Shoudl Shadowrun 4 make magic more common, Awakening in-game? More char. options? Options

[Lilt]

[edit]Doh. Typo in the title. Never good. [/edit]

Well I was trying to make this into a poll but I couldn't tie the options down so I just decided to start a topic instead.

Should Shadowrun 4 make magic more common? Should there be a more varying scale of magical aptitude akin to the 'astral adept' discussions held previously on the shadowrun boards? Should characters have the capacity to awaken mid-game?

I find a world in which characters, in-theory any characters, can eventually awaken an interesting one. Obviously highly cybered characters will have a hard time, but they have other goodies.

Characters buy various magical abilities, ranging from just Astral Perception to full Sorcery and Conjuring of all forms of spirits. In this world it's far more likely that you'll be confounded with a guard or passer-by who can see astral activities, and also leaves a whole world of hurt for magical characters to expand into

There have been limited forms of this seen in previous books, Year of the Comet, for one, has SURGE which can give a character a magic attribute of 1 and astral perception.

So, is this a good idea or a bad one? Can it fit with the SR world (remembering YOTC mini-awakenings) or is the current system set-in-stone? Out of what I suggest here, what works and what doesn't?

[mfb]

yep.

[Ellery]

I like the idea of being able to develop magical ability later on, but I also think it should be a major committment, not something that you do on a dare or because you're bored one weekend.

If entry into magical ability is too easy, it loses its special feeling, it becomes mundane. (This is true both in terms of setting/fiction and rules/point costs--and the two ought to match; if they don't, for players, the rules/point costs will override the fiction in most cases.)

[Eldritch]

nope. That would change a lot of pre-existing canon. It's something you're born with, in your gentic makeup.



Should that completly preclude something cool in game happening? No, but I wouldn't want to see rules for it. That would devalue the whole concept.

[Lilt]

[mfb]

magical talent has not yet been proven to be a genetic trait in SR. there is no conclusive evidence that supports that theory.

and even if there were, very few people come into their awakened powers from birth--most express those powers at some later point in their lives. the current rules don't allow for the expression of those powers after chargen. i think this is a mistake.

[RangerJoe]

[Eldritch]

Yeah, there's been no proof, but IIRc a lot of the books pointed that way.

Yeah, most magic doesn't express till maturity, but that is not an uncommon theme with 'powers', and so it fairly plauseable in a scifi/fantasy campaign.

And if you're gonna change that, then you perhaps you should consider the karma for essence argument as well.

[blakkie]

If you are worrying about canon, there is LOTS of canon of previously unknown magical abilities and properties manifesting for the first time in a grown person. After all the sixth world is still on the magical upswing. It would also help explain gaining only a little bit of magic at first.

[Fortune]

I don't see this meshing with the (strongly hinted at) rules that starting Magic is set at chargen, and can later only be increased via Initiation.

[blakkie]

[Sren]

Don't the cannon (or is it canon) statistics for the number of awakened individuals metion that a large percentage of people with magical potential never realize it?

If that's right, then ainign magic later in life is most definately possible, just not likely, and most definately very difficult. An optional rule for how to deal with a newly awakened character's magic attribute and starting spell wouldn't be outside the setting's ambiance. But now that 4th edition is on the way, its a garuntee that we won't see any official attempt at this. For the new addition, with a magic attribute potentially being treated like all other attributes, maybe simply requiring a magical attribute of at least one at character creation to indicate magical potential will be a sufficient way to deal with such possibilities.

If someone wants a 3rd ed. opinion: a good IC situation (somethign extremely stressful, more stressful than a running firefight with serious physical and stun damage) could awaken a character with magical potential. Charge the character the karma cost of raising his magic attribute from 0 to 6, 42 karma, (maybe penalizing future karma awards to simulate getting used to a whole new world (and new set of senses)) and giving him one force 6 spell that can save him from whatever situation is causing his stress...

Just my two cents...

S'Ren

[Mish]

Magic shouldn't be more common in my opinion. I like it to have a certain rarity in game. It emphasizes the balance between cyber/bio and magic. Also, magic is coming back to the world in a natural cycle, like the seasons each year. Since this happens over a long period of time it should be gradual, again, like seasons.

Becoming a mage int he middle of the game is cool, I've had players do this. Granted I made them pay for it at character creation. Otherwise, no sale. This has more to do with balance than anything but also, when you make your character your not "IC" yet and you can metagame. If you think you may want magic later, you're paying for it. It's also pretty realistic, you're either born with it or you arent.

