There would undoubtedly be a number of "unwritten rules" regarding the Do's and Don'ts of Shadowrunning, particularly among the runners themselves, or even client/operative relations. I am curious as to the thoughts of this forum. Basically, like a thieves or pirates code. Basically the stuff that separates the posers from the professionals. If the unwritten rules of Shadowrunning Etiquette were to be written, what would they be?
Just a couple that we use in our campaign that might or might not be used in most campaigns, just to throw a couple of examples out, might be:
* Runners don't take hits out on other Runners.
* Runners don't take jobs and then offer the package to other interested parties for more money.
Naturally, even these rules could be debated, depending on the nature of the gaming group.
Full Version: Honor Among Thieves?
I don't agree with the first, but I do agree with the second.
When it comes down to it, the idea is just to act professional. That's how you tell the difference. The job comes first, before petty squabbles, before looting rights. If you can do it quickly and cleanly, that's the best way to do it. There are very few things that come before the job, and it's always the most serious, priority 1 drek (wife kidnapped, J backstabbing you, etc.)
When it comes down to it, the idea is just to act professional. That's how you tell the difference. The job comes first, before petty squabbles, before looting rights. If you can do it quickly and cleanly, that's the best way to do it. There are very few things that come before the job, and it's always the most serious, priority 1 drek (wife kidnapped, J backstabbing you, etc.)
1 - Keep your word
2 - Don't screw over your team mates.
3 - Protect your contact
That's pretty much it. Accepting a hit on another runner is certainly okay.
You should keep your word simply because if you don't no one will hire you.
You shouldn't screw over your team mates because if you do, no one will work with you.
You should protect your contacts because if you don't you'll lose them.
Easy enough, I think. Violate these rules and the GM has a duty to make your life as a runner miserable. Any other rules of conduct are a matter of personal taste, IMO.
2 - Don't screw over your team mates.
3 - Protect your contact
That's pretty much it. Accepting a hit on another runner is certainly okay.
You should keep your word simply because if you don't no one will hire you.
You shouldn't screw over your team mates because if you do, no one will work with you.
You should protect your contacts because if you don't you'll lose them.
Easy enough, I think. Violate these rules and the GM has a duty to make your life as a runner miserable. Any other rules of conduct are a matter of personal taste, IMO.
I don't agree with either of those. You do what you do to make cred, and the smart ones will think long-term. You don't organleg the J and sell the package because then you won't get hired again, but if you can organleg the J and sell the package without anyone finding out, well… what's stopping you? It's certainly not unprofessional.
~J
~J
-If the job is supposed to be in and out with no one knowing, DON'T LOOT.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 5 2005, 01:21 PM) |
| You don't organleg the J and sell the package because then you won't get hired again, but if you can organleg the J and sell the package without anyone finding out, well… what's stopping you? It's certainly not unprofessional. |
Yes, it's unprofessional. Even if you think no one will find out, you might be wrong. And people will usually find out, if not be able to prove it's your fault.
If you steal some data for J, make copy and distribute it to anyone willing to buy, J will know because lo and behold the data he wanted secretly stolen is now available on the black market and/or amongst his competitors. The competitive edge J (or rather his employer) wanted to acquires has suddenly evaporated because his major rival has it too.
And who might be responsible for the leak? Maybe J can't prove it's the runner, but he'll strongly suspect and at the very least won't hire them for future job of the same type.
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| 1 - Keep your word 2 - Don't screw over your team mates. 3 - Protect your contact That's pretty much it. Accepting a hit on another runner is certainly okay. You should keep your word simply because if you don't no one will hire you. You shouldn't screw over your team mates because if you do, no one will work with you. You should protect your contacts because if you don't you'll lose them. Easy enough, I think. Violate these rules and the GM has a duty to make your life as a runner miserable. Any other rules of conduct are a matter of personal taste, IMO. |
Though I do completely agree with your words, I realize that there is a bit of a misunderstanding. I think this response is more how to be a successful runner than a runner etiquette code between active members.
One of the other responses pointed out that the runners do what they do for the cred. I would agree that this is common, but this really is the acts of mercenaries.
Where I am going with this is that in a profession like Shadowrunning, where contacts and reputation are the keys to success, there would almost have to be some general understanding to maintain the opportunities and usefullness of the trade.
For instance, if a young runner was to gun down several security guards in a run when it wasn't necessary, then the company being hit might retaliate against the runners directly, but if the run was done without such a sloppy outcome, the corp might focus their efforts on simply getting their property back. It goes back to the whole idea of which is more important to a targeted company, the tools that were used to steal their property or the true thieves that hired them. A profession like shadowrunning could really only exist if there were some underlying rules that are followed. If all of the runners acted like mercs, then the profession would dwindle, and the corps would rely on their own privately owned teams to do their work.
