 Essence & Bio-Index in SR4, penny for your thoughts |
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 Apr 17 2005, 10:21 PM
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#26
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263  |
Besides running out, ummm I'm guessing vampires, windego, etc. are still essense suckers. I wonder if they'll keep some sort of magical healing is hard with low essense bodies? That was by far the biggest, baddest low essense penalty. You could still be healed, but it took a truckload of dice even under ideal conditions to heal more than a couple of boxes. |
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Apr 17 2005, 10:30 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
How often does the average cybered person run into a wendigo? And needing magical healing is annoying--but it's usually a time issue rather than a matter of life and death, since healing takes too long to do in combat; if you have time to get out of combat, you usually have time to get to a hospital or clinic or street doc or somesuch.
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Apr 17 2005, 10:35 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 1-April 05 From: New York City Member No.: 7,275 |
That's only because some people are too blind to see that Superman can easily cream Batman without breaking a sweat. Oh wait, sorry. You may return to your regularly scheduled programming. |
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Apr 17 2005, 10:36 PM
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#29
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Wendigo and other essense sucking threats, I guess that is largely campaign dependant. But for magical healing, couldn't you use extra successes to buy down healing time? If it is a two or more stage infiltration and you have a 30 seconds or so to do a quick patch up that saved you a TN penalty or two was a big deal. Sometimes you found yourself in remote areas or pressed for time (once again campaign dependant). But campaign dependant issues aside, a good part of it is :nuyen:. The more boxes of damage you scrub before you come through the front door of emergency, or the back alley clinic, the cheaper your visit is. A solid 4 or 5 box heal might mean you don't have to go at all. |
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Apr 17 2005, 11:04 PM
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#30
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
If the eyes, forehead, and tricep were all from the same living being and have been since the beginning, then there would be no patchwork. It's when you graft on foreign tissue that's the question. The way I envision it, the foreign tissue retains it's own aura, which is where you get a "patchwork quilt" effect. From best I can tell, you see the two auras blending together to form a new whole, albeit a whole that's "damaged" with respects to comparisons with the physical, resulting in essence loss. Getting back to the "would parasites cost essence" question, you indicated that you regarded the epithelial layer as the outside of the body. Would it not be a valid technique then, to use the genetic manipulation techniques available in SR's time to make the body grow a small pocket-like cavity lined with epithelial cells, where ever you needed the bioware to be implanted, and then implant the bioware into that cavity? Such a technique wouldn't work for all bioware, of course; it'd be rather inappropriate for muscle augmenting type bioware, but for many of the glandular types, they wouldn't be impacted if they were directly impacted into the body or implanted into an epithelial pocket. |
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Apr 17 2005, 11:42 PM
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#31
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
We still have Essence-drainers. Magical healing is still a problem for low-Essence characters. There might be some more problems for low-Essence types; I've pushed for a long time to have more of an in-game effect for that condition. I don't know how that's going to shake out right now. |
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Apr 17 2005, 11:42 PM
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#32
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
Depends entirely on the game, but in mine...more often than you might think. For sure more often than some of my characters would like. (Well, not wendigos, but vampires and banshees for sure.)
Not necessarily. It depends on your situation, but there's not as much opportunity to get to a hospital as you seem to believe. I suppose it's a GM-to-GM thing, but I know that magical healing is a pretty big part of what keeps some of the PCs in my group alive. |
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Apr 18 2005, 12:11 AM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 775 Joined: 31-March 05 From: florida Member No.: 7,273 |
you know what patrick, i found a quick cure for vampires, 3 round burst from an AS-7 with flechette but hey thats me the heavier firepower guy,
no i dont play a street sam, why do i look like one? |
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Apr 18 2005, 12:13 AM
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#34
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
I'm waiting for someone to jump in with the token "If you have had to resort to magical healing then the run was already a failure." comment.
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Apr 18 2005, 12:18 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Nah. I've got a character that uses magical healing all the time. Then again, he's sleeping with a shaman. He hasn't gotten sick or had any injury last since they started... funny thing that?
