Honor Among Thieves?, or rather...among Shadowrunners? Options

[Luke Hardison]

[Sicarius]

two thoughts:

First I imagine that the ethical rules probably break down not so much for Shadowrunner and Non-Shadowrunner, as differing among the various occupational specialities. There is little doubt in my mind that Street Samurai have a code of ethics that they adhere to, or are expected to. Deckers, riggers also probably maintain one as well. And they probably hold each other to a higher standard, and exact punishments for failure to comply. (I can particularly imagine, from the writings by "deckers" in the various books, it seems like many of them know each other, at least by reputation. And someone who committed a major foul may very well find every console cowboy in the matrix gunning for him.

As for killing fellow shadowrunners, I think it would be likely that they might make a distinction between what happens on the job, and what happens afterwards. So Team A and Team B find themselves gunning for the same prototype, for their prospective employeers. I think a gunfight is likely, although if it is possible to negotiate a settlment which benefits both teams they might. However, whoever wins, after the fight I don't imagine the losing team taking revenge, ambushing the winning team as they sit at their favorite waterhole. After all, the world is dangerous enough, who wants to get their brains blown out by another runner while they're sipping their beer.

That being said of course, there are going to be some Shadowrunners with reputations as being honorable, and those who relish a reputation for bad behavior. So long as they get the job done cleanly, I doubt their employeers would care.

[Swing Kid]

[Swing Kid]

[hahnsoo]

Heh. I was thinking I had offended you, Swing Kid, and that I was on the retaliatory end of an unintentional attack. Just trying to defuse the potential situation as calmly and as apologetically as possible. I've been involved in enough flame wars to be careful about starting one. No worries, eh?

Anyway, I don't think Shadowrunners are as glorified or likeable as you think, or else we've been reading different sourcebooks. Sprawl Survival Guide's and list of "Shadowrunners in the Media" and SOTA:2063 states the following examples:
Under the "Negative" category:
* Against the Hive Masters - Shadowrunners are rumored to have kidnapped Euphoria prior to making the sim. They are kidnappers, not heroes.
* Eclipse - Shadowrunners attack a space station, and are the main villains.
* Marathon - Shadowrunners kill the contestants of a marathon, and are the main villains.
* Dunkelzahn's Assassination - Some suspects in his assassination are shadowrunners.
* Renraku Arcology Shutdown - Among the suspects, again.
* Comet Chaos - Arson against the Church of the Undying Light, suspects include shadowrunners

Under the "Neutral" category:
* Whose Swag Is This? - Comedy, shadowrunners are comic characters trying to keep Xi7o Corporation from buying their home.
* Deep Shadow - Shadowrunners a la "Boyz N The Hood". Shadowrunners are rolemodels leading a boy into a life of crime and punishment. Borderline negative perception of shadowrunners are here, but it makes for good drama.

Under the "Positive" category:
* Sapphire: Shadowrunner for Hire - Shadowrunners are romanticized in this flick, but they end up nuking downtown Seattle off the map. They also cause much damage and mayhem. While the shadowrunners are the protagonists, they do a lot of antisocial things in the process.
* Yo, Chummer - With the ever-lovable Karl Kombatmage.

As far as the public perception and media in Shadowrun, the following Shadowtalk quote in the SSG p85 says it best: "Painting the shadows and shadowrunners as dangerous and/or glamorous sells, and that’s the real truth." To paraphrase an expression "Everyone wants to be a shadowrunner, but no one wants to be a shadowrunner." Everyone wants the glamorous and exciting parts of the shadowrunner's life, but no one wants the poverty, the criminal record, or the other negative parts of being a shadowrunner. The glamor and excitement, though, are just how the media uses the criminal image to sell sims and trids, and while I can certainly see some folks that would find a shadowrunner appealing, the images in the media reinforce the perception that shadowrunners are stone-cold hardened criminals who will sell out anyone for a nuyen.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

[Kagetenshi]

One major part that I see being kept from the public view is the all-important detail of who is hiring the Shadowrunners. Even if Sapphire: Shadowrunner for Hire is noble and do-goodish, ten gets you one it's an activist group hiring her and not a corp.

