Maybe this has been brought up before, and if so, my apologies, but I was asked to take this debate to a separate place, so I have.

After a story was told in another thread about how a player used a Smartlink while Astrally Perceiving I immediately thought to myself how, as a GM, I wouldn't allow it. I personally see it this way (no pun intended), Astral Perception is not something dependent upon the eyes, it is more of a sense that is attuned to the fabric of magic, or the Astral Plane, if you will. If Astral Perception were dependent upon sight then blind people wouldn't be able to do it, but according to the SRComp Blindness becomes something like a 2 pt Flaw if the character has Astral Perception, leading me to believe that said character would still be able to Astrally Perceive despite being blind, which leads me to further believe that Astral Perception is not dependent upon physical sight, therefore cyberware that depends upon physical sight to function would not work (as I see it, a Smartlink depends upon a visual crosshair or dot put up in your field of vision to indicate where the gun is pointed, therefore it depends upon physical sight).

Your thoughts?

agreed.

The smartlink shows the point of bullet impact. The astral perception shows an aura. If you can line up A with B, you can use a smartlink with astral perception. If you can't line up A with B, then you can't do anything physical to something you see with Astral Perception.

~J

1 I didn't thought we could mix normal vision and astral perception ?
2 I don't think aiming is the same process in Astral (like firing on someone in water, there could be a diffraction angle or anything )
3 By the way I thought astral perception had a +2 SR to mundane action ...
So using normal vision in the same time to use a smartlink ...
4 I don't assume shooting a wall behind were should be a target to be as natural than shooting the target itself ...

So, instead of firing a target (quite a natural action for a runner, so normal SR)
You are speaking of :
1 identify an aura as the target
2 see the point of impact on the wall or whatever on line of sight, and coordinate so it is well center of what you think it correspond on a sight sense assimilation to the aura targeted.
AND you are saying that the 2 help you to be more accurate ??? Wahou ... I don't share your ideas on both astral perception AND smartlink AND the weapon skill ...


So easily I answer : Not possible to have that SR !

1) Yes, you can. That's what happens when you're astrally perceiving or dual-natured.

2) There's no evidence of that.

3) Yes, due to the distraction of the unaccustomed input. Dual-natured creatures get no such +2.

~J

Perfectly usable together -- if there's something connecting the two.

IE/ if you'd be blindfiring without the astral perception, then no, not possible.

If, on the other hand, you, for instance, a +4 TN from vision mods (like artificial thermographic in pitch black) then it's not blindfire.. you can see something is there. Just not clearly. But you can see very clearly on astral... which is just an awareness of the astral plane, and not related to sight.. but can stack WITH sight -- otherwise, shoot, you would have the choice of either seeing on astral, or seeing physically, not able to do both.

Logically then, for smartlinks, if you aren't firing blind before the astral, the smartlink modifier applies to using astral.

Besides, even if astral perception isn't sight, most peoples minds would probably translate it INTO sight anyway -- because sight is the primary sense for most human beings.

"sight is the primary sense for most human beings."
Since you can't stay on this forum to read and write about SR4 being deaf
I will PLAY it - even if I am blind lol !!!

I'd allow it for cyber Smart link - the player has paid the essence for it, and it is part of him. It's in his vision, the dot projected onto his vision.

Now smart goggles are a different story - Those would be like trying to make out data on a screen, and not translate very well to the astrally perceiving character.


But that's my 2 cents

Being Blind (the flaw) and closing your eyes are two entirely different things. The Blind flaw cannot be overcome by cyber, something is busted with your [mundane] vision way back in your brain so you never see the cyber generated HUD aiming dot.

Blinking or closing your eyes on the other hand likely still alows you to view the HUD overlay.

When a character astrally perceives their normal senses do not shut down, so any advantage provided by normal senses (thermographic, vision magnification, smartlink, etc) are still valid for use. Astral perception is not sight, but it is primarily, if vaguely, analogous to it. A blind character with astral perception can still see, navigate and otherwise interact with the rest of the world as if they had working eyes, except that they cannot read anything or view electronically displayed images and similar fine points. The simple fact that you can target someone and shoot them with astral perception alone means that your perspective remains the same as with normal vision. Add all these factors together, and you get that vision enhancements will work parallel to astral perception. The Smartlink targeter will not appear in your astral sight, no, but it WILL appear in your normal vision, and you can still use it to target, even if you're using astral perception to locate those targets.

