IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Using d10s instead of d6s, Probably mentioned before, but...
Little Bill
post Apr 22 2005, 10:48 PM
Post #1


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 85
Joined: 24-September 02
From: Centerville, UT
Member No.: 3,307



I've said a couple of times on this forum that I would have liked a Shadowrun system that uses d10s instead of d6s. The main reason being that Target Number modifiers would have slightly less effect on the difficulty of a task, since the chance of success drops very sharply for targets above 6 with the normal Shadowrun rules.

I thought of another possible advantage to using d10s: If you read the "0" as zero rather than 10 you get rid of the irritating "probability gaps" that the re-roll and add d6 system has at 6-7, 12-13, and so forth. With that system you would re-roll your ten-siders on a "9" result and could get no advantage from the new die if it comes up zero.
Also the lowest target number becomes 1 rather than 2, since you can roll a zero.

Switching to d10s without tinkering further with the TNs would make everything a little bit easier than with the standard d6 system, but it would mostly affect the really difficult things (which I tend to feel are too difficult in normal Shadowrun).

Thoughts? Zealous flames for the heretic? "C'mon we've heard that a dozen times before?"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Smiley
post Apr 22 2005, 10:58 PM
Post #2


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,102
Joined: 23-March 04
From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room.
Member No.: 6,191



WIIIIIITCH! BURN HIIIIIIIM!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hahnsoo
post Apr 22 2005, 10:59 PM
Post #3


Mr. Johnson
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,587
Joined: 25-January 05
From: Berkeley, CA
Member No.: 7,014



"C'mon we've heard that a dozen times before" is my response, only because it's already the standard mechanic for the old WOD system. If you want to play with d10s, more power to ya. You're going to have reconcile the Force of spells, Opposed Tests with Attributes, etc. It's probably more trouble than it's worth.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Modesitt
post Apr 23 2005, 12:42 AM
Post #4


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 316
Joined: 18-July 03
Member No.: 4,963



Or you could go the SR4/WoD route and just stop screwing around with TNs and make modifiers just modify the number of dice you throw with have thresholds.

The d10's a stupid, ugly little die. Friends don't let friends build systems on dice that aren't Platonic Solids. D4's hurt to step on, d8's and d12's aren't easy to calculate probability wise, leaving the d6 for convenience and the d20 for easy calculations.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kaosaur
post Apr 23 2005, 12:44 AM
Post #5


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 95
Joined: 15-April 05
Member No.: 7,335



I dunno...

His idea does sound pretty solid...
And d10s are both convenient and easier than d20s for calculation.

I'm not a big WoD fan but the system he describes is mathematically sound
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hahnsoo
post Apr 23 2005, 12:46 AM
Post #6


Mr. Johnson
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,587
Joined: 25-January 05
From: Berkeley, CA
Member No.: 7,014



QUOTE (Kaosaur)
I dunno...

His idea does sound pretty solid...
And d10s are both convenient and easier than d20s for calculation.

I'm not a big WoD fan but the system he describes is mathematically sound

Not until you convert the entirety of Shadowrun to accomodate the d10. This means a range of natural "normal" Attributes of 1 to 10, prorating racial abilities, changing all weapon damage codes, etc. It's a large job, more power to ya if you do it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Apr 23 2005, 12:54 AM
Post #7


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 16,888
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



QUOTE (Kaosaur)
I'm not a big WoD fan but the system he describes is mathematically sound

No more so than subtracting 1 from all rule-of-6 rerolls.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kaosaur
post Apr 23 2005, 12:58 AM
Post #8


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 95
Joined: 15-April 05
Member No.: 7,335



But you still have a more limited range because your lowest TN is 2.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kaosaur
post Apr 23 2005, 01:00 AM
Post #9


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 95
Joined: 15-April 05
Member No.: 7,335



QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (Kaosaur @ Apr 22 2005, 07:44 PM)
I dunno...

His idea does sound pretty solid...
And d10s are both convenient and easier than d20s for calculation.

I'm not a big WoD fan but the system he describes is mathematically sound

Not until you convert the entirety of Shadowrun to accomodate the d10. This means a range of natural "normal" Attributes of 1 to 10, prorating racial abilities, changing all weapon damage codes, etc. It's a large job, more power to ya if you do it.

What reason would you have for changing all attributes to be 1-10.

Attributes aren't rolled stats in the first place...and you can already have attributes higher than 6.

There is no need or reason to change that that I can think of off the top of my head.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Apr 23 2005, 01:02 AM
Post #10


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 16,888
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



QUOTE (Kaosaur)
But you still have a more limited range because your lowest TN is 2.

