The Authors apparently lack any understanding of what a city in true anarchy is like. Take Berlin, for pete's sake. Not only do they present the most horrendous explanation for how a city of five million can exist both under siege, isolated, and not degenerate into Mogadishu-esque war zone despite the fact that there're militias present that wouldn't look out of place in Liberia (though none really can compare with the crazyness of the Butt Naked brigade; thier imagination apparently lacked for that). No, they also make Berlin - a defunct, anarchic city where every Horst and his brother wield Panthers and Valiants, maniac militias roam the street, and havoc is a fact of daily life a prime investment place! Hello? Is Somalia the nation with Africa's strongest growth rates? No? Why not? Maybe because investors fucking don't want their investment been blown up by some crackhead lunatic, maybe?
And not only do all megacorps open shop there, noooo ... they also start building arcologies! Not that this would be a really dead investment, mind you, and not that this would cost them very dearly in terms of security. And it's not like arcologies are damn expensive, and would maybe, just maybe make more sense in a place where they can expect t not be fired at with heavy artillery on a daily basis.

Also, while we're at it: Proteus. Renraku paid through the nose for one (1) Arcology in Seattle. Proteus, a second-tier who, countrary to Renraku, is active only in niche markets like "contractors" and environmental adaption by means of genetech, apparently has the money to build five (5) of these things, or rather, pull them out of their ass. and no, that's not enough - they also have to build a space port, and not produce anything valid in their arcoloies! All they do is crazy genetech unethical shit. Very rewarding! The business modfel of the future! Do expensive stuff that will never pay and make you look like assholes! Way to go Proteus!

I second that too. Germany is a small nation, at least in terms of territory. Splitting it um into bits the size of a third of LA and calling these bits 'nations' just doesn't fly. Not to menton that I never grasped how the hell all these crazed monarchies came to be, or why the HELL metahumans seem to prefer quasi-fascist monarchies to some variant of democracy or a good old fashioned secular dictatorship.

And none of these meta countries is anyway near valid. Pomorya is such a cheap Tir ripoff, it makes me yelp in pain just to read the chapter on it. The Troll kingdom is a somawhat nice idea, but terribly executed (and, of COURSE, dragon-backed, because it would be economically invalid otherwise. Like all dragons like to back poor downtrodden metas, right? Especially those who have nothing even remotely of interest to them. The dwarf kingdom? Pardon me, this si Shadowrun, not high fantasy!

And lastly, the Wesphalia theocracy. Honestly, I cannot believe this was written by Germans. DidS really sounds like someone form abroad who knows Germany only through an travel guide and a "history of Europe for dummies" booklet he stole from grade school.

Of all countries I know, Germany is possibly the least religious. Granted, the West is a bit less atheist than the East, but overall, it is almost devoid of any religion in peoples' daily lives. America is faaar more religious. Italy certainly is. Even France is! And Those people afre supposed to just set up a theocracy, perhaps the least likely governmental system in that country? Please.

And Saxony, a *monarchy*? Come on. This state is *RED*. Granted, it's run by conservatives, but that's more of a habit. The whole east really swallowed many communist ideals, and one of these is a despising of monarchy. Dueling culture? Puffy nobles? Hello???

Yeap. This is dark future after all, so it should be some sort of dictatorship. And NO FUCKING MONARCHY. Monarchy is so fucking lame. I'd like a military coup, mass executions of useless nobles and Pomorya and Proteus quietly vanishing to the depths of the trash can on the editor's desktop, or at least collapsing.

Now that I vented my main qualms about the AGS, I'd like to offer something like a solution to that mess:

- the theorcracy is overthrown following one or the other bad deed of the GCC (maybe they're all possessed by Shedim?), and the Bundeswehr takes over, sponsored ny most major companies, who really have had enough of these sausage-eating medieval-minded, anti-cyberware dumbasses.
- Berlin's remaining anarchists die of a major plague. Proteus is blamed for using biological weapons against the contained zone. The "liberated" anarchist containment zone is cleansed and developed by Saeder-Krupp, who sets up a bunch of SmogWerk ultry spoil factories of environmental doom there. Some surviving anarchists retreat into abandoned bunkers and tunnels and subway lines and form an anarchist underground there.
- One of Proteus' arcoloies is hit by a natural disaster (or internal gene freak revolt), and the freaks they bred in there come running (swimming, crawling, waggling) out, causing a scandal that makes the '51 Marseilles scandal or the London genetech scandal look like minor medical malpractice in comparison. Proteus is dragged before the corporate court, dissolved, and it's assets divided up between the German federal government (who get their Berlin sector), and all megas and major Eurocorps (who get the research, arcologies, survivng staff, space port, and whatever else Proteus was hiding to play with it themselves).
- Pomorya suffers a revolution from those polish elves that came pouring in (who are evidently backed by Immortals, who can, for once, really do something that makes the reader happy). The UN sends peacekeepers (mainly donated by the Tirs and Scandinavia) to get things back under control, but cannot keep the nobles there from being lynched by angry polish elves. Then, after soem months of calm, the UN moves out, and either the German gvernment takes over, or some corp does. Or Scandinavia takes it; it'd surely be for the better of Pomorya.
- The ruling anarchist party collapses due to the fact that anarchist cannot remain organised by definition. The following political chaos, also known as "year of 20 chancellors", is marked by steadily shifting coalitions between totally clueless parties, and abruptly ended by the German military, backed by several other European govenments, corps, and Japan, taking over the show, relocating the capital to, Karlsruhe (their HQ city), and some iron-fisten Junta taking over. Anarchist revolts are quickly qualled, and most Germans are happy that, because FINALLY; there's order again, and noone would pee on the lawn no more. Remember, it's still Germany.

The above is just a bunch of random ideas really, that came to me after reading (most of) DidS2. It's not ideal, but I think combines what is there with the will to make the setting a bit less ludicrous.

There are details I don't like but tha AGS in general is OK to me.

DidS was written in a time when FASA released books like "Neo-Anarchists' Guide to Real Life" or "Neo-Anarchists' Guide to North America"...

.
True.
But I (and other players I know) have always treated the AGS more or less as a successor to the FRG just with more power in the hands of the state governments, not a bunch of really independent mini-nations.

Well yeah, but they REALLY overdid it. I mean, in that phase of SR, neo-anarchists were pretty much like ATTAC is today - a fringe group noone really took seriously, and who neither hdad the influence nor the will to mess with politics. The Anarchist party n Germany is quite the opposite. And it remains that Berlin was WAAAAAY out of line.

Sure, you can house-rule that. It's not that half of these countries would be better suited for Aventurien ....

As DidS describes it (I don't have Brennpunkt: ADL so I don't know if that has been clarified/updated) the ASU is just a spokesperson comitee for various independent groups, not a real political party.

Granted, even though it seems a lot of people like this lawless crazy-as-possible city.
And it was (to some extend) fixed back in '96 with "Chrom & Dioxin" - by the same authors/developers!
Seems with some years passed by they noticed how weird some of their stuff had been.

Actually, the only thing that doesn't sit right with me is Westphalia. Sure, the awakening brought a new level of spirituality and religiosity, Germans at large are conservative and somewhat xenophobic - but a church-state so radical it split from the Vatican?

The other states?
Badisch-Pfalz: Their little civil war is a bit silly, but otherwise OK.
Brandenburg: OK
Saxony: A military dictatorship disguised as pseudo-monarchy. OK to me
Franconia: A little bit too much heile Welt for my taste, but at least with shadows.
Bavaria: Cosmopolitan Munich opposite xenophobic and barely understandable rural population. OK.
Thuringia: OK. I don't like the "hippy-state" thing but that was only shadowtalk.
Hesse-Nassau: OK.
Nordrhine-Ruhr: OK. Most SR campaigns I've played were set there. The 20 million Rhine-Ruhr plex is what Seattle was supposed to be - a giant sprawl, crowded with people.
NGL: OK. As it is actually discussed today to unite the Northern states...
Württemberg: OK.
Troll Kingdom: A country born from a resistance movement of an oppressed minority. A charismatic man who leads them in war and later declares himself king. Why not? The area is too sparsely populated and the people have other concers than politics - so why democracy?
Pomorya: The mini-Tir, complete with racism and nature worshipping. At the same time small, powerless and unimportant. I can live with that.
Westrhine-Luxembourg: A Switzerland-style direct democracy, just with a hereditary monarch, founded by Luxembourgian refugees (hence the monarch). The duke happens to be a dwarf which attracts other dwarfs to settle in the new state. Humans are only the second biggest race group. OK to me.
Berlin: OK to me. Those who want can set campaigns in the anarchist part.
Frankfurt: All glitzy corporate finance city (and 2 million citizens more than Seattle). OK.
Hamburg: Well, there are these geography problems concerning flooding and real-world area elevation - but nevertheless an interesting setting. OK.