This is not to be a overly-romantic viewpoint of the characters, or to urge goodly actions on their parts, so much as to explore the codes of ethics. Even the mafia and yakuza use codes of ethics, though I doubt that theirs are in print either.
As to the runners doing runs on other runners, I don't disagree that this would be seen from time to time, but I think it would be rare. I am sure that they way alot of players play this game, they use the term shadowrunner to imply every gun for hire an thug with a gun (not meant as a shot; my favorite character is a blood thirsty merc). The truth is, shadowrunners would probably not see as many wetwork options in front of them unless they worked that angle early in their careers. There are pleanty of bounty hunters, assassins, and general thug types who would most likely get these jobs. From the perspective of a big corp, using a shadowrunner to kill shadowrunner would only have one advantage, that it takes a thief to catch a thief. Beyond that, I honestly think that if the culture really existed, this practice would be deeply frowned upon.
But then again, my view only dictates my campaigns.
Thanks for any constructive input.
Killing the J and/or selling the package is unprofessional, but might not be against the 'honor code' this thread was built around.
Killing the J is not a good idea unless you know no one will know or care, and the J won't hire you again anyway. For instance, if he betrayed you and everyone knows it. Otherwise, it's simply not worth it. How much would you get for him anyway, a few K? Not worth the risk of never working again.
As for selling the package... Depends on the price tag. If you can get a cool few million out of it, sure! That's part of being a thief. Then you don't HAVE to work ever again. That, or use it for ransom to jack of the price to the J a few notches.
There are always exceptions, but for the most part, the idea is to keep on running.
I disagree with you, Kid. Runners span the spectrum. There are some who are just kids with guns hired to do delivery runs, and some rocket across the world doing high level extractions. Sure, the kids might decide it's never nice to wax old ladies, but that's their decision, no 'runner's code'.
There's certainly no rule against running against other runners. It's a very competitive field. Dog eat dog, and all that. They're regularly hired to compete against each other. If they decided runners couldn't kill other runners, the ones who broke the rules would be the ones who generally got paid. It's an untenable rule then. Runners WILL compete, and they will kill each other. They just try not to geek anyone else who's currently on their team (some even go so far to not geek anyone who's ever been on their team, but lets not be too idealistic here, eh?)
Killing the J is not a good idea unless you know no one will know or care, and the J won't hire you again anyway. For instance, if he betrayed you and everyone knows it. Otherwise, it's simply not worth it. How much would you get for him anyway, a few K? Not worth the risk of never working again.
As for selling the package... Depends on the price tag. If you can get a cool few million out of it, sure! That's part of being a thief. Then you don't HAVE to work ever again. That, or use it for ransom to jack of the price to the J a few notches.
There are always exceptions, but for the most part, the idea is to keep on running.
I disagree with you, Kid. Runners span the spectrum. There are some who are just kids with guns hired to do delivery runs, and some rocket across the world doing high level extractions. Sure, the kids might decide it's never nice to wax old ladies, but that's their decision, no 'runner's code'.
There's certainly no rule against running against other runners. It's a very competitive field. Dog eat dog, and all that. They're regularly hired to compete against each other. If they decided runners couldn't kill other runners, the ones who broke the rules would be the ones who generally got paid. It's an untenable rule then. Runners WILL compete, and they will kill each other. They just try not to geek anyone else who's currently on their team (some even go so far to not geek anyone who's ever been on their team, but lets not be too idealistic here, eh?)
Well, all the "codes of conduct" in all my games could be boiled down to the phrase "Be professional".
As long as the runners and the johnson keeps it professional all is well. Runners will do wetowrk, they will kill women and children and they will mass murder, but they maintain a professional attitude and get the job done.
Those that cannot act as professionals will have a much harder time interacting with johnsons and have much more difficult careers. They will find it harder to build working relationships and garner trust of contacts.
This is what separates the real runners from the wannabees.
As long as the runners and the johnson keeps it professional all is well. Runners will do wetowrk, they will kill women and children and they will mass murder, but they maintain a professional attitude and get the job done.
Those that cannot act as professionals will have a much harder time interacting with johnsons and have much more difficult careers. They will find it harder to build working relationships and garner trust of contacts.
This is what separates the real runners from the wannabees.
I don't agree with not killing other runners. Whatever pays the bills, pays the bills. If a PC has a problem with it, that's different. But shadowrunners in general... I don't think anyone in any group I know would refuse to kill another runner.