Oh, wait.. forgot about the current run, which she didn't come on. He's gotten sick there. For a few hours only though. |
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Apr 18 2005, 12:35 AM
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#36
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
But the costs for flowers, and diamond studded fetishes? :eek: :eek: :eek: |
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Apr 18 2005, 03:02 AM
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#37
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I seem to recall something about Bioware being all but impossible to spot outside of a medical exam, even with Assensing. If this is true, it seems to go a long way towards refuting your perception of seperate auras. |
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Apr 18 2005, 03:35 AM
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#38
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Agreed. I'll have to hit my books again. |
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Apr 18 2005, 03:36 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
I'm proposing something that would give a consistent view for bioware taking a bit of essence in SR4. In SR3, the bioware section says that nothing can detect bioware aside from exploratory surgery (which is silly, since MRI has more than enough resolution to detect many kinds of bioware), but it doesn't bother mentioning assensing, which can detect a lot of other physical conditions that can't be detected aside from exploratory surgery.
So unless there's some FAQ that says one way or the other, I don't think it's clear. If you look at the kinds of things you can see with 5+ assensing successes (in the core book), it'd be a miracle if bioware didn't show up at all. |
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Apr 18 2005, 05:24 PM
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#40
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
I am thinking that whatever is decided for Essence-Bio-whatever number, it would be more useful to "count-up" instead of "count down" to zero. This could potentially allow for *alot* of extra cyber/bioware, but make calculating penalties or monitoring thresholds much easier. It would also remove the "10-Essence" math that always seemes clunky and out-of-place in how SR seems to work.
Depending on how (and if) SR4 does a more complete job of explaining the relationship between Cyberware, Bioware and a Essence-Bio-whatever attribute(s), I still think there should be some inherent "loss of humanity" type penalty for approaching some threshold number, especially for things like magic or social skill tests. This of coarse if Essence-Bio-whatever is defined as "losing touch with humanity", although given the nature of Bioware vs. Cyberware, I suppose you could make an argument either way. As an example: For each point (rounding-up) of Essence-Bio-whatever, you'd remove 1-die from any Magical Test. You still have to account somehow casting things over your Magic Attribute, since you'd lose that immediate (and rarely used) mechanic. Health spells might remove 1-die for each point of Essence-Bio-whatever the target has, etc. for types of spells. Social Tests (unless appropriate) would incurr the same penalty but have it apply only if the attribute > 4 (threshold) was met. Just some thoughts. |
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Apr 18 2005, 05:31 PM
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#41
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Target Group: Members Posts: 91 Joined: 23-January 05 From: Washington, DC Member No.: 7,007 |
Here is an idea unlikely to affect anything: You could have variable levels of bio/essence penalities just like with damage. For example, if you have a total of one point worth of bio/essence penalities then you would be at "light" modification (-1 to dice magical/social tests or something). At three points of bio/essence loss you're at "moderate" modification. At six points you're at "severe" modification and at 10 points or more you're officially a cyberzombie (no magical/social tests). :cyber:
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Apr 18 2005, 05:49 PM
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#42
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Hmm this is an interesting idea although I'd not like the idea of another "10-slot box" lingering around though. This is something along the lines of what I am thinking. |
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Apr 20 2005, 03:40 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,118 |
Oh, just to comment on the earlier idea that a wendigo is trouble for a highly cybered character... they're really not. Essence Drain is, in the existing rules, something that is mechanically and descriptively left nebulous, except for the iterated fact that it requires a helpless subject and minutes of uninterrupted time. I think if the samurai is helpless and in the presence of a hostile wendigo, he's pretty much screwed regardless of how high or low his Essence is. At least, with lower Essence, it'll be quicker.
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Apr 20 2005, 04:43 AM
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#44
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I agree. This isn't AD&D, where the Vampire just has to touch a person to drain a couple of levels.