~J

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

The Prius-driving assassin...

[fistandantilus4....]

[Arethusa]

[hahnsoo]

Back to the original topic, I don't think shadowrunners as a whole have some sort of fraternal "code" that prevents them from whacking each other. This is not to say that they will attack each other when they make eye-contact (like Pokemon trainers or Pirates vs. Ninja), but I think the phrase "Nothing personal, just business" applies in situations where one team is up against another team for whatever reason. Most shadowrunners won't refuse a job if it involves killing another shadowrun team in the process (knowingly or unknowingly)... if they do refuse those jobs, it's not expected that other shadowrun teams would extend them the same courtesy ("Oh, you're a SHADOWrunner, I didn't see your union pin before I shot you in the head with my Manhunter"). Remember that assassins, hit men, and murderers are a subset of the shadowrunner population, and that they are hired to kill other shadowrunners, too. Also, nothing stops a runner from making things personal, as well... if half of a team which was like a family to a runner is killed by an opposing shadowrun team, then that runner could possibly snap and try to exact revenge.

Nor do they have any sort of obligation to a corporation (shadowrunners are freelancers by definition, although some may turn into corporate or syndicate lackeys or sellouts). Shadowrunners need to assume that they are going to get fragged over at a meet. This means setting up another potential buyer for their paydata/goods so they can get rid of the hot stuff, if the meet turns out to be an ambush, or the Johnson turns out to be a fragger. If they are professional, you do the professional thing and complete the agreement. If they aren't professional, then you have no obligation to remain professional. I'm sure it would be a boost to your street cred, though, if you are known to be professional at all times (even when you are being dicked over), but when your life is on the line, then the choice between survival and professionalism is obvious... can't be a professional if you are dead. Again, nothing stops a runner from taking "business" and making it "personal"... if they find out that the item they stole happened to be something different than they thought, and they feel it is going to the wrong hands, then personal morals may take over.

[Swing Kid]

Well, I must say. My thoughts on runners vs runners have changed since I started this topic. The points I have read are very good. I wasn't all that heavily opinioned that runners wouldn't kill other runners as much as I was under the idea that there would be certain unspoken understandings between them.

The impressions that I had of this specific unspoken code was essentially like this:

Runners vs Runners - Part of my line of thinking was that there simply were not alot of real runners in the streets. Maybe a couple of thousand in the metroplex. One of the greatest assets that these fellows have is the fact that they aren't really all that recognizable as runners, except for to other runners. I would expect alot of competition, conflicts (often bloody), and backstabbing from time to time, but I would see it as a "keep it in the family," mentality. I could see a Johnson trying to hire a couple of runners to find and eliminate another runner, or a team, and the answer being something like, "well, that will cost ALOT more money." Not so much because the runners are harder targets (though they would be), but because of a certain professional courtesy, and because the employers are coming into their house now.
I do however, still believe that this would be closer to the truth than it may seem at first. After all, most of us on this forum (myself included) really aren't the Professional Privateers that we speak for, so I doubt that the answer could really be recognized when it was seen.
I believe that the answer is based off of real professionalism, not just professional acts during a run. I believe that the way a team conducts themselves in the streets dictates their professionalism as much as it does on the job. I think that the VAST majority of those who make a living doing the darker deeds required in the sprawl (likely calling themselves Shadowrunners, only to be smirked at by the pros) would completely agree with the arguements that I have heard (very good, valid points, I might add), but I still believe that this is where the line is drawn between the amateurs and the professionals.
Do I believe that a professional would eliminate a peer? Hell yes, but not lightly, and not without making the employer pay out of the ass. In the end, we are still hired killers and thieves.
I do think, though that the answers that I have read are actually much more accurate for the game than my view of "what would really happen." I beleive that the reality would be that the Shadowrunners would need to have a very strong set of standards to protect the profession itself. If runners had such a system, then they could move more freely, develop reputations that are more than just karma point values, and could count on the idea that if they are targeted by another team, then it is either a team that is obviously amatuer and mercenary, or that there is a real danger because the guy you just had a drink with let you know that you might want to get your things in order. Professional Courtesy.
**Responding to the obvious retort ahead of time. "But I would just kill the guy who told me to get my stuff in order." A professional would have that covered well ahead of time. The target would know he was safe there at that moment, so long as he didn't do anything stupid.
The arguements that were put on this forum were really good, and I appreciate the input. And yes, I am fully aware that I have an overly romantic vision of professionalism, but then again, that is why I play this game.