I do agree with protecting contacts and not screwing teammates over, however. It's just good business and goes back towards paying the bills.
EDIT: And now that I think about it, what's "professional" is going to differ depending on who's running and who's in the campaign.
EDIT again: Not screwing Johnson isn't iron-clad, either. If you find out he's lying or the run blows up, or any of that stuff, all bets are off.
I do agree with protecting contacts and not screwing teammates over, however. It's just good business and goes back towards paying the bills.
EDIT: And now that I think about it, what's "professional" is going to differ depending on who's running and who's in the campaign.
EDIT again: Not screwing Johnson isn't iron-clad, either. If you find out he's lying or the run blows up, or any of that stuff, all bets are off.
Now we are getting into the spirit of the topic. How would you all label professionalism?
Another question, if it is as Dog-eat-Dog as all that, then what would keep runners from targeting other runners for profit? Decks generally are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Sams often carry enough hardware to fund a small college, and mages, selling their gear could be a career. This is not meant to argue any points, as much as to explore how things would work.
One of the biggest reasons for this topic is not so much a code of conduct for the actual players playing the game, as much as to get an idea of how a GM should have the other Shadowrunners act towards them from a NPC standpoint.
Another question, if it is as Dog-eat-Dog as all that, then what would keep runners from targeting other runners for profit? Decks generally are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Sams often carry enough hardware to fund a small college, and mages, selling their gear could be a career. This is not meant to argue any points, as much as to explore how things would work.
One of the biggest reasons for this topic is not so much a code of conduct for the actual players playing the game, as much as to get an idea of how a GM should have the other Shadowrunners act towards them from a NPC standpoint.
everybody throws around "professional" like it means something concrete, yet they all mean different things by it. rather than jumping in and providing my own definition (which would be no more correct than anyone else's anyway), i'll just stick with "wise" and "unwise".
selling the package and organlegging the J: generally unwise. only worth doing if it brings you significantly closer to retirement, or if the J deserves it (by whatever standards you hold "deserving it" to)
looting: generally wise. unless there's a specific reason not to, take difficult-to-trace valuables. don't grab everything that isn't nailed down, and don't jeopardize the actual job in favor of the loot (unless said loot will bring you significantly closer to retirement).
taking hits on other runners: generally unwise, unless the pay is good. you're going to have a more difficult time than usual collecting enough good intel to make a hit on any runner that's worth hitting; if you could, they wouldn't be good enough to be worth hitting. as far as honor among shadowrunners, though? *snort* i'll see you on my wall, carebear.
selling the package and organlegging the J: generally unwise. only worth doing if it brings you significantly closer to retirement, or if the J deserves it (by whatever standards you hold "deserving it" to)
looting: generally wise. unless there's a specific reason not to, take difficult-to-trace valuables. don't grab everything that isn't nailed down, and don't jeopardize the actual job in favor of the loot (unless said loot will bring you significantly closer to retirement).
taking hits on other runners: generally unwise, unless the pay is good. you're going to have a more difficult time than usual collecting enough good intel to make a hit on any runner that's worth hitting; if you could, they wouldn't be good enough to be worth hitting. as far as honor among shadowrunners, though? *snort* i'll see you on my wall, carebear.
| QUOTE (Swing Kid @ May 5 2005, 03:25 PM) | ||
Though I do completely agree with your words, I realize that there is a bit of a misunderstanding. I think this response is more how to be a successful runner than a runner etiquette code between active members. |
Etiquette is just decorum, how to behave in order to appear professional.
Appearing professional doesn't mean you are, but if you are professional it is inevitable that you will appear so. If you follow these three rules, you are going a long way toward acting with professionalism (for a runner).
For example, it would be runner etiquette not to ask another shadowplayer about his sources when he gives you info. But that's just because your contact has to follow rule number 3 himself. If you try to browbeat your contacts into revealing their own sources, you obviously don't have their best interest at heart. So you are breaking rule number 3 or at least demonstrate that you can't be relied on to uphold it.
So etiquette to me is just always acting in a way that annunces to the other shadowplayers that you know and can be counted upon to follow the three rules I mentionned.
| QUOTE (Swing Kid) |
Another question, if it is as Dog-eat-Dog as all that, then what would keep runners from targeting other runners for profit? Decks generally are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Sams often carry enough hardware to fund a small college, and mages, selling their gear could be a career. This is not meant to argue any points, as much as to explore how things would work. |
Being paid to to kill someone is different than randomly seeking out people to murder them for their gear.
As for professionalism, leaving your emotions at the door and keeping to your word is essential.