[Sren]

People being born with magical ability shouldn't get much mroe common, however, the percentage of people who get discovered and trained should significantly increase with the second generation of the awakened being born. While it was likely that magical potential could not be detected shortly after birth with the first generation, the second generation will have the advantage having a chance of being detected before actually awakening (I believe its four or six successes on an assensing test).

While most hospitals wouldn't likely have the spare cash to keep a couple mages around just for maternity duty, but several corporations might hire several older, non-combat, style awakened characters to make such rounds so they could keep records of who is awakened and make sure the propper loyalties are instilled in the family with the newborn mage so they can harvest the children for service later in life.

While this might not, on the surface, increase the number of magical PCs, I never thought of mages truly being "average-joes". If you have magical potential, then you are someone. If you are a "no-one" when you awaken, a corp or government recruits you to make you a "someone important". This sort of treament, makes two main types of people, those loyal to the recruiters, and those who rebel from the recruiters. Either way, mages are taken out of the pool of average joes, and are either PCs or friends/foes of PCs. The PCs in a typical SR game will encounter more awakened (meta)humans than a non-shadowrunner because the awakened are far more likely to end up in important places as test subjects, those who use test subjects, those who protect those who use or are test subjects and those who endanger/kidnap test subject and those who use them... (was that clear as mud?)

In the end, the current priority system still keeps the mage-to-runner ratio rather high, so no serious change will be necessary to reflect the increased number of trained awakened shadowrunners. But it would be nice to see some official, but optional, rules to accomodate different campaign styles, but thats probably my bias for theme games and optional rules.

two more cents...
S'Ren

[mfb]

[Eldritch]

Yeah, it is a little - in regards to char growth later in thier career. If you want to allow someone that was a street sam learn magic, then why not allow the sam to buy essence and improve in that way instead?

[mfb]

because methods already exist for reducing essence costs, effectively granting characters extra essence. but that's irrelevant--allowing characters to awaken post-chargen does not necessarily or logically lead to allowing characters to regrow essence in any way. there's no logical progression, there.

[Charon]

[mintcar]

There should be more magic as the mana level increases. Maybe "casual" magicans is going to be a posability on low levels of the magic attribute as a result of this. I wouldn´t mind alowing for characters to develope magic later on in a game. There wouldn´t be any conflict with the fluff in current canon, me thinks. But I also see merit in some characters never ever being able to get magical abilities. There´s something special in that magic is completely alien to most characters. Something they will never master or even understand.

[Lilt]

Some interesting discussion here... Let me just throw another couple of defenseless, squishy, elves to the ghouls:

Only one of these would really be needed:
New Flaw: Complete Mundane
Cost: -1 (or something small)
Characters with this flaw can never, ever, awaken. Not ever. Not in a million years. This flaw can't be bought off without paying for at-least 1 year's supply of pizza for the GM and other players or giving the GM sexual favours. Yes it's easiest if you're the GM's GF/BF but your character's probably immortal/all-powerful anyway.

New Edge: Magical Potential
Cost: 1, 2 for characters with cyberware (something from 1-5. Astral Sight is 6)
Characters with this flaw have the potential to awaken. They may or may not know this. Some may have been screened and been told they do have magical potential, some may have no idea, some may even have suspicions even though they've never been told and didn't show-up on a screening. Players should refer to table ABC on page 123 for appropriate karma costs for awakening.

Option 1 means the quick route to power is with being mundane. probably enough characters would take option 1 to make after chargen awakenings a thing of rarity.

Option 2 means they need to think in advance wether or not they ever want their character to become awakened. It could be an interesting role-playing point for characters who have been told they have magical potential, and an interesting power-gaming point for the sammie in a group that doesn't do Cash for Karma. Obviously it'd cost more for cybered peeps.

I like option 2.

[NightHaunter]

Awakenings in game can be funny for example when the sam with 4 esseence woth of 'ware awakens.
But I agree that it should be rare.

[Sunshine]

I see this as two different topics:

Topic 1 is sort of game balance: should Samurai Sam be allowed to awaken in midgame when Karl Kombatmage invested a lot of his chargen ressources into the privilege of being/ becoming a Magic user. In my games everybody has the chance to awaken, for a price, that is. Spiritual trainings, Yoga Classes just grab a catalouge of some retreat an you have the prices and time efforts. It takes time and determination. So the "talented" character will still develop faster and easier.

