 Using d10s instead of d6s, Probably mentioned before, but... |
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 Apr 22 2005, 10:48 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 24-September 02 From: Centerville, UT Member No.: 3,307  |
I've said a couple of times on this forum that I would have liked a Shadowrun system that uses d10s instead of d6s. The main reason being that Target Number modifiers would have slightly less effect on the difficulty of a task, since the chance of success drops very sharply for targets above 6 with the normal Shadowrun rules.
I thought of another possible advantage to using d10s: If you read the "0" as zero rather than 10 you get rid of the irritating "probability gaps" that the re-roll and add d6 system has at 6-7, 12-13, and so forth. With that system you would re-roll your ten-siders on a "9" result and could get no advantage from the new die if it comes up zero. Also the lowest target number becomes 1 rather than 2, since you can roll a zero. Switching to d10s without tinkering further with the TNs would make everything a little bit easier than with the standard d6 system, but it would mostly affect the really difficult things (which I tend to feel are too difficult in normal Shadowrun). Thoughts? Zealous flames for the heretic? "C'mon we've heard that a dozen times before?" |
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Apr 22 2005, 10:58 PM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
WIIIIIITCH! BURN HIIIIIIIM!
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Apr 22 2005, 10:59 PM
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#3
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
"C'mon we've heard that a dozen times before" is my response, only because it's already the standard mechanic for the old WOD system. If you want to play with d10s, more power to ya. You're going to have reconcile the Force of spells, Opposed Tests with Attributes, etc. It's probably more trouble than it's worth.
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Apr 23 2005, 12:42 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
Or you could go the SR4/WoD route and just stop screwing around with TNs and make modifiers just modify the number of dice you throw with have thresholds.
The d10's a stupid, ugly little die. Friends don't let friends build systems on dice that aren't Platonic Solids. D4's hurt to step on, d8's and d12's aren't easy to calculate probability wise, leaving the d6 for convenience and the d20 for easy calculations. |
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Apr 23 2005, 12:44 AM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 15-April 05 Member No.: 7,335 |
I dunno...
His idea does sound pretty solid... And d10s are both convenient and easier than d20s for calculation. I'm not a big WoD fan but the system he describes is mathematically sound |
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Apr 23 2005, 12:46 AM
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#6
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Not until you convert the entirety of Shadowrun to accomodate the d10. This means a range of natural "normal" Attributes of 1 to 10, prorating racial abilities, changing all weapon damage codes, etc. It's a large job, more power to ya if you do it. |
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Apr 23 2005, 12:54 AM
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#7
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No more so than subtracting 1 from all rule-of-6 rerolls. ~J |
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Apr 23 2005, 12:58 AM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 15-April 05 Member No.: 7,335 |
But you still have a more limited range because your lowest TN is 2.
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Apr 23 2005, 01:00 AM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 15-April 05 Member No.: 7,335 |
What reason would you have for changing all attributes to be 1-10. Attributes aren't rolled stats in the first place...and you can already have attributes higher than 6. There is no need or reason to change that that I can think of off the top of my head. |
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Apr 23 2005, 01:02 AM
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#10
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Wha? There's exactly one value below the minimum TN in both cases. ~J |
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Apr 23 2005, 01:07 AM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 15-April 05 Member No.: 7,335 |
Not if you're making it 0-9, like he made abundantly clear that you would be doing in this system. |
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Apr 23 2005, 01:13 AM
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#12
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Because you've changed the probabilities of the game. Suddenly, a Manabolt against a Willpower of 6 has a greater number of successes. Suddenly, everyone is going to hit all the time with their guns, because a base TN of 4 is remarkably easy to hit. You have to adjust the statistics and numbers of the game if you change what die you are using. |
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Apr 23 2005, 01:18 AM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 15-April 05 Member No.: 7,335 |
True enough. The racial maximums would need to be increased, but I don't think it's that dramatic of a change. You would only have to raise to 9.