If you get paid to murder a school full of children just to make a point, then kill everyone of them, don't wimp out when you get there. If you dont like the run or it clashes with your ideals then dont take the run, it is your choice.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| as far as honor among shadowrunners, though? *snort* i'll see you on my wall, carebear. |
Hear, hear.
Here's what I think:
Do what you say you're going to do, don't get caught doing what you said you wouldn't, get ahead any way you can while completing the run.
Honor amongst thieves is not as silly as many of you are making it out to be. The problem isn't that it isn't real so much as it isn't honor at all; it's professional, intelligent self interest and mutually assured destruction that ends up looking like honor.
If I kill my Johnson, I not only risk my life and the lives of my teammates; I also pretty much killed my career and theirs, not to mention invited additional attention from legitimate authorities. And my former friends'll probably kill me.
If I kill my friends, I'll get some money in the short term; I'll also have pretty much alienated myself from the only community that offers me any sort of protection.
If I start preying on members of the community purely for profit, I have again turned that entire community on me. Thus, killing deckers for cash is goddamn stupid.
Honor amongst shadowrunners is a very nihilistic expression of systemic self interest and survival. That's all. But it is real. And, well, some runners are still human beings, I guess, so maybe they won't be quite as pragmatic, but at the end, the crazy hardass psychopath runners that people around here often glorfiy as realistic are just as silly as honorable street samurai.
If I kill my Johnson, I not only risk my life and the lives of my teammates; I also pretty much killed my career and theirs, not to mention invited additional attention from legitimate authorities. And my former friends'll probably kill me.
If I kill my friends, I'll get some money in the short term; I'll also have pretty much alienated myself from the only community that offers me any sort of protection.
If I start preying on members of the community purely for profit, I have again turned that entire community on me. Thus, killing deckers for cash is goddamn stupid.
Honor amongst shadowrunners is a very nihilistic expression of systemic self interest and survival. That's all. But it is real. And, well, some runners are still human beings, I guess, so maybe they won't be quite as pragmatic, but at the end, the crazy hardass psychopath runners that people around here often glorfiy as realistic are just as silly as honorable street samurai.
right, that's what i'm saying. going up against other runners is a bad idea for its own sake, not because of some lofty ideal. the reason you don't drive your car into a wall isn't that you have respect for the car spirits, it's that you don't want to eat a steering wheel.
There are circumstances which call for Johnson's head on a party platter. They have to be pretty extreme, though. It all comes back to how you play it. In some groups a dead Johnson is going to mean more trouble than in others.
Still, as far as murdering other runners, it's not like the so-called "shadowrunner community at large" (if it even exists within the context of the campaign setting in any particular gaming group... we'll assume Seattle for now) will psychically know your motivations and actions. A team who got screwed over by a rogue decker and geeked that decker in revenge can still be considered "dishonorable targets, open season", while a team that is out solely to wipe out the competition may never hit the Shadowland boards if they keep a low profile (i.e. get away with it). I think one general "rule" for shadowrunning (and probably any profession) is "No matter how clever you are, no matter how thorough you are, you will screw up eventually. Always prepare for the worst."
Most of the ethical conflicts within the shadowrunner "profession" are between staying alive (survival) and keeping your job (professionalism). The rest tend to be ethical conflicts that pertain to personal codes of morality and cultural norms. There are some things within the subset of shadowrun and the Sixth World that could be considered acceptable cultural standards, I guess: "Never deal with a dragon" "Geek the mage first" etc.
Most of the ethical conflicts within the shadowrunner "profession" are between staying alive (survival) and keeping your job (professionalism). The rest tend to be ethical conflicts that pertain to personal codes of morality and cultural norms. There are some things within the subset of shadowrun and the Sixth World that could be considered acceptable cultural standards, I guess: "Never deal with a dragon" "Geek the mage first" etc.
That is a good point. Even if there is a reason to kill Mr. J or another team, the SR community isn't going to automatically know. It goes both ways, though. If a Johnson you're working for disappears, the SR community isn't going to automatically know it was you. Shadowrunning is a dangerous business, accidents happen. If EVERY Mr. J you work for winds up floating in the sound, people are going to know something's amiss, but if a team with a good track record misplaces an employer, I doubt the repercussions are going to be too severe.
| QUOTE (Swing Kid @ May 5 2005, 03:25 PM) |
| I would agree that this is common, but this really is the acts of mercenaries. <snip> (not meant as a shot; my favorite character is a blood thirsty merc). |
Not to knock on you too much, but I think you are using the common term of mercenaries rather than the profession of mercenary in the Sixth World. In the Sixth World, mercenaries are encorporated and professional unions of independent soldiers, the guys you see in the Desert Wars Trideos. They are paid to kill, but they are "legitimate" in the sense that they are just doing their jobs and they are mostly hired to kill each other. Shadowrunners tend to occupy the rung just below mercenaries in public perception, because they are killers, terrorists, and SINless criminals, whereas mercenaries are simply hired soldiers who kill other mercenaries.