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Apr 20 2005, 06:42 AM
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#45
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Depends entirely on timing, how fast the cavlary can get there. :) Remember that the essense sucker is feeding, and is very unlikely to outright kill and waste a potential meal. But I do agree that it is generally a lesser issue than harder magical healing if only for the relative infrequency of it mattering. |
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Apr 20 2005, 06:52 AM
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#46
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
The increased difficulty of magical healing isn't all that huge a deal, either, when you remember that for a minor essence/bio index expenditure, your average street sammie can (and likely will) be completely unbothered by wound modifiers, meaning that he's either dead or effortlessly killing bad guys, and there's not much room or need for magical healing in between. I've yet to run into a situation where any sammie I've seen has ever needed magical healing (and not just been able to tough it out 'till the end of the fight/session/game/adventure/whatever, and wait for DocWagon to pick his ass up).
But even with my general scorn for those who list higher spellcasting TNs as a downside of a low Essence, I understand it's possible, as opposed to people who seem so concerned about what a terrible weakness and vulnerability a low Essence is if you're fighting a vampire or similar. If the thing's got a street sam helpless and is feeding off him, it means it could have killed him anyways -- his low Essence isn't the problem, his getting his ass handed to him is. His low Essence isn't really an issue from that point. |
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Apr 20 2005, 07:09 AM
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#47
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
First he had to take extra cyber/bio to get to that point, dumping something else along the way. Sure that stuff is handy to have anyway, but unless you take it the magical healing becomes more of an issue. Then he had to dish out extra cash to DocWagon to stitch his spleen back together. End of the world? Nah. But certainly a pain in the butt. EDIT: A real pain in the butt if it requires hospital stay when there are pressing action items to take care of.
Like i said the essense sucker is unlikely to kill his free meal. Every point the victim has gives him more minutes to live (depending on GM ruling). If the essense sucker knows the victim only has a sliver of a point of essense to suck he might not bother with the risk and just toast him outright (i'm not sure of the proper ruling on this, i don't think this is covered in the rules). If backup is coming to bail his butt out the extra time can matter. If it's not coming it doesn't matter. Entirely senario dependant. |
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Apr 20 2005, 07:22 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,118 |
I think what is trying to be said (or at least what I was trying to say) is that while, yes, having lower Essence makes you more quick to die when an essence-drainer has you helpless before it, you're equally doomed even if it's not a drainer that's got you in that position. A hated enemy, or a serial killer, who has you completely at their mercy, is going to kill you just as dead as the essence-drainer. The essence drainer will, in a few minutes time, have drained away that last fraction of a point of Essence and killed you, sure. In that same time, the aforementioned others would probably have slit your throat from ear-to-ear or performed a coup-de-grace with a shotgun at point-blank range. You're still dead. Plus, I don't think it's yet been addressed how a low Essence likely makes a samurai a less valuable target for a drainer. Compared to a samurai, who's spent away a lot of his delicious, tasty Essence on implants that make him that much more difficult to render helpless and maintain in that state, like a bite-sized snack locked away in a wrought iron wrapper with combination locks, deckers and faces, with higher Essence and (theoretically) less badass combat cyberware, would be like a full three-course meal handed to them on a silver platter. Why work that much harder to take down a combat-ready cyborg that'll barely slake your unholy thirst, when you could take down a weaker and more nutritionally balanced character with less flavor-killing metal bits? |
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Apr 20 2005, 07:31 AM
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#49
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I think that's the kind of comment that FrostyNSO was expecting. "If you get captured the run is already a failure." I'm just pointing out that the extra essense can buy you time that may or may not be important.
Yes indeed. Why subdue someone that isn't a meal when you can just flat out kill them or subdue them, whichever is easiest to you. If you are concerned about life or death, then dead is dead and living but captured is alive for a bit longer. In a few minutes it might not matter, or it might. EDIT: It could go the other way if the essense sucker was able to issolate the juicy victim without having to kill the low essense. How rare or common that senario is only your GM can tell you. :) |
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