Well, all the less likely that they could be effectively governed (or have any chance at being elected).

Badisch-Pfalz: The civil war is quite stupid, but the land is bearable.
Brandenburg: I agree, OK
Saxony: The whole monarchy thing is just stupid. This isn't the Liebliche Feld, after all.
Franconia: I agree, it's kinda alright; one of the more believable states.
Bavaria: Also, OK, though I'd have liked it a little less rural.
Thuringia: Not really much is known of it, for all I know, but what is is barely alright.
Hesse-Nassau: Boring, but alright. Not every region needs (or can logically have) deep shadows.
Nordrhine-Ruhr: Best part of the AGS. Only part, except for the North German League I enjoyed reading about.
NGL: I kinda like it, though the pollution was a bit overblown, but meh, it is in all of SR.
Württemberg: OK.
Troll Kingdom: It is not viable economically, it is unbelievable the Trolls would have won against the German army, and the whole Kaltenstein thing is just a cheap cop out.
Pomorya: It needs to be blown up, nuff said. By Immortal Elves, preferrably, because it spoils their reputation. It would have been alright if it was a Tir poser state, but the concept was actually a Tir-like elf magic state, and that is just dumb. Besides, where did these elf houses come from? Even more immortals? No sireee, it's the worst part, besides for Berlin.
Westrhine-Luxembourg: Dwarves usually are about as rare as Trolls. Where did all these dwarves come from, hunh? Besides, yet another metahuman kingdom ... DUUH!
Berlin: Stupid to me, but then again, I know the city quite well.
Frankfurt: Kinda alright, one of the better parts.
Hamburg: I agree, it was kinda alright OK.

Okay, so half the countries was a bit overblown, but WRL, Pomorya, TKS, Berlin, Saxony, Westphalia, those countries blow big time, if you ask me. At the very least, these need a serious overhaul.

Which government is it that the ASU is involved in? And in which book?

The thing is, one should not regard it as a monarchy. It is a dictatorship that poses as a monarchy, founded during the Euro-Wars by a general who declared his part of the frontline his turf and made himself duke.
He brought order and stability to the region so they let him do as he pleased. And afterwards the military rule was so firmly established that the people had no option but to obey.
(And it's obviously one of the "evil" states SR players love to hate, like Aztlan. In the AGS you have the radical clerics, the racist elves and the fascist pseudo-nobles.)

The metahuman resistance (they weren't all trolls) didn't fight the Bundeswehr, just the army of the South German League.
And where exactly is this Kaltenstein-connection? I seem to miss this information...

According to SoE Germany has 10% dwarves. This means a total of 9,970,000 (out of 99,700,000).
West-Lux has 48% dwarves*. That's 443,520 (out of 924,000).
Half a million out of 10 millions. IMHO OK.
And the monarchy thing: West-Lux is the successor to Luxembourg. Adolphe III would be the ruler of Luxembourg, had his country not been destroyed by the Cattenom incident**.
So it's not a monarchy (and at the same time probably the most democratic state of the AGS, alongside Thuringia) because of it's mainly metahuman people but because it's the successor state to another monarchy ruled by the same family. Adolphe's race is of no concern.

Then again, there's this whole "return of the nobility" theme in SoE...

Well, Berlin has changed already and it seems things are changing in Westphalia as well with this whole religious hardliner-vs-reformer conflict in the comet aftermath.

* DidS2, p.143, right column, lower half, gives an explanation for the high dwarven percentage. It's debatable of course.
** The meltdown takes place on my 29th birthday. Lucky me.

Not to put a wrinkle in y'all's diaper, but there is a little thing called historical precedence to remember. Once upon a time, Germany WAS a tremendous group of mini-nations. As Mark Twain put it once "You couldn't stretch out your legs to sleep without a passport."

Now, given that was way, way back in the day...but it shows it's possible, if not likely.

True. But the circumstances were different!

Well, all these German states had existed for centuries before uniting into one nation.
The thought that Germany could re-splinter into seperate states again, in this totally different world, after surviving the Euro-Wars, is a little weird.
Plus, it's a common theme among AGS haters to (IMHO) exaggerate the whole balkanization thing. It is still one nation with one capital, one currency and one government.
The name has changed, the states have been reorganized and the state governments have more power than today.
It's not a mini-EU but rather a United States of Germany.

True, but that was quite some time ago. Things have changed, and I just don't see it happen again.

It's about as likely as the Roman Empire rising again would be.

Brennpunkt: ADL, the ASU has made it to strongest power the latest parliamentary elections (if I remember correctly, I just browsed over the book a few days ago before I decided not to buy it; I'll check it out tomorrow again).

DidS2, p. 234 (last page of "Königreich ohne König").

I guess I should be lucky they didn't give the Sorb minority their own nation state too.

Depends how you play it, I guess, but at least the Alpers triology (Graue Eminenz Zyklus) left no room for interpretation (the first novel's title, 'the torn nation', sets the mood). Also, the first DidS book emphathised the torn aspect (balkanisation) over the unity. And it just makes no sense.

It seems to me more like a wannabe Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation, just democratic and without a Kaiser. What dies Hannover do? I mean, is it even mentioned in the books? I cannot really rmemeber ... adn mind you Germany today already is as federalised as the US are.

As I said - I don't own B:ADL.
That's in fact weird.
But I don't know their campaign. Today thousands of people vote PDS although the majority of them would not want a socialist Germany.

Thanks. It's been a while since I last read through DidS2.

But aside from the basic story idea those are easily the worst SR novels ever. They clearly showed Alpers didn't understand what he was writing about.

As I said on the Berlin example: It seems the writers came to their senses in later years.
I'm not sure but I seem to remember that some details of Germany were already set before DidS, in one of the Harlequin adventures that took place in Germany.
IIRC the flooding of Hamburg, the troll kingdom and the balkanization were established there and the German authors had to work with it.

B:ADL supposedly has a whole chapter about the inner workings of the AGS, its constitution, etc.
The federal government in Hannover does stuff concerning all of Germany: Foreign relations, defense, currency, high level crime (BKA, BIS and BGS are federal agencies)

There are differences.
AFAIK the way parliamanent and senate work can not be directly compared to our Bundestag and Bundesrat.
And in the USA the states are far more independent from the federal government than in Germany. That's why you find a wide variety of laws, crime punishments and even varying levels of democracy there (some states are actually direct democracies like Switzerland, AFAIK).
That's why there is this separation between state and federal laws in the movies. Break a federal law and the FBI is hunting you instead of "only" the state police.
Here in Germany we have only "federal crimes" as federal law rules over state law (that's why Hessian courts may not issue the death penalty even though it's in their state's constitution). That's also true in the USA but there's comparatively much less federal law.
US states even have their own armies (the respective national guards).

And IMO the difference between the FRG and the USA is about the same as between the FRG and the AGS. The states have more rights, freedoms and responsibilities but there is still one unifying German government above them, although it's less powerful than today.

Oh, if only that were the case ... sadly, getting communism out of peoples' heads is much harder than gettinmg fascism out (mostly). It'll take at least a generation, and the economy isn't making things better.

No, the later Gascoigne & Sargent novels, not to mention Dragonheart, are much, much worse. BTW, do you know any of the new German novels? Are they good?

Yeah, and I recognise that (said that in the SoLA thread already). And my main qualms are with DidS; DidS2 is a step upward.

But we have that too ... with the reform of the reform of grammar, now, there might well not even be coherent grammar any more.

I agree federal law has less power in the US, but the FRG is already extremely federal. Anything significantly more federal, like the AGS, is just a confederation, like Serbia and Macedonia, not a real country any more.