EDIT: That last sentence didn't make much sense to me upon multiple readings, structure-wise.
Thanks for the input, especially the grammar concerns.
To clearify my statement that threw you off. "not meant as a shot," means that I wasn't knocking the mercenary trade, like saying "not meant as an insult to mercenaries". Then I noted that my favorite character is a blatant mercenary, of the same description that you wrote (though most likely more cold blooded than your version), to emphasize the point.
I have to say, however, that I do not agree in the slightest with the idea that Shadowrunners are seen as below mercenary soldiers in the eyes of the public. Everything that I have read has led me to believe that the trid and music industry completely idolizes the craft. If this is the case, then public opinion would hold runners in a pretty fair light. "They would like us."
On the other hand, many of the answers that I have gotten do show me that my interpretations of Shadowrunner honor (save for a few responses) are completely different than what is common among SR gamers.
I would like to point out again that if all of this were real, then the profession of Shadowrunning could only exist if it were handled better than simply acting like hit-men, terrorists, and cutthroat maniacs with agendas. If runners made a habbit of killing everyone on a target site, usually because it is easier than remaining unseen, then Hahhnsoo's (han solo?) view would be completely correct. The corps would find the Shadowrunning community as more of a liability than as an asset. I do not doubt that there would be (much like there are today) pleanty of people who would do exactly that sort of work for money (Mercenaries, Hit Men, etc.), and these characters are great to play, but I believe that they would be completely different professions.
Sorry Hahhnsoo if this seemed like a shot, but I love a good debate.
To clearify my statement that threw you off. "not meant as a shot," means that I wasn't knocking the mercenary trade, like saying "not meant as an insult to mercenaries". Then I noted that my favorite character is a blatant mercenary, of the same description that you wrote (though most likely more cold blooded than your version), to emphasize the point.
I have to say, however, that I do not agree in the slightest with the idea that Shadowrunners are seen as below mercenary soldiers in the eyes of the public. Everything that I have read has led me to believe that the trid and music industry completely idolizes the craft. If this is the case, then public opinion would hold runners in a pretty fair light. "They would like us."
On the other hand, many of the answers that I have gotten do show me that my interpretations of Shadowrunner honor (save for a few responses) are completely different than what is common among SR gamers.
I would like to point out again that if all of this were real, then the profession of Shadowrunning could only exist if it were handled better than simply acting like hit-men, terrorists, and cutthroat maniacs with agendas. If runners made a habbit of killing everyone on a target site, usually because it is easier than remaining unseen, then Hahhnsoo's (han solo?) view would be completely correct. The corps would find the Shadowrunning community as more of a liability than as an asset. I do not doubt that there would be (much like there are today) pleanty of people who would do exactly that sort of work for money (Mercenaries, Hit Men, etc.), and these characters are great to play, but I believe that they would be completely different professions.
Sorry Hahhnsoo if this seemed like a shot, but I love a good debate.
I would argue that in the context of the 80s you need some honorable asian dude running around, or else the universe implodes.
I couldn't agree more
Whoa, just a sec. My EDIT: was regarding my last sentence, not yours. Typically, when someone does an EDIT: it's to clarify something that editing person said. I wrote a bad sentence, and my EDIT: explained that I changed it because I wanted it to sound better. I'm sorry if I've unintentionally offended you with that statement, but believe me, I wasn't trying to correct your grammar or pick a fight.
Shadowrunners don't have their own public corporations, like MET 2000 and 10,000 Daggers (both of which are at least A rated). Granted, the sections out of the front of Fields of Fire and out of SOTA: 2063 (p54-72) admittedly lionize the profession of Mercenary and are written from the perspective of two Mercenaries who take pride in their profession. Also, from Sprawl Survival Guide, Shadowrunners in the mass media are romanticized, although they are equally portrayed as heartless villains. However, the main difference is that Shadowrunners are not legitimate and mercenaries are. Why would anyone see a SINless criminal under a better light than a legitimate solider-for-hire, especially someone who is seen every year at the Desert Wars (one of the most popular Trid events in the Sixth World)?
Another example is the attitude of the Johnson toward the runners portrayed on pp 52-58 of the Shadowrun Companion, specifically "TREAT THE SRS AS HOSTILE" section on p56 (ironically, Shadowrunners are described as "mercenaries, living merely for the next payment"). "Even if they appear wholesome (a statistically improbable occurrence), assume they are willing to kill you for any trivial reason should the opportunity present itself. These people are hardened criminals who commit heinous crimes for nuyen."
