (the first novel's title, 'the torn nation', sets the mood). Also, the first DidS book emphathised the torn aspect (balkanisation) over the unity. And it just makes no sense.
It seems to me more like a wannabe Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation, just democratic and without a Kaiser. What dies Hannover do? I mean, is it even mentioned in the books? I cannot really rmemeber ... adn mind you Germany today already is as federalised as the US are. |
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Apr 14 2005, 11:04 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
As I said - I don't own B:ADL. That's in fact weird. But I don't know their campaign. Today thousands of people vote PDS although the majority of them would not want a socialist Germany.
Thanks. It's been a while since I last read through DidS2.
But aside from the basic story idea those are easily the worst SR novels ever. They clearly showed Alpers didn't understand what he was writing about.
As I said on the Berlin example: It seems the writers came to their senses in later years. I'm not sure but I seem to remember that some details of Germany were already set before DidS, in one of the Harlequin adventures that took place in Germany. IIRC the flooding of Hamburg, the troll kingdom and the balkanization were established there and the German authors had to work with it.
B:ADL supposedly has a whole chapter about the inner workings of the AGS, its constitution, etc. The federal government in Hannover does stuff concerning all of Germany: Foreign relations, defense, currency, high level crime (BKA, BIS and BGS are federal agencies)
There are differences. AFAIK the way parliamanent and senate work can not be directly compared to our Bundestag and Bundesrat. And in the USA the states are far more independent from the federal government than in Germany. That's why you find a wide variety of laws, crime punishments and even varying levels of democracy there (some states are actually direct democracies like Switzerland, AFAIK). That's why there is this separation between state and federal laws in the movies. Break a federal law and the FBI is hunting you instead of "only" the state police. Here in Germany we have only "federal crimes" as federal law rules over state law (that's why Hessian courts may not issue the death penalty even though it's in their state's constitution). That's also true in the USA but there's comparatively much less federal law. US states even have their own armies (the respective national guards). And IMO the difference between the FRG and the USA is about the same as between the FRG and the AGS. The states have more rights, freedoms and responsibilities but there is still one unifying German government above them, although it's less powerful than today. |
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Apr 14 2005, 11:21 PM
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Oh, if only that were the case ... sadly, getting communism out of peoples' heads is much harder than gettinmg fascism out (mostly). It'll take at least a generation, and the economy isn't making things better.
No, the later Gascoigne & Sargent novels, not to mention Dragonheart, are much, much worse. BTW, do you know any of the new German novels? Are they good?
Yeah, and I recognise that (said that in the SoLA thread already). And my main qualms are with DidS; DidS2 is a step upward.
But we have that too ... with the reform of the reform of grammar, now, there might well not even be coherent grammar any more. I agree federal law has less power in the US, but the FRG is already extremely federal. Anything significantly more federal, like the AGS, is just a confederation, like Serbia and Macedonia, not a real country any more. |
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Apr 15 2005, 10:47 AM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
IMO at their core the Dragonheart novels were not that bad. The thing is, they were lightyears away from SR's "street operatives" theme. They were not runner novels but superhero tales set in the SR universe.
The most recent book I own is the "Matrixfeuer" anthology - it's quite nice. I haven't bought many SR novels in the last years but it seems anything by Lara Möller or Maike Hallmann is OK.
Actually, SoE gives Germany's government type as "Confederated Republic". |
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Apr 15 2005, 11:11 AM
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
Wow. And the German SR and English SR are supposed to be in the same universe???
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Apr 15 2005, 11:15 AM
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
I agree that the ags has some nice and (more or less) well-thought countries, but the overall picture of the german states is not really fitting. Back in german history had been a phase when a lot of small states existed on german soil, but that's over and out. And i heavily doubt that it will ever happen again. Splitting into three or four bigger countries is something else and imo more possible. I could imagine something like a northern alliance (which already exists in sr canon), a souterhn state, a state aroung and including berlin and the independent rhein-ruhr-plex. That would fit much better imo. (wonder what italian players are saying about italy 2060?)
But unimportant however the development of germany 2070 will be, please please please destroy pomyra! Blast it, nuke it, give it a civil war, even bring some shitty Immortal Nazi Elves into it, but please destry the country aka the german veriosn of a Tir. :P |
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Apr 15 2005, 11:16 AM
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#16
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Yep. That's why Germany has it's own Tir-like state. USA got one, even those bloody insel folks in Ireland got their own elven magic kingdom - so we need one too! :rotfl: |
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Apr 15 2005, 02:13 PM
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
All it takes is a healthy dose of crack and suspense of disbelief inside the game world. ;) I'd consider a split into three states - Northern League, Bavarian-Fracnonian-Wurttemberg-Baden alliance, and a new East (especially a new East/West split is possible, in my opinion). Not a fracturing into several statelets, some of them really, really crazed.
Yup. And since we're better than them, we also got a troll and a dwarf state, two neoanarchist paradises (Berlin and Marienbad) in the original AGS, three new AAA corps (which were scaled down in english canon), one of which has no way of making revenue but is spending money like there's no tomorrow (Proteus), and a load of other stuff. And new cars and weapons that come VERY close to munchkinism. Granted, most has been smoothened out somewhat, but a lot of it remains, simply because a complete rewrite would angfer a lotm of fans of that setting. I understand the authors are in a tight spot there, and I respect that. But I want to see sensible change nonetheless. :) |
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Apr 15 2005, 09:00 PM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
If we're knocking things over wholesale with SR4, why not knock things over totally with the German setting?
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Apr 15 2005, 09:17 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
It would piss off a good portion of the German players! While there are the AGS-haters there are also many people who actually like (most of) the German setting. |
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Apr 15 2005, 09:43 PM
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#20
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Well, it COULD use a complete overhaul ... not saying to change history, but move on. Make it somewhat more believable. The Germany SB was twritten, apparently, when Sr was still more of a joke setting, not the very serious cyberpunk game it is now. It just looks wrong in every way imaginable.
I'd like to see a somewhat believable future Germany, not the AGS with a wireless Matrix. At the very least, I'd like to see the Meta Monarchies, Saxonia, Proteus, and Marienbad getting a serious overhaul, respectively be dissolved (especially the Troll Kingdom and Pomorya). |
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Apr 15 2005, 10:59 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
Marienbad is now a part of Czechia so it's of no concern for the future AGS. Changes I'd like to see: - Pomorya: wiped - Troll Kingdom: somehow more believable - Saxony & Westphalia: made less extreme |
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Apr 15 2005, 11:37 PM
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#22
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Yeah, forgot about Westphalia. And Marienbad is Czech now? Isn't the final word still to be spoken about this?
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Apr 16 2005, 04:36 AM
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#23
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
I don't think the german government want Marienbad back. ;)
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Apr 17 2005, 08:20 AM
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#24
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Orichalcon mines ...?
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Apr 17 2005, 03:42 PM
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#25
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Marienbad is definitely Czech these days although how their AGS neighbors are and will swallow such a move is still up in the air.
And as was revealed in Shockwaves, Proteus had a really good way of making money besides genetech, biotech, deepsea mining and licensing their tech. |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 25th April 2024 - 04:58 AM |
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