 And if it fails?, What happens if SR4 flops? |
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 Apr 20 2005, 02:01 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 296 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Usually under a cat Member No.: 864  |
I'm remembering a lot of similar grumbling that went on when the change from SR2 to SR3 took place, but the line at Gen Con to buy the BABY stretched all the way from one end of the dealers' room to the other, and IIRC the softcover SR3 rulebook sold pretty briskly as well. Now, here we are 7 years later, SR3 is going strong, and the same grumbles are erupting about the SR3-->SR4 change.
Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose.... (I hope French readers will forgive my lack of proper accents there...) I don't think SR4 is going to cause FanPro to fall on its face. I think, as happened with the SR2-->SR3 change, that inevitably some old players are going to be lost (in the sense that they'll stick with SR3, usually, though some will leave completely), but I don't think it's as many as people might fear. I also think that it will pick up some new players, though, if for no other reason than curiosity. If they stick around, and if more new ones are gained than old ones lost, then that will be a good thing for FanPro. They're not totally revamping the game. They're not removing the things that made Shadowrun fun. Hell, I remember the SR1-->SR2 change, which was pretty painful too (though ultimately for the better). Every edition removes some things that people like and adds some other things that other people (sometimes even the same people) like better. I don't know exactly where I'm going with this--just rambling, really--but I just don't think that the doomsaying is warranted, or that the release of SR4 is going to cause the downfall of FanPro (or of FanPro's SR licensing rights from WizKids). I know this isn't a popular subject with a lot of people, but look at the American election--people were swearing up and down that Kerry was going to sweep the country, based on a lot of polls conducted in blue states, but when the votes came in, it didn't quite work that way. I predict that SR4 will do well, not in small part due to a large fan base that's never even heard of Dumpshock and whose opinions are not being heard in this debate. |
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Apr 20 2005, 02:20 AM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Los Coronados | San Ysidro CA Member No.: 106 |
Oh definitely not .. the development staff/team for SR4 probably doesn't have the financial fall-back power that SR3/FASA once did (guessing here). As for FANPRO, should SR4 fail ... I have no real clue but I'd guess they'd brush the development for the whole line under the carpet and go on working with their other major products and probably developing new ones as time/money allow for. Personally, even if I don't like it, I don't want to see it go under. I enjoy reading (and buying) the world material greatly as it lets me and my player group view the world through someone else's viewpoint than our own. Often times that is an influx of new ideas and thus new game considerations/adventures. And as long as PC's can find feasible things to do with their time, then the games go on and people enjoy themselves. It might be just a game ... but it is still *MY GAME* too damn it! :vegm: |
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Apr 20 2005, 07:41 AM
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#28
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
I don't think so too. SR sells good and will do so under the banner of the fourth edition. But when it fails, fanpro will likely drop the line. That's the worst case which isn't likely to happen but it was the initial question of the topic. ;) |
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Apr 20 2005, 02:33 PM
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#29
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I still firmly believe that there are worse fates than the dormancy or even discontinuation of the line.
~J |
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Apr 20 2005, 03:14 PM
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#30
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Ya, but most of those fates involve Lucas Arts purchasing the Shadowrun rights and then advancing the timeline to 2666 when magic cycle is high enough that some humans, particularly in the Caribbean, start genetically expressing as Gungans. :( P.S. I think FanPro has done well by SR3 customers pushing out SoSA and SoA under the old system. For better or worse they have given fresh, long anticiptated books that you can use, without conversion, for SR3 games. They could have held off and stuffed them full of SR4 crunch to try drag people along. |
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Apr 20 2005, 03:32 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642 |
Eh... you mean Gungans right? Not giant mechs-in-space? 'Cause Fanpro's already got a game like that. ;)
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Apr 20 2005, 03:37 PM
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#32
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Heh, Shadowrun with lightsabers.
Lightsabers will be the new STR + 3 M damage reach 1 weapon, whereas katanas will be downgraded to STR + 2 M damage reach 1, and "sword" will be made into STR L so we can all laugh at it. |
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Apr 20 2005, 03:41 PM
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#33
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 24-September 02 From: Centerville, UT Member No.: 3,307 |
I agree. Being out of print actually has a few advantages - you don't have to buy anymore books, big rules changes will never surprise you or invalidate some part of your campaign again, and with no metaplot to keep up with you have a free hand in writing your own. Just about the only real disadvantage to a game going out of print (if you already own the books and the line is fairly complete, as Shadowrun is) is that it can be a bit tougher to get new players excited about a game if they can't go buy their own copies. E-bay to the rescue! |
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Apr 20 2005, 03:41 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642 |
See this thread.
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Apr 20 2005, 03:54 PM
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#35
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Er, ya. Was up all night [mostly] working on some paperwork.
Haven't you played Jedi Knight II? We are talking more like reach 12 or 15. :) |
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Apr 20 2005, 03:57 PM
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#36
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Personally, I think those aren't really advantages to speak of—you can already do this, for example. On the other hand, take Blakkie's example: sometimes it's better for something to end abruptly near the top of its game rather than die the slow death of mediocrity. I don't want Shadowrun to end, but I'd prefer it to end rather than live on as a mockery of its former self. ~J |
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Apr 20 2005, 04:16 PM
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#37
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 24-September 02 From: Centerville, UT Member No.: 3,307 |
Yes you can already do this to some extent, but I've had players in the past who start getting nervous if I ignore the rules or metaplot that came out with the latest and greatest supplement. They start to feel like they're falling behind the curve or are somehow not really playing the game anymore. |
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Apr 20 2005, 04:26 PM
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#38
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Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 16-March 05 Member No.: 7,178 |
Does this mean the 3RD edition rules system is up for grabs?
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Apr 20 2005, 04:28 PM
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#39
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The metaplot has been kidnapped by ninjas. Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the metaplot?
Midnightghost: some of us are already hacking it to pieces over in the main Shadowrun forum. If by "up for grabs" you mean "up for commercial exploitation" the answer is no, but it's probably a golden age of revisions. ~J |
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Apr 20 2005, 04:50 PM
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#40
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Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 16-March 05 Member No.: 7,178 |
By up for grabs I mean, If somebody wanted to make a new game setting using the 3rd ED game mechanics and sell it. If you are revising the old rules you somebody should be saving the changes you guys are making. |
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Apr 20 2005, 04:54 PM
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#41
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
While I admit that I waste a lot of time here, I'd like to think that after conducting a massive revision of the SR3 rules I'm going to at least remember to keep a copy :)
But yeah, unless WizKids licenses or FanPro sublicenses (or reverts for any reason), 3rd is commercially dead as of August. ~J |
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Apr 20 2005, 04:57 PM
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#42
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
While you cannot copyright the concept of roling d6 to hit a fluctuating TN, the stuff that makes SR really SR definately can't be merely repackaged for resale. I suspect even tables of TN modifiers that look suspiciously like SR3 tables in a different font would bring the lawyers of doom down on you. |
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Apr 20 2005, 09:41 PM
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#43
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
I don't think it will fail. There are legions of D20 (the target audience) players who will line up to play because Fanpro will have "simplified" the rules. They will at the very least buy the core book. Once they have done that the setting will keep them. That is assuming FP doesn't screw the pooch so badly on the rules that no one will want to play it.
Someone said it before, no one sets out to build a bad game system, yet it happens. I just hope it doesn't happen to Fanpro. |
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Apr 20 2005, 10:40 PM
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#44
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
I don't think this necessarily will be true. D20 already has their own Urban Arcana variant, which is perfectly suited for folks who want to mix Magic and Modern World or Near Future settings. The SR setting isn't a universal draw that will rope gamers into playing Shadowrun, and it may simply be yet another complicating factor to dissuade potential gamers ("What? I have to learn this new nWOD d6 ripoff dice mechanic AND learn about 70 years of backhistory? I stopped playing Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance and all of those backstory-heavy crap-metaplot games years ago. Screw this."). Worst case scenario: FanPro messes up both the core mechanics and the setting, to the point where it's not appealing to both current and potential players. Not likely to happen (which is why it's the worst case scenario), but it's there. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Apr 20 2005, 10:44 PM
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#45
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Guests |
It's been my experience that the setting kept out more people than it brought in.
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Apr 20 2005, 11:18 PM
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#46
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Really? I stand corrected. I personally always played the game for the mechanic, and the sci-fi ish setting. Not that magic and stuff wasn't there. It just was you know. I didn't go wow elves in modern day. Cause it was Sci-Fi. I stayed cause of the mechanic, and now that is gone so I will probably be gone as well. Well gone in the sense that I will still play SR3. |
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Apr 20 2005, 11:35 PM
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#47
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Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 29-March 05 From: White Sands Missile Range, NM Member No.: 7,255 |
The point of new players not wanting to learn back history is valid. The SR world is so rich, richer than any other RPG I've had experience with, that it all can be extremely intimidating for new players. You just have to learn to feed it to them in small bits. I personally will stick with 3rd Edition mostly because I've got over a grand invested in SR books, and I simply don't want to change game mechanics at this point in my nearly-40 life!
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Apr 20 2005, 11:44 PM
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#48
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Guests |
Well, mechanics slightly came into play from the POV of rolling 1d10 as opposed to nd6, but the most common reason I heard from people who I asked about it was that they didn't buy the idea of metas and magic being so well-accepted in 40 years. Which is generally the POV I held, but got over it by rarely if ever playing metas. I've had 1 ork, 2-3 elves, and a ton of humans, and few magicians. And my PCs, well, all my characters, tend to be pretty racist compared to SR lit. I mean, hell, IRL I hate trolls and dwarves. I hate using them, thinking about them, or acknowledging their existence in SR. |
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Apr 21 2005, 12:03 AM
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#49
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Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 29-March 05 From: White Sands Missile Range, NM Member No.: 7,255 |
Crimsondude, I'd be careful on that issue only in that there are real dwarves, and I know of at least one that plays Shadowrun. This is just to help keep you from getting flamed. It shouldn't have to be said that you were talking about SR races, and not real life little people, but you know how it is today. Cheers.
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Apr 21 2005, 12:23 AM
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#50
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Guests |
If someone's too stupid to not appreciate context and understand that I mean the SR race and not the RL group of "little people" then it only matters to the extent that it's something I have to read around.
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