Shoudl Shadowrun 4 make magic more common, Awakening in-game? More char. options? Options

[Dawnshadow]

You've been running a game for a 3-4 months and the sammie has a bucketload of extra karma. He tells you that he'd like to have his character awaken.

What do you say?

You tell him Yes, when it's appropriately dramatic and can fit appropriately into the plot, and work out the appropriate limitations. (like.. no sorcery, no conjuring, no adept powers.. but able to initiate and take metamagics pertaining to astral perception, adept-style centering, and enchanting are possible, as well as bonding weapon foci)

Min-Maxer:
You say 'fine, but we'll have to find a suitably dramatic way for it to happen, when it's appropriate to the plotline.' And make it appropriately dangerous (possibility of exploding into little min-maxer pieces is always good), difficult (requiring a dragon to perform part of it sounds good), and having side affects that make it different from a normal awakening (The reverse of normal astral perception.. have to work to NOT use it -- makes background counts hellish), plus all the appropriate limitations as given to the Street Sam above.

**
Translation: Not quite Awakening. Not the massive power jump you'd get with mages and adepts, but a surprising increase in power for a Street Sam, and a lot of advancement potential with it.. masking + a few grades of initiate and all of the sudden you have someone who really can always shoot the mage first. Adept centering is devastating.. just think about what it can do coupled with 12 dice + smartlink. Even applying +2 TNs to everything while astrally perceiving (since the ability to turn it off is a lifesaver)

[Bandwidthoracle]

If anything magic needs to be less common, and more "spooky" and regulated.

[Eldritch]

[Lilt]

[Lilt]

[Dawnshadow]

Lilt:

I wouldn't allow them to become adepts or magicians of any sort, because, first off.. I don't like the thought of people suddenly becoming fully awakened just because they threw a buttload of Karma at it after creation.

Secondly.. it's a power jump at an EXTRAORDINARY level to go from competant street sam to competant street sam and "starting" magician, shaman or adept. Even taking into account magic loss from cyberware, or having it give a single magic point, regardless of current essence and bio index.

What doing it my way permits is an increase in power.. moderately potent, with character development. Nothing says that after another few hundred Karma and an appropriate roleplay development -- for instance, befriending a mage group and studying with them, learning sorcery, initiation and so on -- the character couldn't initiate and gain 'sorcery' instead of a metamagic. They wouldn't get any spell points though. They'd have to learn the sorcery skill, and spend karma learning spells. I'd also allow things like the limitted astral projection metamagic.. and then after that, allow them to buy full astral projection.

Basically, they're doing it after character generation, so they're going to have to spend a ton or two of karma and time to become a true mage/shaman.

I really don't know if I'd allow them to become an actual adept though. Probably not, to be honest -- reasoning being, I think the nature of an adept is more internal, and any awakening post char-gen would HAVE to be forced in some way shape or form.. so external. Mages, shamans.. both of those are both internal and external, so could be developed eventually, with time and dedication. Adepts are internal only.. they don't interact with magic on the external side -- so no way to forceable become one.

[Lilt]

A mage can, after character generation, have lots of cyber installed and go part street-sam. If you can reach exactly the same character, exactly the same attributes and skills, then how is it broken to allow it one way and not the other?

Well I think we sortof agree that it should be possible to eventually reach the same sort-of character, what I disagree with is how it should be done. 'Initiations', clawing-up the magic ladder rung-by-rung, is unlike any other characters do it. At-least it's not how it's described as working. Spontaniously summoning a spirit, casting a spell, astrally percieving or projecting are, I think, probably the most common descriptions of people's first manifestations of magical powers. Whilst I agree that it will take time to learn, I think that what we need are modifiers to show that they haven't learnt yet rather than inventing rituals and rites for them to go through.

IE: Congratulations, you just awakened, but if you ever astrally percieve then you're on a 4 point penalty to any actions until you learn to use it properly. You can default to Willpower for sorcery and conjuring, but you can't use spell defense or anything like that until you learn the relevant skills. Perhaps you manifested 1 spell or summoned 1 spirit? Good luck doing anything else until you seriously experiment or enroll and spend a term at a school for the awakened or get a magical tutor.

Now I can see that as a process that everybody who initiates must go through, but not a system that forbids them from essentially being mages. That is to say, not unless lesser forms of awakened character types are created and preferably offered as character options at character generation (IE: Magic C might be only partially awakened without proper training).

I'm just going for consitency here. Regardless of what it costs or should cost, two otherwise identical characters should be able to reach the same skills even though one may have taken Resources A and the other took Magic A at character generation. I suppose that gives you a sortof benchmark to see how much karma it shoudl take... Once the mage has the same worth of equipment as the sammie, the sammie should have had time to accrue and spend karma to attain the same magical potential as the full mage. Seem fair?