IMO at their core the Dragonheart novels were not that bad. The thing is, they were lightyears away from SR's "street operatives" theme.
They were not runner novels but superhero tales set in the SR universe.

The most recent book I own is the "Matrixfeuer" anthology - it's quite nice.
I haven't bought many SR novels in the last years but it seems anything by Lara Möller or Maike Hallmann is OK.

Actually, SoE gives Germany's government type as "Confederated Republic".

Yep.

That's why Germany has it's own Tir-like state. USA got one, even those bloody insel folks in Ireland got their own elven magic kingdom - so we need one too!

All it takes is a healthy dose of crack and suspense of disbelief inside the game world.

I'd consider a split into three states - Northern League, Bavarian-Fracnonian-Wurttemberg-Baden alliance, and a new East (especially a new East/West split is possible, in my opinion). Not a fracturing into several statelets, some of them really, really crazed.

Yup. And since we're better than them, we also got a troll and a dwarf state, two neoanarchist paradises (Berlin and Marienbad) in the original AGS, three new AAA corps (which were scaled down in english canon), one of which has no way of making revenue but is spending money like there's no tomorrow (Proteus), and a load of other stuff. And new cars and weapons that come VERY close to munchkinism.

Granted, most has been smoothened out somewhat, but a lot of it remains, simply because a complete rewrite would angfer a lotm of fans of that setting. I understand the authors are in a tight spot there, and I respect that.

But I want to see sensible change nonetheless.

It would piss off a good portion of the German players!
While there are the AGS-haters there are also many people who actually like (most of) the German setting.

Marienbad is now a part of Czechia so it's of no concern for the future AGS.

Changes I'd like to see:
- Pomorya: wiped
- Troll Kingdom: somehow more believable
- Saxony & Westphalia: made less extreme

They better do.

And as the AGS has been described in German publications, they'd swallow just anything, as the "Confederated Republic" is apparently incapable of any sort of foreign policy, and each state prefers to do it's business by itself. More like the EU, only even mroe dysfunctional. which makes no sense at all, but meh, that's German SR for you.

To give the German setting a fair trial, I'd note only East-Berlin is in the anarchs hands, while the corps are deeply implanted in the Western neighborhoods where there is no anarchism.
They cleaned it in 58 or something like that.

Actually all this is covered from A to Z in the Schockwellen campaign, and perfectly justified there. This is actually the raison d'etre of the campaign.
Perhaps taking a look there would be more profitable than considering the authors are stupid.

The corporate involvement in Anarchist Berlin was originally explained with the lawless state of the city: No experiment is illegal, no environmental laws to obey, no employee rights, neither Black ICE is illegal nor deadly force by corporate guards, industrial espionage (read: Shadowruns) is not illegal, etc.

2055

I won't and can't defend the way the anarchist movement is presented in DiDS, DiDS2, B:ADL or Germany SB because I don't own any of them. Though as a general point, it's fully plausible that the anarchist movement will be stronger by 2060 than today. You may dislike it as an idea or as a part of the setting, but that doesn't make it implausible.

So does you appearantly. A city dominated by anarchists would most likely look something like the Paris commune, Barcelona during the Civil War or like one of the "free cities" established around the world with Copenhagens Christiania as the most promininent. Not like Mogadishu

Though, it doesn't seem like the German authors did anything in that direction either. Having a Anarchist Party entering government indicates that they have no clue about anarchism what so ever. Anarchist parties contradicts nearly any strand of anarchist thougth, and if said party enters government they are no longer anarchists. Anarchists who go soft and create parties and enters governments are known as Greens (and sometimes they take the full turn and become Fascists like Mussolini did).

"Screw government control over your lives, brothers! Elect me as your Anarchy Party leader!"

- Campaign speech, Anarchy Party

Maybe I'm just cynical, but I think human nature would turn just about any city without formalized law and enforcement into the Mog. An "anarchy" founded on peaceful principles would only make this transformation easier.

EDIT: added "enforcment." That's what I was trying to say anyway.

Sorry, those are small scale projects led by fanatics to their cause and populated by adamant followers. No way this would work for a city of five million, especially if the majority is NOT QUITE convinced of that ideology.