It is a tremendous amount of work but it just takes somebody who' s determined with a great grasp of the rules and some good understanding of probability. |
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Apr 23 2005, 01:18 AM
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#14
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
He also made it abundantly clear that the lowest TN would then be 1. The value below 1 on that die would be 0, the value below 2 on a d6 would be 1. ~J |
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Apr 23 2005, 01:37 AM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
Ok, but what's the point? You can convert it to D100 if you want to, but why bother when the system already works? |
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Apr 23 2005, 07:47 AM
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#16
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 15-April 05 Member No.: 7,335 |
to increase the range of target numbers (which allows for a finer selection of TNs for challenges) and to cut back on the frequency of the Rule of 6. I will admit that some of the run is rerolling a 6 upteen times but...in all seriousness, it should probably not be that easy. It basically gives you the chance to have more realistic outcomes to your challenges... A GM can set up something with a somewhat high target number without the chance of the player blowing it away on some obscene roll (my record for a roll is 107, for example). Sure the chance is still there, but it won't happen nearly as often which makes things much more realistic. With d6, luck is like a built in 3 point edge that everyone has for free. |
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Apr 23 2005, 07:59 AM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
Really? It's too easy? Let's see you pull off the kill shot on a guy running behind partial cover in lowlight. I guarantee he dodges. With all the applicable modifyers, target numbers are right where they should be. If you want to restructure everything to fit D10, that's your house rule. Have fun re-propotioning everything. I just don't see what the point is. |
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Apr 23 2005, 11:12 AM
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#18
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
EDIT : Meh. Lots of work for little payback. I prefer the fixed TN road.
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Apr 23 2005, 11:56 AM
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#19
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
I did the math for 0-9 SR a while back. The numbers looked pretty good. You can add 1 to all 'standard' TNs or just leave it as it is if you prefer to bias the system toward success more. (This is counting the '10' on the d10 as a 0, not a 10).
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Apr 23 2005, 12:23 PM
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#20
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
Just for the hell of it I considered the probability of hitting target 60 using a D6 and a D10 (0-9).
Using a D6 you need 10 6s in a row. Chance on a single die 0.0000000165 & change Using a d10 0-9 you need 6 9s and a 6. Chance on a single die 0.0000004 exactly Strangely your new system designed to make it harder to fluke an obscenely high target number actually made it easier by a factor of 24 times in this case. An easy mistake to make the effect comes from the fact that you have to roll the smaller dice more often. Sorry Edward edit fix my maths This post has been edited by Edward: Apr 23 2005, 04:41 PM |
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Apr 23 2005, 02:07 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642 |
My group switch to d10 a while back. We use the full force for drain codes, revised (almost) all the target numbers up by two. It's okay. I think that we did the minimum amount of work to make it reasonably effective. It would probably be better if we put more of an effort into it.
I am actually looking forward to SR4 and going back to being full canon. It's too much of a headache for a GM that already is doing a lot. |
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Apr 23 2005, 05:18 PM
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#22
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 24-September 02 From: Centerville, UT Member No.: 3,307 |
The basic idea is not to make higher TNs more difficult - it's to make them less difficult.
I see no reason to change the Attribute scale - sure the attribute will be an easier TN, but the resistance rolls will be made on d10s as well, so things should balance out somewhat. |
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Apr 24 2005, 12:24 AM
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#23
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Target Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 14-July 04 Member No.: 6,482 |
i'm probably going to burned at the stake for mentioning this, but if you convert to d8's and add 1 to all target numbers,the rules as described for sr4, become exactly compatable with the WoD rules... assuming you also convert wod to d8's, and take1 off all their target numbers. both systems will then use Stat + skill dice, tn 6, most successes win, ties are ties.
i'm not saying the systems are Exactly the same,but if one point of "edge" happens to cost 3 karma to buy, just remember you read it here first. |
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Apr 24 2005, 02:29 AM
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#24
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 15-April 05 Member No.: 7,335 |
Yeah that's all well and good but it's highly dependant on getting that first roll for the rollover. And also considering that nothing really ever has a TN that high anyway, it's a nonissue... The point is to make it less likely for somebody to hit multiple rerolls to beat any challenge. It's rare when anything has a TN all that high and it's far easier to get that first or even second 1in6 than the 1in10. |
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Apr 24 2005, 02:39 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
..How do you figure?
2 6's in a row: 1 in 36 chance. 1 '9': 1 in 10 chance.. 1 in 10 is a lot better than 1 in 36.. over 3 times better in fact.. |
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