Wha? There's exactly one value below the minimum TN in both cases.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kaosaur
post Apr 23 2005, 01:07 AM
Post #11


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 95
Joined: 15-April 05
Member No.: 7,335



QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Kaosaur @ Apr 22 2005, 07:58 PM)
But you still have a more limited range because your lowest TN is 2.

Wha? There's exactly one value below the minimum TN in both cases.

~J

Not if you're making it 0-9, like he made abundantly clear that you would be doing in this system.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hahnsoo
post Apr 23 2005, 01:13 AM
Post #12


Mr. Johnson
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,587
Joined: 25-January 05
From: Berkeley, CA
Member No.: 7,014



QUOTE (Kaosaur)
What reason would you have for changing all attributes to be 1-10.

Attributes aren't rolled stats in the first place...and you can already have attributes higher than 6.

There is no need or reason to change that that I can think of off the top of my head.

Because you've changed the probabilities of the game. Suddenly, a Manabolt against a Willpower of 6 has a greater number of successes. Suddenly, everyone is going to hit all the time with their guns, because a base TN of 4 is remarkably easy to hit. You have to adjust the statistics and numbers of the game if you change what die you are using.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kaosaur
post Apr 23 2005, 01:18 AM
Post #13


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 95
Joined: 15-April 05
Member No.: 7,335



True enough. The racial maximums would need to be increased, but I don't think it's that dramatic of a change. You would only have to raise to 9.

It is a tremendous amount of work but it just takes somebody who' s determined with a great grasp of the rules and some good understanding of probability.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Apr 23 2005, 01:18 AM
Post #14


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 16,888
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



QUOTE (Kaosaur)
Not if you're making it 0-9, like he made abundantly clear that you would be doing in this system.

He also made it abundantly clear that the lowest TN would then be 1. The value below 1 on that die would be 0, the value below 2 on a d6 would be 1.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Smiley
post Apr 23 2005, 01:37 AM
Post #15


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,102
Joined: 23-March 04
From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room.
Member No.: 6,191



QUOTE (Kaosaur)
True enough. The racial maximums would need to be increased, but I don't think it's that dramatic of a change. You would only have to raise to 9.

It is a tremendous amount of work but it just takes somebody who' s determined with a great grasp of the rules and some good understanding of probability.

Ok, but what's the point? You can convert it to D100 if you want to, but why bother when the system already works?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kaosaur
post Apr 23 2005, 07:47 AM
Post #16


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 95
Joined: 15-April 05
Member No.: 7,335



QUOTE (Smiley)
QUOTE (Kaosaur @ Apr 22 2005, 08:18 PM)
True enough.  The racial maximums would need to be increased, but I don't think it's that dramatic of a change.  You would only have to raise to 9.

It is a tremendous amount of work but it just takes somebody who' s determined with a great grasp of the rules and some good understanding of probability.

Ok, but what's the point? You can convert it to D100 if you want to, but why bother when the system already works?

to increase the range of target numbers (which allows for a finer selection of TNs for challenges) and to cut back on the frequency of the Rule of 6.

I will admit that some of the run is rerolling a 6 upteen times but...in all seriousness, it should probably not be that easy.

It basically gives you the chance to have more realistic outcomes to your challenges...
A GM can set up something with a somewhat high target number without the chance of the player blowing it away on some obscene roll (my record for a roll is 107, for example).

Sure the chance is still there, but it won't happen nearly as often which makes things much more realistic.

With d6, luck is like a built in 3 point edge that everyone has for free.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Smiley
post Apr 23 2005, 07:59 AM
Post #17


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,102
Joined: 23-March 04
From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room.
Member No.: 6,191



QUOTE (Kaosaur)
QUOTE (Smiley @ Apr 22 2005, 08:37 PM)
QUOTE (Kaosaur @ Apr 22 2005, 08:18 PM)
True enough.  The racial maximums would need to be increased, but I don't think it's that dramatic of a change.  You would only have to raise to 9.

It is a tremendous amount of work but it just takes somebody who' s determined with a great grasp of the rules and some good understanding of probability.

Ok, but what's the point? You can convert it to D100 if you want to, but why bother when the system already works?

to increase the range of target numbers (which allows for a finer selection of TNs for challenges) and to cut back on the frequency of the Rule of 6.

I will admit that some of the run is rerolling a 6 upteen times but...in all seriousness, it should probably not be that easy.

It basically gives you the chance to have more realistic outcomes to your challenges...
A GM can set up something with a somewhat high target number without the chance of the player blowing it away on some obscene roll (my record for a roll is 107, for example).

Sure the chance is still there, but it won't happen nearly as often which makes things much more realistic.