The other main thing is that shadowrunners are expendable and deniable. A corporation who hires shadowrunners doesn't care about a shadowrunner's professionalism aside from how it furthers its own goals. They are fully able and willing to throw away the lives of the folks that they hire, and cover it up afterwards. Before you argue that "no sane shadowrunner would go on a job for a corp that screws over shadowrunners", how would any shadowrunner know who they are really working for? Misdirection and false identities are the NORM for Johnsons, precisely because they typically intend to screw the shadowrunners over after all is said and done.
On a side note, the name is Hahnsoo. It's my Korean name. Please don't tease it, okay?
Shadowrunners don't have their own public corporations, like MET 2000 and 10,000 Daggers (both of which are at least A rated). Granted, the sections out of the front of Fields of Fire and out of SOTA: 2063 (p54-72) admittedly lionize the profession of Mercenary and are written from the perspective of two Mercenaries who take pride in their profession. Also, from Sprawl Survival Guide, Shadowrunners in the mass media are romanticized, although they are equally portrayed as heartless villains. However, the main difference is that Shadowrunners are not legitimate and mercenaries are. Why would anyone see a SINless criminal under a better light than a legitimate solider-for-hire, especially someone who is seen every year at the Desert Wars (one of the most popular Trid events in the Sixth World)?
Another example is the attitude of the Johnson toward the runners portrayed on pp 52-58 of the Shadowrun Companion, specifically "TREAT THE SRS AS HOSTILE" section on p56 (ironically, Shadowrunners are described as "mercenaries, living merely for the next payment"). "Even if they appear wholesome (a statistically improbable occurrence), assume they are willing to kill you for any trivial reason should the opportunity present itself. These people are hardened criminals who commit heinous crimes for nuyen."
The other main thing is that shadowrunners are expendable and deniable. A corporation who hires shadowrunners doesn't care about a shadowrunner's professionalism aside from how it furthers its own goals. They are fully able and willing to throw away the lives of the folks that they hire, and cover it up afterwards. Before you argue that "no sane shadowrunner would go on a job for a corp that screws over shadowrunners", how would any shadowrunner know who they are really working for? Misdirection and false identities are the NORM for Johnsons, precisely because they typically intend to screw the shadowrunners over after all is said and done.
On a side note, the name is Hahnsoo. It's my Korean name. Please don't tease it, okay?
| QUOTE (Swing Kid) |
| As to the runners doing runs on other runners, I don't disagree that this would be seen from time to time, but I think it would be rare. I am sure that they way alot of players play this game, they use the term shadowrunner to imply every gun for hire an thug with a gun (not meant as a shot; my favorite character is a blood thirsty merc). The truth is, shadowrunners would probably not see as many wetwork options in front of them unless they worked that angle early in their careers. There are pleanty of bounty hunters, assassins, and general thug types who would most likely get these jobs. From the perspective of a big corp, using a shadowrunner to kill shadowrunner would only have one advantage, that it takes a thief to catch a thief. Beyond that, I honestly think that if the culture really existed, this practice would be deeply frowned upon. |
At least in my ShadowRun universe, the J usually doesn't tell the team he's hiring them to kill another team or runner. He tells them that they're out to protect what the other runner's after, or they're after what the runner is protecting - the rest takes care of itself.
two thoughts:
First I imagine that the ethical rules probably break down not so much for Shadowrunner and Non-Shadowrunner, as differing among the various occupational specialities. There is little doubt in my mind that Street Samurai have a code of ethics that they adhere to, or are expected to. Deckers, riggers also probably maintain one as well. And they probably hold each other to a higher standard, and exact punishments for failure to comply. (I can particularly imagine, from the writings by "deckers" in the various books, it seems like many of them know each other, at least by reputation. And someone who committed a major foul may very well find every console cowboy in the matrix gunning for him.
As for killing fellow shadowrunners, I think it would be likely that they might make a distinction between what happens on the job, and what happens afterwards. So Team A and Team B find themselves gunning for the same prototype, for their prospective employeers. I think a gunfight is likely, although if it is possible to negotiate a settlment which benefits both teams they might. However, whoever wins, after the fight I don't imagine the losing team taking revenge, ambushing the winning team as they sit at their favorite waterhole. After all, the world is dangerous enough, who wants to get their brains blown out by another runner while they're sipping their beer.