Not to mention the awakend character has better ways to distinguish crap from prime training. (Imagining a cat shaman con artist selling "date with destiny" seminars to execs on a search for meaning in their life. Promotion Material feed: Do you feel psychic? Maybe you are? Visit our Date with Destiny seminars to create "Magick" in your life! brought to you by "Fritz the Cat" and the fine prints read: "Fritz the Cat" is a registered trademark of Aztech Seminars & Conventions International...)

Topic 2 is about how you view your world (of Shadowrun): Is every being able to advance spiritually? IMO yes, you are! Is everybody aware of his "Talent"? No! I see magical ability as a sort of skill that reflects a certain amount of personal and spiritual development and insight in the workings of the world. I view the awakened Character as a sort of talented Person, not as "genetically" Superior (or inferior as in the Humanis Rhetoric) its like a talent with music or sports, you could have it in you without ever touching a piano - specially when you are raised in the barrens. The Mana Level might not yet be high enough for "ungifted" people to sling spells or conjure spirits but the sixth world is still on its way...

;)

[Sharaloth]

Sunshine, I would rapidly and completely disagree with you. I don't think that just anyone should be allowed to awaken. The ability to channel magic is more than just some nebulous amount of 'personal and spiritual development and insight'. In the fiction and the mechanics, being Awakened is very rare (despite the masses of awakened characters that turn up in gaming groups). If it isn't a strictly genetic trait, then it's still something that nine out of ten people will NEVER have a chance of acheiving, no matter what. You can take all the high-priced 'spiritual training' you can cram into the time you're not sleeping, and still be completely mundane, otherwise everybody with time to head down to their local meditation center (or whatever) would be Awakened and have magic of some sort. That you can identify magically gifted people by Assensing them before they Awaken is a sign of this.

Personally, I would only allow a mundane character to Awaken in-game under extreme circumstances. Anything else just violates the established way SR magic works.

[Sunshine]

Hoi Sharaloth, and thanks for your comment

I wrote my post from a GM point of view: How do I balance the game for my players? Do I slap a "bad luck - no mojo for you!" in the face of a player who placed a great effort of character development, drama, story and karma into developing magic? No. Do I start a gaming night out with a sales pitch on "lets gat awakend? No. I think that, despite SR is a dark future cyberpunk setting, my players take the lead in the story and are some sort of (anti) Heroes and therfore special. They fight hard to survive, and they pay a fair price for becoming magic users if they decide to opt for this way. I agree with you, not anyone should be allowed to awaken, but for my players, they are someone, not anyone. I even think that 995 out of 1000 people will NEVER EVER turn "magic" in SR Universe.

Quote: That you can identify magically gifted people by Assensing them before they Awaken is a sign of this.

I dont think assensing is a foolproof method in this process, as I never read - not in the mechanics and not in fiction - that there is a surefire method of identifying magic talent or guaranteeing that somebody is 100% magic free, that is.

Whatever your established way of SR Magic is, I leave the option open to my players. Playing SR is about having a good time by telling a dramatic, cool and thrilling story and if "awakening" in mid game fits to that, then its the way to go.

;)

[Lilt]

Let me ask you this: You've been running a game for a 3-4 months and the sammie has a bucketload of extra karma. He tells you that he'd like to have his character awaken.

What do you say?
You tell him No, as it's not possible after chargen
You tell him No, even though there are listed prices for it, as it doesn't fit with your plans
You tell him that he'll be able to do it by paying for the pizza and giving sexual favours
You tell him Yes, when it's appropriately dramatic. Shame there aren't any prices listed
You tell him Yes, the price is in the book, I think it fits into my story

Another example, the player is a min/maxer who works-out what abilities he wants and has already planned his first 1000 karma. His plans are to awaken once he reaches somewhere around the 100 mark using the prices in the book, which will give him a very powerful character.

What do you say?
You say nothing, then have him shot by 2 snipers when he reaches 99 karma, the frst to bypass his HOG
You say no, as you think that would make his character too powerful
You say no, but you might let someone with no min/max tendancies do it
You say 'fine, but we'll have to find a suitably dramatic way for it to happen'
You say yes, and let him wake-up one day with full magical potential

Feel free to make your own options up.