I think the problem you're running into is the idea that astral vision replaces normal vision when active, it doesn't (unless you can come up with a quote to the opposite effect). Using astral perception negates vision modifiers from low light levels, but imposes a +2 penalty for splitting your awareness between two levels of existance (dual-natured, you're on both planes at once). A smartlink is effective at everything up to blindfire (and in some cases, including), so therefore a smartlink can still be used in conjunction with Astral Perception to eliminate light penalties.

Ah, okay, I see the big difference in points of view, then. I'm going off of the old 1st/2nd edition of Astral Perception, where you can't read text at all, words just look like jumbled glyphs, so that always meant to me that you didn't have regular physical vision available while in Astral. You guys are saying that you can overlay Astral Perception over regular vision, thereby becoming dual natured. Me, as a GM, I wouldn't allow that, unless your character is a special type who was born with the dual nature ability (like a Hellhound or other such Critter with dual natured ability). I'd say being a character born not as a dual natured being that you have to go one or the other, either stay in physical, or go into Astral Perception, no halfsies. But that is just how I interpret Astral Perception in my game world. I'd only allow overlay vision with cyberware/technologial enhancements only.

In SR1/2, you couldn't target spells on invisible/Astral beings while Astrally Perceiving, either (although you can cast spells that can affect Astral space, like Mana Static). A lot has changed in between versions.

Shadow_Scholar: That may be your interpretation, but it isn't compatible with the books. SR3, page 171: "Characters and creatures using astral perception are referred to as dual beings since they operate on the physical and astral planes simultaneously." Moreover, earlier in that same paragraph it's quite explicit that you're extending your senses rather than replacing any.

~J

Hmm. I only played SR2 for a few sessions, and really didn't get into the rules that much before we switched to SR3, but as far as SR3 goes when astrally perceiving you still have access to all your physical senses. Perhaps it's 'dual-natured' that's confusing then. A quick flip through SR3 tells me that the term I probably should be using is 'dual being'. Dual natured beings (those that are naturally on both planes) do not receive the +2 modifier for mundane actions while perceiving. Dual beings, on the other hand, do. Both still use all of their mundane senses on the physical, and their astral perception sense on the astral, and the two sets of senses run parallel. Yes, you can't read text with astral perception, but it doesn't interfere with you reading stuff using your normal perception. Projecting characters can't read anything, because all they are using is astral vision.

Not allowing normal senses while astrally perceiving is then a house rule (but that's basically the gist of what you said, so okay, no problems then).

I'll also say that there isn't anything wrong with running a game where Astral Perception gives you ONLY Astral Sight without physical sight (it would make Astral Sight a lot more limited, but be more interesting RP-wise). SR2 had a lot of fun ideas that I was sad to see obsolete, such as grounding or anchoring rules that actually worked. But according to SR3 canon, the dual-being dual-senses interpretation is the way it goes. So folks can't bust anyone's balls for using a Smartlink while using Astral Perception.

Yes, primarily because the books do not say that they do not. (Hey, it is me... canon, you know?)

No way.

What if your character follows the Way of the Gunslinger?

Saying smartlinks don't work when you are using Astral Perception is like saying hearing augmentations don't work when you are smelling anything. They're simply completely unrelated, and thus you can have both active at the same time without one effecting the other.

Now, while Astrally projecting, I would see a problem, but you can't shoot them anyway, so it doesn't much matter.

JaronK

Besides, it'd allow for all kinds of 'entertaining' screw-ups...

I would allow it even if you where blind firing, (provided you had engulf eyes for a smart unlink to operate at all)

Hear is the logic.

Even in a completely black room your smart gun link will display a projected trajectory of any bullet you fire

Although astral perception dos not require eyes the brain dose interpret it as vision perfectly overlayed on your normal vision (if you have any)

When the astral aura of your target lines up with the projected bullet trajectory you pull the trigger.

Of cause you are taking a physical action while astraly perceiving so you get a +2 TN from that so at short range your target number would be 4 +2 preserving astraly -2 smartlink.

Edward

exactly. the problem with shooting while blind is, you don't know exactly where your gun is pointed, and you don't know what you're shooting at. the smartlink solves half that problem by telling you exactly where your gun is pointed. the -2 makes perfect sense.