[Ellery]

Seems fair (although the devil is in the details), but there's more at issue than just fairness. In particular, this needs to be handled carefully to avoid the perception that magic is common and easy to get. If the fiction says "it's hard", and the rules say "it's easy", players are going to look at the rules and do it because it's easy, and then it will feel easy to them.

So while I am supportive of enabling the possibility of late awakenings, I think that the up-front costs should be large in order to discourage too many people from awakening. It's not just another career choice that you take when you're tired of your other options, according to SR fiction, and to maintain the fiction the rules have to make it easiest to take magic at the beginning.

(Note, for example, that it's easier to create a powerful starting street sam than a powerful starting mage, but if they both end up at the same place, then the mage has had to take the harder/more dangerous path to get there, which is really counterintuitive and not the kind of message you want to send your players to keep in tune with SR mythology.)

[Taki]

I do like the idea of a samy, integrating a whole new world, since he is able to perceive and astrally project ... lot of roleplay possible...
BUT : hey samy, want to throw a spell ? Just initiate a bit more ... Your talent is yet to much deep enclosed under your cyberware.

(increase your magic so it overcome essence loss penalty) ...
That way it is fairly balanced ...

[Ellery]

I play teenagers first learning how to use their magical abilities when I want that kind of roleplaying experience. The "chrome god learns magic" doesn't really fit the SR world very well.

[Taki]

Yes ... I doesn't fit very well in that world. I think it still can't be interesting to play. Since it is balanced and not incentive to power player.
(in my example the player of the samy will need to put the karma for ... 6 initiation to get a modified magic rating of 1, except if the magic score was existing for this character at the creation).
Off course I think using magic worth more than that so the ability to be magicien or adept should be bought in karma as well.

[Fortune]

[Taki]

Yes ... the Sammy has to amass a hudge amount of karam instead of money

[Fortune]

[Lilt]

I think that there are some assumptions being made here that aren't nessecarily true about SR4:

Assumption: That mages will be initially weak as they had to spend a lot on being a mage
Possibilities: All Mages will start-off with a magic attribute of 1 under SR4 rules. This may mean that magic is cheaper, unless magic 1 gets you more than it did under SR3

Assumption: Sammies all still sport 1M :nuyen: pricetags on their purdy, chrome, butts
Possibilities: Who knows what the chargen is really going to be like? Is it not possible that they're, *horror*, making starting characters less powerful and removing the 1M :nuyen: option? Another (possibly more likely) change is that they may need to spend Street Index at chargen, or that street index will be phased-out in favour of some things just costing more.

That still, in-theory, runs the risk of mysterious cyberware. Then-again the mage can, if he affords some OK resources, buy some of the cyber/bio to start-off with whilst I don't think there's any way for the Sammie (unless low-priority mages become a possibility) to start part-mage.

[blakkie]

[nezumi]

I can't comment on how it'd be in SR4. As for SR3... I'd set it up something like this:

There's an ancient artifact (or a series of them), pre fifth age. It's powerful enough that even the dragons take an interest in it. If you want to go after it, feel fee, but it'll be a long journey, and you're going to fight mighty hard for each magic point. Each point costs 20 karma, plus perhaps some more up front for that first one. As you go through your quest with your group (you ain't doing this alone, chummer), they get plenty of karma, you forego at least a good chunk for your power. Plus you need to learn all the skills and spells, and you have penalties until you get practice.

As a kindness, essence holes (not essence currently taken up) will be 'healed' by the process. So if you're a sam, better start selling off that ware.

[Dawnshadow]

Lilt: Quite right, it is very different from other characters doing it.

My reasoning for it is this: It ISN'T the same awakening. They aren't a naturally awakened person, they're someone that had the remotest potential to awaken (90% of the world doesn't even have that) but they wouldn't awaken naturally for the next thousand years or so-- including the mana spikes from the GGD and Comet. They're in the percentile that would be the VERY last to awaken.

So.. if they awaken, they do have to claw their way up to the same power as a mage or shaman. It's not easy -- and it shouldn't be easy. Initiations, well, they're something already built into the rules. Initiating 6 times.. well, to my mind, that sort of price makes sense. They end up actually MORE powerful then a starting mage in many ways, because even with having to take sorcery, conjuring, limited projection, projection, they still have a metamagic that they can take -- and magic 6. And a high initiate grade, so if they take masking, it's really hard to pierce -- along with not having had even the possibility of geasa from implanting the cyberware.

Mages, going the other way? Well.. that's easier karma wise. But they still have the problems with money, surgery, coping with magic loss.. finding a high level clinic to minimize magic loss.