With d6, luck is like a built in 3 point edge that everyone has for free.

Really? It's too easy?

Let's see you pull off the kill shot on a guy running behind partial cover in lowlight. I guarantee he dodges. With all the applicable modifyers, target numbers are right where they should be. If you want to restructure everything to fit D10, that's your house rule. Have fun re-propotioning everything. I just don't see what the point is.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Charon
post Apr 23 2005, 11:12 AM
Post #18


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,011
Joined: 15-February 05
From: Montréal, QC, Canada
Member No.: 7,087



EDIT : Meh. Lots of work for little payback. I prefer the fixed TN road.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Crusher Bob
post Apr 23 2005, 11:56 AM
Post #19


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,598
Joined: 15-March 03
From: Hong Kong
Member No.: 4,253



I did the math for 0-9 SR a while back. The numbers looked pretty good. You can add 1 to all 'standard' TNs or just leave it as it is if you prefer to bias the system toward success more. (This is counting the '10' on the d10 as a 0, not a 10).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Edward
post Apr 23 2005, 12:23 PM
Post #20


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,073
Joined: 23-August 04
Member No.: 6,587



Just for the hell of it I considered the probability of hitting target 60 using a D6 and a D10 (0-9).

Using a D6 you need 10 6s in a row. Chance on a single die 0.0000000165 & change
Using a d10 0-9 you need 6 9s and a 6. Chance on a single die 0.0000004 exactly

Strangely your new system designed to make it harder to fluke an obscenely high target number actually made it easier by a factor of 24 times in this case.

An easy mistake to make the effect comes from the fact that you have to roll the smaller dice more often.

Sorry

Edward

edit fix my maths

This post has been edited by Edward: Apr 23 2005, 04:41 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Pthgar
post Apr 23 2005, 02:07 PM
Post #21


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 619
Joined: 27-May 03
From: Detroit
Member No.: 4,642



My group switch to d10 a while back. We use the full force for drain codes, revised (almost) all the target numbers up by two. It's okay. I think that we did the minimum amount of work to make it reasonably effective. It would probably be better if we put more of an effort into it.

I am actually looking forward to SR4 and going back to being full canon. It's too much of a headache for a GM that already is doing a lot.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Little Bill
post Apr 23 2005, 05:18 PM
Post #22


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 85
Joined: 24-September 02
From: Centerville, UT
Member No.: 3,307



The basic idea is not to make higher TNs more difficult - it's to make them less difficult.

I see no reason to change the Attribute scale - sure the attribute will be an easier TN, but the resistance rolls will be made on d10s as well, so things should balance out somewhat.



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
golden1
post Apr 24 2005, 12:24 AM
Post #23


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 25
Joined: 14-July 04
Member No.: 6,482



i'm probably going to burned at the stake for mentioning this, but if you convert to d8's and add 1 to all target numbers,the rules as described for sr4, become exactly compatable with the WoD rules... assuming you also convert wod to d8's, and take1 off all their target numbers. both systems will then use Stat + skill dice, tn 6, most successes win, ties are ties.

i'm not saying the systems are Exactly the same,but if one point of "edge" happens to cost 3 karma to buy, just remember you read it here first.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kaosaur
post Apr 24 2005, 02:29 AM
Post #24


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 95
Joined: 15-April 05
Member No.: 7,335



QUOTE (Edward)
Just for the hell of it I considered the probability of hitting target 60 using a D6 and a D10 (0-9).

Using a D6 you need 10 6s in a row. Chance on a single die 0.0000000165 & change
Using a d10 0-9 you need 6 9s and a 6. Chance on a single die 0.0000004 exactly

Strangely your new system designed to make it harder to fluke an obscenely high target number actually made it easier by a factor of 24 times in this case.

An easy mistake to make the effect comes from the fact that you have to roll the smaller dice more often.

Sorry

Edward

edit fix my maths

Yeah that's all well and good but it's highly dependant on getting that first roll for the rollover.

And also considering that nothing really ever has a TN that high anyway, it's a nonissue...
The point is to make it less likely for somebody to hit multiple rerolls to beat any challenge.

It's rare when anything has a TN all that high and it's far easier to get that first or even second 1in6 than the 1in10.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dawnshadow
post Apr 24 2005, 02:39 AM
Post #25


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 668
Joined: 15-February 05
From: Ontario, Canada
Member No.: 7,086



..How do you figure?

2 6's in a row: 1 in 36 chance.
1 '9': 1 in 10 chance..

1 in 10 is a lot better than 1 in 36.. over 3 times better in fact..
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 19th October 2020 - 04:22 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.