[hahnsoo]

[Smiley]

Not our Shadowrunners. :nuyen: :nuyen: :nuyen:

[hahnsoo]

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

[Arethusa]

No. I may kill people for a living, but I drive a hybrid because I care about leaving a cleaner world for our children.

[Eyeless Blond]

That and the Prius just kicks ass. Anyone else here actually own one?

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

Ah...

Well, the "Prius-driving assassin" comment was in regards to the idea of a mainstream author using a group of ostensibly "good" activists as a straw man for an ad hominem attack on them by portraying them as hypocritical lunatics who see the utility in destroying the world to save it.

IOW... The guys who hire shadowrunners in SR mainstream entertainment would be, for example, eco-terrorists who hire them to bomb an oil refinery and pollute and toxify a good chunk of the north Pacific to prove oil is evil and the refinery operators are evil pigs, and the good corporate security forces must stop them from doing such a thing and in the process show that oil is a better fuel than their idiotic "alternative energy" ideas and that regulations on their operations than the mainstream eco-activists are fighting for against the refinery in a subpolot would actually create more environmental damage than the status quo.

[Lenice Hawk]

Here's how I define professionalism. Alot of this comes from my real work life, and when I was in charge of hiring at a retail store.
professional is all about the little things. Do you arrive where you say you will when you say you will?
Does the job get done?
Is it done cleanly, aka no tell tell signs that you were there, or at least very few?
Hitting other runners can be done by a professional, but is usually avoided. You don't know what's going to happen when you kill another runner. Kinda the law of unintended consequences. I kill a, who happens to be hunting down b. b finds out a is killed, and goes back to his games of raping and pillaging at your local stuffer shack. All the sudden, getting a snack is a bit more of a pain. (yes, a stretch of analogy)
What do I do? Do as little illegal as possible. Screw others over as little as possible. Kill as little as possible. If you have to, you have to, but don't litter the floor with bodies.
It makes life simpler.

[Arethusa]

Crimson, I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that you read the Shadowrun novels. I would say that was your first mistake.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

No, I was describing the plot of Michael Crichton's piece of dreck (and I use that word because it is so utterly more profane and disgusting to me than the words "crap" or "shit."), State of Fear. He had the Prius-driving assassin, the hero scientist who knows global warming is complete and utter bullshit, the evil environmentalist villians who seek to further global warming to prove themselves right above all else, and the book based on nothing more than incorrect data or criminally disnigenuous interpretations of scientific data and asserts them as fact while making every environmentalist argument a caricature, setting up easily-knocked down straw men for his hero to debunk and convert throughout the novel.

But then again, this is the man who wrote the eminently scientific Jurassic Park series, so his word is of course paramount above logic and fact.

But I digress... A lot.

Although I have read several SR novels. I can't for the life of me remember anything that happened in them except some snippets of character identifications and some of the events in Koke's novels and Burning Bright, or the technician in Who Hunts the Hunter (?) who goes hunting for something in the sewers and has a skill rating in his field of a 76 (as if that was to relate to the skill rating system of SR since on the back cover he's described as having a skill rating or something like it "higher than God's").

[Arethusa]

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

Ah.... hahaha.

Yeah.

[Ed Simons]