Bah. I initially voted no (based on astral "sight" being unlinked to actual vision in any way), then thought for a second and realized that my reasoning didn't make any bloody sense.

So one of those no votes should actually be considered a yes.

I think the question is just does astral vision overlay normal vision. If they do, yes, smartlink should work, since you can see the guy and see the gun. If they don't, they shouldn't work together (or the effect should be negligible). You see these things in your mind and you know where the guy is in relation to yourself, but can't see him (or the red smartlink dot). You can see where your gun is and where you're pointing, but you can't see the guy, you just 'know' where he is.

Sorry to bring this up, but the idea of what exactly the smartlink does for the character, i.e. a "dot" or "trajectory" or whatever, seems to be based on current movie and book/game fiction and not so much on how a smartlink works. I had taken smartlinks to be directly connected to your nervous system, and would therefore be more accurate only because it heightens that... I don't know what it's called, but the inherent accuracy of your arm knowing to point where you're looking. Does this make any sense?

When someone shoots "from the hip", the brain and arm work together to point the weapon approximately where the shooter wants the bullet to go. I believe that a smartlink works to enhance this, and does not give a visual cue, such as a dot. If there is a visual component, then shouldn't a cybereye be a requirement for efficient usage of a smartlink?

If what I have suggested here is true, then it agrees with astral sight working with smartlinks.

I may have just garbled a bunch of nonsense, but I hope you all get my drift.

Using a SL is not a mundane action as you do not need to expend even a Free Action to do so. Any GM that gives that +2... say it with me brothers and sisters... isn't following the rules.

My belief is that when one is dual-natured, via astral perception or standard perception, one retains the existing five senses and adds the sixth "astral sense" to all perceptions of one's surroundings. Given that no senses are actually taken away (unlike when astrally projecting, wherein one's only sense is "astral sense"), I don't see why a smartlink's benefits would cease being able to apply while astrally perceiving.

It's not like characters using astral perception stop being able to read text (text being muddled gibberish conveying emotional intent, while using only astral senses), and sentient dual-natured creatures aren't universally and incurably illiterate. Their existing five senses are still working, and things that boost or rely on those senses ought to continue working, in turn. I assume that the +2 TN# to all purely physical tasks is the result, not of loss of prior-existing physical senses, but of the introduction of a sense that is not natural to the character.

Now, as far as whether or not a blind creature using only astral perception would still gain the benefits of the smartlink, that is contingent on how much of the smartlink's conferred bonues are based upon visual cues. The presence of the retinal display indicates that there are, indeed, visual components of the smartlink's benefit. However, the presence of the limited simsense rig suggest that the smartlink-granted accuracy boost is not entirely based upon the visual.

I'd say that, given what I observed and stated in the above paragraph, it might be a good idea to treat a smartlink, in the hands of someone who is blind, as smartgoggles, i.e. reducing the benefits of the system from -2 to -1. Subsequently, I'd say that a blind character attempting to use smartgoggles would gain no bonuses whatsoever.

WireKnight, can you please tell me the reference to the retinal display? Thanks!

...lowing the rules. Okay.

@Aardvark892

That would be really interesting, but it's not the way Smartlinks work in Canon:

Which is why you get the +2 for firing the gun . . . and a -2 for using the Smartlink. They cancel each other out.

Edit: never mind, no longer relevant.

Lining up a cyber smartlink with an astral target.... sounds like a mundane action to me, and subject to the +2.... which is entire open to interpretation.

You've also got a couple other problems with targeting an invisible man via astral with a smartlink.

How far out does a persons aura extend? There's been different argument on the board of "a few millimeters" to several inches/feet.... if it's just a few millimeters, then a powerball will destroy your armor, backpack etc, even if you resist it entirely. If it's several inches to a foot, then your astral target is bigger than your actual target.

Lastly, the target's aura is surrounded by the aura of the invisibility spell, obscuring it somewhat.

So you'd have visibility/cover modifiers on the astral plane.

So, IMHO, smartlinks would provide no bonus against an invisible target.

Critias, he (and many others) are referring to this post:

Meh.. If Astral is a 'sixth sense', it should work as such.

You can fire based on hearing alone. Any bonuses to your hearing will help you fire better. But it'll still be based only on hearing, and you won't get any bonus from a visual system like a smartlink (realistically speaking) since you can't actually see the target and the smartlink is totally visual.