End result, if the two are trying to get to the same point.. well:

Street Sam, 1.01 essence, magic 6. 1 metamagic. Initiate grade 5
Mage1, 1.01 essence, magic 7. 1 metamagic. Initiate grade 1. 5 Geasa.
Mage2, 1.01 essence, magic 2. 1 metamagic. Initiate grade 1.
Mage1b, 1.01 essence, magic 7, 1 metamagic, Initiate grade 6 (initiations to remove Geasa)
Mage2b, 1.01 essence, magic 6, 5 metamagics, Initiate grade 5


You start to see how it works out.. the mage CAN potentially be more powerful, but most possibilities have some form of drawback that the Sam doesn't -- lots of Geasa, tiny magic.. the last 2 are more powerful, but they require the same buttload of Karma the Sam threw into awakening. Really does highlight why taking Geasa is stupid long term though, doesn't it?

[Hell Hound]

As a GM I have always hated the very idea of magically active characters with high amounts of cyberware or bioware. If you want an awakened character that's also a combat monkey go with a Magicians Way adept. I have always felt that heavy cyberware should be the death of magical ability, that's why shadowrun has burned out mages, people who stuck metal in their body and paid the price for it. The idea that an experienced Street Sam, an absolute combat monster, someone who is full of wires, silicone and titanium, someone who has been shot to pieces multiple times (that's put on a deadly wound, that thing that tends to eat up a magic user's power), someone who has probably pumped themselves full of all sorts of wonderfull chemicals to get through a run (another thing that tends to eat of magic points), that character suddenly displays magical ability, even with a magic rating of one, with no geasa of any kind. I don't care how much karma it costs, that's Munchkin City.

However, I do agree that the idea of a character becoming awakened during the course of a campaign has roleplaying potential. With the new SR4 rules requiring Magic to be bought up from zero like any other attribute I personally would allow a player to start with the potential for becoming awakened, that is giving themselves a magic rating of 1 but absolutely no magical skills of any kind. Standard surgery, innoculations, etc should not strip away this point of magic (Awakenings and MitS have implied that people with magical potential don't appear to lose that potential from invasive surgery or injections until after their power expresses) But should that mundane character start inserting cyberware, at least before they express their talent and start to improve it, then the potential is lost.

I really do not want magic to become more common. I think I could live with a change to the way awakened characters are created at CharGen, I have no problem with the current system but I'm prepared to give the new system a look before I make up my mind. What I don't want is a system that allows everyone to throw in a bit of magical ability along with whatever else they decide to be. Magic is rare in Shadowrun, less than 2% of the worlds population have the potential for magic, less than that actually discover and make use of that potential. The power of magic is why magicians so often end up in corporate or government organisations opposing shadowrunners, the variety in human nature is why so many of those magic users reject the corporate or government leash, either before or after it is put on, and join the shadow community or some other shadowy organisation. The rarity of magic is why people fear it, why reactionary groups exist in shadowrun, because magic isn't common enough for people to become exposed to it in a good way and stop being afraid. That is something I really don't want to see change.

[Sunshine]

I really despise the argument of "how rare magic is in SR3 Universe". In my typical game of SR there are 3 to 5 players sitting arround my table. Even if all of them where Magic Users of some sort it wouldn't change the low percentage of awakend Characters in the SR Universe as there are still Billions of mundane people arround. As for statistics, how many people do you think can afford hundrets of thousands of :nuyen: to go samurai?
For a Reflexbooster 1 I could live a low lifestyle for 55 Months or more than 4 and a half years without having to raise a thumb (so much for the "realism") without considering street index, OP Cost, healing, physiotherapiy, etc.

[Hell Hound]

[Ellery]

If you make magic too cheap (or free) at character creation time, it's going to seem as though magic is extremely common and easy to get, though. Because, after all, for players it is extremely easy to get. Even with the current costs of magic, it's hard to maintain the illusion of magicians being rare.

[Eyeless Blond]

I just find it rather odd that magic is considered exceptionally rare at all in SR. 1 in 100 is hardly "Different with a capital D". Hell, I have albinism; that's a population of 1 in 17,000. There are still nearly a million of us. Compared to that, magic is closer to the number of people that need glasses today.

[Ellery]

It's intermediate in rarity--less common than color blindness, about the same as having naturally red hair (as I recall--anyone have hard numbers?) as a Caucasian, and more common than albinism.

[Sunshine]

Should Magic in SR4 be more common? I' d say yes. But I do not think it should be cheaper for players in comparison to SR3. I mean the world should have more eerie mythical - magical elements in it on an everyday basis (Great Wyrm for President!). Sort of St. Elmos Fire in Seattle Bay on some star constellations. Having your pet kitty awaken and hiss at spirits in the astral realm (not to turn flame aura and burn your doss down). Sort of a sneaky awakening to sensitive observers.

I agree with you Hellhound, a sudden "everybody awakenes burst" wouldn't fit SR (as I play it) so it should still be "rare" on a common basis. I read into some Earthdawn Books and figured out (4th World - Mana Level on the decay; 6th World - Mana Level on the rise) that there is a lot of magic up to come into the SR universe, but not right now. It'll take like hundreds of years until the situation will be the other way around - like your somewhat disabled lacking magic ability.

(Makes for a hell lot more Editions to come...) :spin: