Smartlinks: usable with Astral Perception?, how far does the interface go? Options

[shadow_scholar]

Maybe this has been brought up before, and if so, my apologies, but I was asked to take this debate to a separate place, so I have.

After a story was told in another thread about how a player used a Smartlink while Astrally Perceiving I immediately thought to myself how, as a GM, I wouldn't allow it. I personally see it this way (no pun intended), Astral Perception is not something dependent upon the eyes, it is more of a sense that is attuned to the fabric of magic, or the Astral Plane, if you will. If Astral Perception were dependent upon sight then blind people wouldn't be able to do it, but according to the SRComp Blindness becomes something like a 2 pt Flaw if the character has Astral Perception, leading me to believe that said character would still be able to Astrally Perceive despite being blind, which leads me to further believe that Astral Perception is not dependent upon physical sight, therefore cyberware that depends upon physical sight to function would not work (as I see it, a Smartlink depends upon a visual crosshair or dot put up in your field of vision to indicate where the gun is pointed, therefore it depends upon physical sight).

Your thoughts?

[FrostyNSO]

agreed.

[Kagetenshi]

The smartlink shows the point of bullet impact. The astral perception shows an aura. If you can line up A with B, you can use a smartlink with astral perception. If you can't line up A with B, then you can't do anything physical to something you see with Astral Perception.

~J

[Taki]

1 I didn't thought we could mix normal vision and astral perception ?
2 I don't think aiming is the same process in Astral (like firing on someone in water, there could be a diffraction angle or anything )
3 By the way I thought astral perception had a +2 SR to mundane action ...
So using normal vision in the same time to use a smartlink ...
4 I don't assume shooting a wall behind were should be a target to be as natural than shooting the target itself ...

So, instead of firing a target (quite a natural action for a runner, so normal SR)
You are speaking of :
1 identify an aura as the target
2 see the point of impact on the wall or whatever on line of sight, and coordinate so it is well center of what you think it correspond on a sight sense assimilation to the aura targeted.
AND you are saying that the 2 help you to be more accurate ??? Wahou ... I don't share your ideas on both astral perception AND smartlink AND the weapon skill ...


So easily I answer : Not possible to have that SR !

[Kagetenshi]

1) Yes, you can. That's what happens when you're astrally perceiving or dual-natured.

2) There's no evidence of that.

3) Yes, due to the distraction of the unaccustomed input. Dual-natured creatures get no such +2.

~J

[hahnsoo]

[Dawnshadow]

Perfectly usable together -- if there's something connecting the two.

IE/ if you'd be blindfiring without the astral perception, then no, not possible.

If, on the other hand, you, for instance, a +4 TN from vision mods (like artificial thermographic in pitch black) then it's not blindfire.. you can see something is there. Just not clearly. But you can see very clearly on astral... which is just an awareness of the astral plane, and not related to sight.. but can stack WITH sight -- otherwise, shoot, you would have the choice of either seeing on astral, or seeing physically, not able to do both.

Logically then, for smartlinks, if you aren't firing blind before the astral, the smartlink modifier applies to using astral.

Besides, even if astral perception isn't sight, most peoples minds would probably translate it INTO sight anyway -- because sight is the primary sense for most human beings.

[Taki]

"sight is the primary sense for most human beings."
Since you can't stay on this forum to read and write about SR4 being deaf
I will PLAY it - even if I am blind lol !!!

[Eldritch]

I'd allow it for cyber Smart link - the player has paid the essence for it, and it is part of him. It's in his vision, the dot projected onto his vision.

Now smart goggles are a different story - Those would be like trying to make out data on a screen, and not translate very well to the astrally perceiving character.


But that's my 2 cents

[blakkie]

Being Blind (the flaw) and closing your eyes are two entirely different things. The Blind flaw cannot be overcome by cyber, something is busted with your [mundane] vision way back in your brain so you never see the cyber generated HUD aiming dot.

Blinking or closing your eyes on the other hand likely still alows you to view the HUD overlay.

[Sharaloth]

When a character astrally perceives their normal senses do not shut down, so any advantage provided by normal senses (thermographic, vision magnification, smartlink, etc) are still valid for use. Astral perception is not sight, but it is primarily, if vaguely, analogous to it. A blind character with astral perception can still see, navigate and otherwise interact with the rest of the world as if they had working eyes, except that they cannot read anything or view electronically displayed images and similar fine points. The simple fact that you can target someone and shoot them with astral perception alone means that your perspective remains the same as with normal vision. Add all these factors together, and you get that vision enhancements will work parallel to astral perception. The Smartlink targeter will not appear in your astral sight, no, but it WILL appear in your normal vision, and you can still use it to target, even if you're using astral perception to locate those targets.

I think the problem you're running into is the idea that astral vision replaces normal vision when active, it doesn't (unless you can come up with a quote to the opposite effect). Using astral perception negates vision modifiers from low light levels, but imposes a +2 penalty for splitting your awareness between two levels of existance (dual-natured, you're on both planes at once). A smartlink is effective at everything up to blindfire (and in some cases, including), so therefore a smartlink can still be used in conjunction with Astral Perception to eliminate light penalties.

[shadow_scholar]

Ah, okay, I see the big difference in points of view, then. I'm going off of the old 1st/2nd edition of Astral Perception, where you can't read text at all, words just look like jumbled glyphs, so that always meant to me that you didn't have regular physical vision available while in Astral. You guys are saying that you can overlay Astral Perception over regular vision, thereby becoming dual natured. Me, as a GM, I wouldn't allow that, unless your character is a special type who was born with the dual nature ability (like a Hellhound or other such Critter with dual natured ability). I'd say being a character born not as a dual natured being that you have to go one or the other, either stay in physical, or go into Astral Perception, no halfsies. But that is just how I interpret Astral Perception in my game world. I'd only allow overlay vision with cyberware/technologial enhancements only.

[hahnsoo]

In SR1/2, you couldn't target spells on invisible/Astral beings while Astrally Perceiving, either (although you can cast spells that can affect Astral space, like Mana Static). A lot has changed in between versions.

[Kagetenshi]

Shadow_Scholar: That may be your interpretation, but it isn't compatible with the books. SR3, page 171: "Characters and creatures using astral perception are referred to as dual beings since they operate on the physical and astral planes simultaneously." Moreover, earlier in that same paragraph it's quite explicit that you're extending your senses rather than replacing any.

~J

[Sharaloth]

Hmm. I only played SR2 for a few sessions, and really didn't get into the rules that much before we switched to SR3, but as far as SR3 goes when astrally perceiving you still have access to all your physical senses. Perhaps it's 'dual-natured' that's confusing then. A quick flip through SR3 tells me that the term I probably should be using is 'dual being'. Dual natured beings (those that are naturally on both planes) do not receive the +2 modifier for mundane actions while perceiving. Dual beings, on the other hand, do. Both still use all of their mundane senses on the physical, and their astral perception sense on the astral, and the two sets of senses run parallel. Yes, you can't read text with astral perception, but it doesn't interfere with you reading stuff using your normal perception. Projecting characters can't read anything, because all they are using is astral vision.

Not allowing normal senses while astrally perceiving is then a house rule (but that's basically the gist of what you said, so okay, no problems then).

[shadow_scholar]

[hahnsoo]

I'll also say that there isn't anything wrong with running a game where Astral Perception gives you ONLY Astral Sight without physical sight (it would make Astral Sight a lot more limited, but be more interesting RP-wise). SR2 had a lot of fun ideas that I was sad to see obsolete, such as grounding or anchoring rules that actually worked. But according to SR3 canon, the dual-being dual-senses interpretation is the way it goes. So folks can't bust anyone's balls for using a Smartlink while using Astral Perception. :)

[toturi]

Yes, primarily because the books do not say that they do not. (Hey, it is me... canon, you know?)

[Cain]

[Smiley]

No way.

[Fortune]

[Critias]

[Fortune]

What if your character follows the Way of the Gunslinger?

[JaronK]

Saying smartlinks don't work when you are using Astral Perception is like saying hearing augmentations don't work when you are smelling anything. They're simply completely unrelated, and thus you can have both active at the same time without one effecting the other.

Now, while Astrally projecting, I would see a problem, but you can't shoot them anyway, so it doesn't much matter.

JaronK

[Demosthenes]

Besides, it'd allow for all kinds of 'entertaining' screw-ups...

[ Spoiler ]

"So then, right, Razor sees this mage flying by, pops the crosshairs on his eyes and lets rip with the Ingram... 'Course, the fragger was astrally projecting, so Razor actually shot some poor slub across the street. Damn fool didn't check the range display before he shot..."