If you're firing based on sight alone (as most people are), hearing mods don't really help. Smartlink will give you its bonus, but the directional sense thingy in your ears won't. They're different senses.

Now we add a sixth sense. If you are aiming based only off of astral perception, you are not using your vision. It isn't an overlay, it's a psychic awareness. That little dot is still pointing at black, you just know something is out there. Any bonuses to your astral awareness (the enhance aim spell, perhaps) will increase the odds of the shot based on your astral senses, but since you're not using sight at all in the pitch black, the smartlink doesn't come into play any more than it would if you were firing by hearing only.

nezumi -- you'd be absolutely correct.. if people were aiming with any one sense only.

The problem isn't that it's clear what should happen in with only one sense. That's.. fairly obvious, actually.

The problem is, what happens when you're using BOTH senses?

Like, you have artificial thermo (+4 visibility mod), showing you were people are.. and you have astral perception, giving you a sixth sense of where they are, and shoot, just for good measure, you can hear them and have an augmented hearing that tells you where they are.

Why can't you use all three? Just because you have one DOESN'T MEAN the others don't work, and there's nothing inherent saying that they can't all be used.

I mean.. Which would be easier? Shooting some silent person without astral, just the +2 from artificial thermo and smartlink, or shooting some chanting person positively GLOWING on astral, that you can also see with thermo? The TN mods should reflect that, if you've got the relevent stuff.

ShadowGhost brings up an interesting question. First, it isn't exactly clarified how a Smartlink works, I just understand it as a crosshair or dot showing what you're pointing at, but how does it really work? Does it have a lower quality rangefinding feature? So that it could detect the range to target and objects in 3D and place that crosshair where that object is in space? What I'm getting at is that we all assume you're going to firing with your gun straight in front of you, like you were using a regular sight, but what happens when you don't line up your eye with the weapon? Will the Smartlink make adjustments for difference of perspective of your eye and the perspective of where the gun is pointed? Will it adjust for objects in 3D that are either closer or further away? Obviously this problem is automatically solved when you're using a laser sight, the laser will stop when it hits a solid object, using natural physics to adjust for how far or close objects are, but do Smartlinks work the same way? If not, man, that leads me to believe that lasersights truly are better than Smartlinks and the rules are terribly skewed. And if Smartlinks do work the same way then that would lead me to believe that a Smartlink truly isn't effective when trying to target an object with Improved Invisibility. It seems to me that a lasersight would be ineffective also because it would just pass through the invisible person and hit the next solid object behind them, and there's no telling how far away that background object could be.

Man, I hope all that made sense to somebody.

Smartlinks, from how I understood them, extrapolate where there bullet will impact.

They don't need to line up with the eye -- they operate solely from the gun itself, transfered via the induction and displayed. If the person can in no way physically see the target, then they won't give any real benefit, but for anything else, then yes, they should give the benefit.

Laser sights are good, but they don't compensate for the downward force exerted on the bullets -- they do sink. That's why normal rifle sights are calibrated for distance.. to get the same affect on a laser sight, you have to angle it.. and the sight becomes fairly useless when not shooting horizontally (or whichever angle you calculated) unless you take it into account.

Personal belief: a normal smartlink determines the straight-line trajectory of the gun, including angle and so on. Smartlink 2 + rangefinder calculates the bullet 'sink', including the angle of the gun.

All of that being said: Given that particular explanation how smartlinks work, when you know where the target is, can see the target (but not perfectly), you can use the smartlink and astral perception both. Astral perception means you know where the target is, beyond just the indistinct target in the dark or thermographics.. and the smartlink lets you put the bullet right where you want it.

But if the target is Improved Invisible, and the only way you can see them is via astral perception, would the Smartlink automatically put the bullet impact somewhere behind the intended invisible target, like at a wall behind them, or something in the distance? Thereby rendering the Smartlink possibly useless, if you're not lining up the gun sights with your eye, and depending upon the situation? The way I see it is that the Smartlink will only work off of physical information, like normal vision, thermographic, or low light, and that it can't get the visual information it needs only from astral perception, because the two just don't vibe. Which means that, unless you line up the gun sights like you would normally aim, the smartlink could be useless when dealing with someone cloaked with Improved Invisibility.