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Demosthenes
QUOTE (hermit)
Really? Always thought this was a post-Tolkien interpretation ...

I would guess they followed the same pattern; after all, the cultures in Germany and France at that time very similar and interchanged a lot of concepts.

It's fairly likely, I'd say - not to mention the fact that a lot of old 'fairy'-type myths have been lost or swallowed up by similar ideas (just look at The Other Game with Dryads, Nymphs, Nixies, Pixies, Treants, etc etc etc etc).

Here in Ireland the Sidhe were originally just like people, except that they were magical and lived in the Otherworld.

Cuchulain's father, Lugh Lamhfada, for example, was both a Sidhe and an ancient sun-god (and 3 guesses what 'Lamhfada' or 'Long hand' is actually a reference to. The first two don't count...).
Fionn Mac Cumhal, the hero of the Fianna, is described as being anything from a normal man to a giant (depending on the version of the stories you come across).

These examples come from two different cycles of Irish/Celtic mythology, both of which have a number of echoes in more recent myths, such as Arthurian myth - Gawain and the Green Knight, for example, includes elements from the Ruraiocht, or Ulster Cycle, story 'Bricriu's Feast' - And while Bricriu Bitter-Tongue is a mortal lord in the more recent form of the tale, he also used to be a Duine Sidhe...

(I'll stop now...)
hermit
Okay, I get the point. They were more like heroes than gods, then (like Siegfried)? Were they mortal?

Norse gods also varied in size, btw, Thur especially (and most of the time Loki) are sometimes referred to as Giants ...
MYST1C
QUOTE (hermit)
Although, with Earthdawn, that underground kingdom can be explained as a forgotten, never reopened Caér.

That's obviously the way Alpers wanted it to be when he invented it for his novels.
I like the way DidS2 solved that problem:
Not a lost caer but just a community of dwarven cultists who had one LARP too much and even invented their own "ancient" language and customs.
hermit
Heh. I dunno, the whole caér story actually kinda appealed to me. If only they hadn't tried to press all other main Earthdawn ideas into the AGS too ... >_<
Birdy
QUOTE (hermit)
Okay, I get the point. They were more like heroes than gods, then (like Siegfried)? Were they mortal?

Norse gods also varied in size, btw, Thur especially (and most of the time Loki) are sometimes referred to as Giants ...

Siegfried was quite mortal - after all he died on Hagens Spear (Tip to near-invulnerable heros: Never, never tell your blond wife where you are vulnerable!)

The Norse gods can be hurt and can even be killed during Ragnarock but it takes a bit. Thor is the nordic equivalent to a clichee Hells Angel, running around in his goat-drawn chariot, drinking met, looking for a fight or some nice and willing female. Party on!

Birdy
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (hermit)
- One of Proteus' arcoloies is hit by a natural disaster (or internal gene freak revolt), and the freaks they bred in there come running (swimming, crawling, waggling) out, causing a scandal that makes the '51 Marseilles scandal or the London genetech scandal look like minor medical malpractice in comparison. Proteus is dragged before the corporate court, dissolved, and it's assets divided up between the German federal government (who get their Berlin sector), and all megas and major Eurocorps (who get the research, arcologies, survivng staff, space port, and whatever else Proteus was hiding to play with it themselves).

Isn't that kind of what happened by the end of Shockwaves?
Grinder
QUOTE (M¥$T1C)
QUOTE (hermit)
Although, with Earthdawn, that underground kingdom can be explained as a forgotten, never reopened Caér.

I like the way DidS2 solved that problem:
Not a lost caer but just a community of dwarven cultists who had one LARP too much and even invented their own "ancient" language and customs.

Both "solutions" or "explanaitions" are so crappy that i'm still not sure if i should cry, laugh out loud, giggle or simply burn the book. ohplease.gif
audun
QUOTE (hermit)
Okay, I get the point. They were more like heroes than gods, then (like Siegfried)? Were they mortal?

Norse gods also varied in size, btw, Thur especially (and most of the time Loki) are sometimes referred to as Giants ...

Where are they refered to as Giants? Loki was a Jotun, which is often translated to Giant (Frost Giants) in English. It is somewhat awkard translation as dwarfs also was part of the Jotnir. Thor was not a Jotun, but beeing a god and champion of the Aesir he certainly wasn't small.

QUOTE (Birdy)
The Norse gods can be hurt and can even be killed during Ragnarock but it takes a bit.

Baldur was killed, so can the other gods. Not only during Ragnarok.
QUOTE
Thor is the nordic equivalent to a clichee Hells Angel, running around in his goat-drawn chariot, drinking met, looking for a fight or some nice and willing female. Party on!

Which is why the Scandinavian Vikings in SOE was known as "Viking bikers" untill very late in the development grinbig.gif

Back to the topic of AGS:
Am I correct that Idols was first introduced in the Germany SB? In that case, yet another crappy thing to add the ongoing complaint list.
hermit
QUOTE
(Tip to near-invulnerable heros: Never, never tell your blond wife where you are vulnerable!)

Wasn't the woman in question Kriemhild, who was Giselher's wife? Hmmmm ... been some time since I read the norse sagas ... I may be wrong, but if, then she wasn't even his wife, but only the woman whom he, well, fucked.

Never tell the bimbo wife of your boss your most precious secret. And, even worse, NEVER let her stitch a marker on your coat so your boss' right-hand man can 'protect' that vulnerable spot. Seriously, must've been a wee bit met too much that night.