That being said of course, there are going to be some Shadowrunners with reputations as being honorable, and those who relish a reputation for bad behavior. So long as they get the job done cleanly, I doubt their employeers would care.
First I imagine that the ethical rules probably break down not so much for Shadowrunner and Non-Shadowrunner, as differing among the various occupational specialities. There is little doubt in my mind that Street Samurai have a code of ethics that they adhere to, or are expected to. Deckers, riggers also probably maintain one as well. And they probably hold each other to a higher standard, and exact punishments for failure to comply. (I can particularly imagine, from the writings by "deckers" in the various books, it seems like many of them know each other, at least by reputation. And someone who committed a major foul may very well find every console cowboy in the matrix gunning for him.
As for killing fellow shadowrunners, I think it would be likely that they might make a distinction between what happens on the job, and what happens afterwards. So Team A and Team B find themselves gunning for the same prototype, for their prospective employeers. I think a gunfight is likely, although if it is possible to negotiate a settlment which benefits both teams they might. However, whoever wins, after the fight I don't imagine the losing team taking revenge, ambushing the winning team as they sit at their favorite waterhole. After all, the world is dangerous enough, who wants to get their brains blown out by another runner while they're sipping their beer.
That being said of course, there are going to be some Shadowrunners with reputations as being honorable, and those who relish a reputation for bad behavior. So long as they get the job done cleanly, I doubt their employeers would care.
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) |
| Whoa, just a sec. My EDIT: was regarding my last sentence, not yours. Typically, when someone does an EDIT: it's to clarify something that editing person said. I wrote a bad sentence, and my EDIT: explained that I changed it because I wanted it to sound better. I'm sorry if I've unintentionally offended you with that statement, but believe me, I wasn't trying to correct your grammar or pick a fight. Shadowrunners don't have their own public corporations, like MET 2000 and 10,000 Daggers (both of which are at least A rated). Granted, the sections out of the front of Fields of Fire and out of SOTA: 2063 (p54-72) admittedly lionize the profession of Mercenary and are written from the perspective of two Mercenaries who take pride in their profession. Also, from Sprawl Survival Guide, Shadowrunners in the mass media are romanticized, although they are equally portrayed as heartless villains. However, the main difference is that Shadowrunners are not legitimate and mercenaries are. Why would anyone see a SINless criminal under a better light than a legitimate solider-for-hire, especially someone who is seen every year at the Desert Wars (one of the most popular Trid events in the Sixth World)? Another example is the attitude of the Johnson toward the runners portrayed on pp 52-58 of the Shadowrun Companion, specifically "TREAT THE SRS AS HOSTILE" section on p56 (ironically, Shadowrunners are described as "mercenaries, living merely for the next payment"). "Even if they appear wholesome (a statistically improbable occurrence), assume they are willing to kill you for any trivial reason should the opportunity present itself. These people are hardened criminals who commit heinous crimes for nuyen." The other main thing is that shadowrunners are expendable and deniable. A corporation who hires shadowrunners doesn't care about a shadowrunner's professionalism aside from how it furthers its own goals. They are fully able and willing to throw away the lives of the folks that they hire, and cover it up afterwards. Before you argue that "no sane shadowrunner would go on a job for a corp that screws over shadowrunners", how would any shadowrunner know who they are really working for? Misdirection and false identities are the NORM for Johnsons, precisely because they typically intend to screw the shadowrunners over after all is said and done. On a side note, the name is Hahnsoo. It's my Korean name. Please don't tease it, okay? |
OOps, sorry for the confusion.
This is one of those situations where because actual human tone cannot be added to type. Honestly, I wasn't meaning to drag your post through the mud. I love a good debate and was honestly just enjoying the conversation. I am not the type of person to get angry over this stuff. I apologize for sounding otherwise. I just re-read my own post, and your are correct, it sounds worse than it was intended.
As to the han solo remark, that wasn't meant as a taunt either. I am a big Star Wars fan, and thought I saw a link somehow in the name hahnsoo. I have been on a coulpe of forums where star wars names were not accepted, so members take alternate, but recognizable names that look like SW names. Insulting a name is cold, and was not my intent.
Actually, other than this misunderstanding, I have been rather enjoying our debate. Anyway, again I apologize for the misunderstanding.
| QUOTE (Swing Kid) |
| [/QUOTE] Edit: This is one of those situations where because actual human tone cannot be added to type. |
EDIT: What I meant to say was "This is one of those situations where because actual human tone cannot be added to type, the tone gets created by the reader, and the original context gets mistaken."
Heh. I was thinking I had offended you, Swing Kid, and that I was on the retaliatory end of an unintentional attack. Just trying to defuse the potential situation as calmly and as apologetically as possible. I've been involved in enough flame wars to be careful about starting one. No worries, eh?