Especially if you bring in a 100% tolerance towards all kinds of weaponry. Insta-Mog, no matter how honest the leaders' intentions may have been (and if you read the Germany SB, the whole 'project' was born out of violence, and hence, doomed to mogadize from the beginning).

They always remind me of the Mexican PRI (party of institutionalised revolution). About as ridiculous. The PRI will always be my favourite political party ever, leading even the Monster Raving Loonies Party in Britain.

I can only agree with hermit: a city as crowded as berlin 2060 won't stay peaceful under anarchist rulers for long. Maybe it can work in smaller communities (the one copenhagen is only a small part of the city iirc), but not in a big city where a majority of the population doesn't back the ruling ideas. And honestly, i can't imagine the average berlin inhabitant backing anarchy in a constructive manner.

Yea, if the Sorbs can do it, so could the dandelion eaters ... >_<

And I found the idea that the state withdraws just like that always a bit ludicrous. Well, what can I say, most of DidS1 was nerdy anarchist wannabes daydreaming.

And add that most of these small duchies and fiefdoms actually were subordinate to one of the major players, one way or another (or church territory).

Hahahaha! Good point! Although, with Earthdawn, that underground kingdom can be explained as a forgotten, never reopened Caér. Rhine-Ruhr actually still is the best part, with Pomorya, pre-DidS2 BErlin, and Westphalia competing for the title of worst part.

Sorry, not quite. Actually, Elves (or rather, Elben, Alben or Erlen) are a quite important part of ancient Germanic mythology. Ever wondered why the stinking sludge running through Hamburg was called "Elbe"? Remember Goethe's "Der Erlkoenig" (about tranlates to "the [dark] elf king") from back in school? And who do you think gives you an Albtraum (German for nightmare)?
Elves started out as viking/germanic house and hearth spirits, actually. You'd offer them little gifts like a bowl of milk or some cookies daily in their house elf corner, or they'd be pissed and make all kinds of shit happen. Much like Fey, actually.

I agree with you on their disregard of Germanic/German mythology because the original authors (who no doupt rank among the far left crowd). Quite a pity, as there's a lot more in there than Wagner and the spook Goering made of it, but meh, ideology über alles, right? But there ARE dragons in there too. Remember how Siegfried got his invulnerability? Bathing in dragon blood.

And yes, Westphalia was Prussian for over 200 years, and that left traces. It's just small mindedness again.

I wonder if the original authors really were going for a serious setting when they wrote DidS1. I sure hope not, that'd shed a very unfortunate light on them.

Actually, Tir na nOg isn't that bad, all things considered.
I don't agree with the police-state presentation of Ireland, and they simplified the whole IRA/Northern Ireland problem a bit, but it's not too bad at all.
[Edit]Apart from the bit about slang, and the truly unforgiveable errors like mis-spelling 'Feile' (it would take very little research to get that right...). But then, I'm a linguist, and stuff like that annoys me.[/edit]

As to 'Seelie': 'Seelie' is a term defining an affiliation among the Sidhe, (fey, if you prefer), rather than a term defining the Sidhe themselves.

According to Irish myth, the Daoine Sidhe (or Si, or Sith) did indeed rule Ireland in ancient times (the Tuatha De Danann, Firbolg, and Fomori all come to mind).

The incorporation of 'anti-sidhe' elements into buildings was as much an aspect of Christian practice (refusal/denial of pagan beliefs) as anything else.

I personally know people who believe in the Daoine Sidhe - there are relatives of mine who claim to have heard the Beansidhe crying. It's not exactly a common belief, but it still persists in some places.

Yeah, apart from Fafnir, all I can recall is Nidhoegg and the half-decayed sperm whale St. George called a dragon, stabbed and claimed to have slain (and was made a saint for). Of course, you culd count the Midgaard snake, but that'd be quite stretched already. France and especially Britain (Wales!) have so many more dragon-related legends.

Alright, but so were nordic trolls. All feyfolk are portrayed as smallish and in varying degrees of coboldy-ness. Tolkien-ish elves with pointy ears are a phenomenon that appeared only in modern times (though the Romans sometimes depicted satyrs like that).