Also, if bathing in dragon blood that makes you invulnerable, always brush leaves off your shoulders.

QUOTE
Thor is the nordic equivalent to a clichee Hells Angel, running around in his goat-drawn chariot, drinking met, looking for a fight or some nice and willing female. Party on!

Yeah, that's why I love this guy! He also can drink a LOT in one draw, and once infiltrated the Giants' fort dressed up as a woman. That god's a riot!

What was the name of that chariot again? I may desgin a Harley variant with that name, just for fun (and my concept viking biker thur worshipping shaman character).

Just on a side note, the way they treated the Nordic gods realy made me hate the people behind SG-1.

QUOTE
Am I correct that Idols was first introduced in the Germany SB? In that case, yet another crappy thing to add the ongoing complaint list.

For all I know, yes. Seems Wicca was about as strange, yet attractive, to them as anarchism ...

QUOTE
Both "solutions" or "explanations" are so crappy that i'm still not sure if i should cry, laugh out loud, giggle or simply burn the book. ohplease.gif

Actually, given a choice, I like the first better. At least you can develop a storyline around it ... I am doing that, actually. Well, the Caér isn't quite theirs alone though.

But, if in doupt, sell the book via eBay. It's out of print, you may even sell for a decent price.

QUOTE
Isn't that kind of what happened by the end of Shockwaves?

Proteus is dissolved in Shockwaves??
Grinder
QUOTE (hermit)
But, if in doupt, sell the book via eBay. It's out of print, you may even sell for a decent price.

QUOTE
Isn't that kind of what happened by the end of Shockwaves?

Proteus is dissolved in Shockwaves??

Selling books at ebay? Why sould i? wink.gif Better burning DidS before someone else got conrontated with its strange ideas. biggrin.gif

Yep, Proteus got under control of a corporate board or sth. like that. It's long ago since i read Shockwaves. Has some cool runs it in. But kick out the drake-idea.
hermit
Heh. Sounds interesting (and surprisingly reasonable). Though, for all I know, the runs are far too lethal for my character ... I'm already regretting putting her through the hell that is Brainscan, and for all I know, Shockwaves makes Brainscan look like a walk in the park.

Ahem ... what did Proteus make money with, though? Selling monkey mutant ninja monsters to Aztech for security? Populating Madagascar with mutant magical lemurs on behalf of the Greats to scare nosy PCs off their breeding grounds? The manufacture of 100% synthetic apple meets cola snacks (as shown in DidS2)?
Birdy
Not totally up on my Niebelungen either but IIRC:


Brunhild (Ex-Valkirie) fell in love with Siegfried. For various reasons Gunther also wanted her and since she was the original "Red Sonja" (only sleep with a man that could best her in certain test jajaja) Siegfried had to help out using Alberichs cloak. Siegfried also had to help out later (officially because Brunhild used her Belt of Strength to say "I have a headache" to Gunther[actually Gunther got one when he hit the wall]) I have my own option what strength Gunther lacked...

Krimhild was the sister of Gunther (King of Burgund) and Gieselher (there are more brothers) and married Siegfried the same day Brunhild married Gunther. She was the bimbo that stitched the target marker on Siegfrieds shirt.

A tip to all interested in this rather interesting story:

+ DON'T watch the latest movie version. Ms. Locken(sp?) is nice to look at but that is not enough to make this slaughter a good movie

+ A 1950s "two movies" feature from germany (IIRC Die Niebelungen I and II) should be available. Not great but far closer to the original. The end is far uglier than the new movie

+ A classical mythologie book (not one for children unless pre 1960s) should have all the blood and gore including the "All heros fight/die" end at King Etzels court

+ There is a version written from the viewpoint of Hagen of Tronje iirc "Hagen" from Hohlbein. Quite interesting take and a very black Siegfried

+ You absolutly should take the "King Etzel massaker" as a starting point for reading the "Dietrich von Bern" cycle.

Birdy

hermit
Right, I remember Siegfried had to, ummm, help lil' weenie Gunther out with Brunhild (and yes, she noticed the difference). Hilarious, the whole setting ("belt of strength", haha! I don't wanna know what she really did to Gunther ...).

I read the Hohlbein book a few years back; maybe I should read it again. Don't like Hohlbein much myself (though he always has great ideas, I admit that, but his moralism is a bit too smack in the face for my standard).

I watched the first few minutes of the new movie, but when I saw Siegfried, and what a wimp he looked like, I switched off. Hell, even old Schwarzenegger would be a better Siegfried!

I only know a post-60s childrens version of the Saga itself, though. Any idea where I can get a non-bowdlerized version? I want the hunnic massacre scene in all it's gore and glory! wink.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (hermit)
QUOTE
Isn't that kind of what happened by the end of Shockwaves?

Proteus is dissolved in Shockwaves??

Not dissolved, per se. However, it is my understanding that the Corporate Court took over Proteus and gave control of the corp to a board of directors who were legitimately representing the interests of the corps that Proteus was getting its secret funding from, and was part of the conflict with Ares that included a massive naval battle in the Sea of Japan and the Thor shot attack on the Rømø arkoblock.
hermit
Hmm, okay, then they already wrapped Proteus up much like I'd like to see, and I just didn't know.

Colour me ignorant, I suppose. smile.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
Well, this is all second-hand and from translation, but yeah.
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