Anyway, I don't think Shadowrunners are as glorified or likeable as you think, or else we've been reading different sourcebooks. Sprawl Survival Guide's and list of "Shadowrunners in the Media" and SOTA:2063 states the following examples:
Under the "Negative" category:
* Against the Hive Masters - Shadowrunners are rumored to have kidnapped Euphoria prior to making the sim. They are kidnappers, not heroes.
* Eclipse - Shadowrunners attack a space station, and are the main villains.
* Marathon - Shadowrunners kill the contestants of a marathon, and are the main villains.
* Dunkelzahn's Assassination - Some suspects in his assassination are shadowrunners.
* Renraku Arcology Shutdown - Among the suspects, again.
* Comet Chaos - Arson against the Church of the Undying Light, suspects include shadowrunners
Under the "Neutral" category:
* Whose Swag Is This? - Comedy, shadowrunners are comic characters trying to keep Xi7o Corporation from buying their home.
* Deep Shadow - Shadowrunners a la "Boyz N The Hood". Shadowrunners are rolemodels leading a boy into a life of crime and punishment. Borderline negative perception of shadowrunners are here, but it makes for good drama.
Under the "Positive" category:
* Sapphire: Shadowrunner for Hire - Shadowrunners are romanticized in this flick, but they end up nuking downtown Seattle off the map. They also cause much damage and mayhem. While the shadowrunners are the protagonists, they do a lot of antisocial things in the process.
* Yo, Chummer - With the ever-lovable Karl Kombatmage.
As far as the public perception and media in Shadowrun, the following Shadowtalk quote in the SSG p85 says it best: "Painting the shadows and shadowrunners as dangerous and/or glamorous sells, and that’s the real truth." To paraphrase an expression "Everyone wants to be a shadowrunner, but no one wants to be a shadowrunner." Everyone wants the glamorous and exciting parts of the shadowrunner's life, but no one wants the poverty, the criminal record, or the other negative parts of being a shadowrunner. The glamor and excitement, though, are just how the media uses the criminal image to sell sims and trids, and while I can certainly see some folks that would find a shadowrunner appealing, the images in the media reinforce the perception that shadowrunners are stone-cold hardened criminals who will sell out anyone for a nuyen.
Anyway, I don't think Shadowrunners are as glorified or likeable as you think, or else we've been reading different sourcebooks. Sprawl Survival Guide's and list of "Shadowrunners in the Media" and SOTA:2063 states the following examples:
Under the "Negative" category:
* Against the Hive Masters - Shadowrunners are rumored to have kidnapped Euphoria prior to making the sim. They are kidnappers, not heroes.
* Eclipse - Shadowrunners attack a space station, and are the main villains.
* Marathon - Shadowrunners kill the contestants of a marathon, and are the main villains.
* Dunkelzahn's Assassination - Some suspects in his assassination are shadowrunners.
* Renraku Arcology Shutdown - Among the suspects, again.
* Comet Chaos - Arson against the Church of the Undying Light, suspects include shadowrunners
Under the "Neutral" category:
* Whose Swag Is This? - Comedy, shadowrunners are comic characters trying to keep Xi7o Corporation from buying their home.
* Deep Shadow - Shadowrunners a la "Boyz N The Hood". Shadowrunners are rolemodels leading a boy into a life of crime and punishment. Borderline negative perception of shadowrunners are here, but it makes for good drama.
Under the "Positive" category:
* Sapphire: Shadowrunner for Hire - Shadowrunners are romanticized in this flick, but they end up nuking downtown Seattle off the map. They also cause much damage and mayhem. While the shadowrunners are the protagonists, they do a lot of antisocial things in the process.
* Yo, Chummer - With the ever-lovable Karl Kombatmage.
As far as the public perception and media in Shadowrun, the following Shadowtalk quote in the SSG p85 says it best: "Painting the shadows and shadowrunners as dangerous and/or glamorous sells, and that’s the real truth." To paraphrase an expression "Everyone wants to be a shadowrunner, but no one wants to be a shadowrunner." Everyone wants the glamorous and exciting parts of the shadowrunner's life, but no one wants the poverty, the criminal record, or the other negative parts of being a shadowrunner. The glamor and excitement, though, are just how the media uses the criminal image to sell sims and trids, and while I can certainly see some folks that would find a shadowrunner appealing, the images in the media reinforce the perception that shadowrunners are stone-cold hardened criminals who will sell out anyone for a nuyen.
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) |
| As far as the public perception and media in Shadowrun, the following Shadowtalk quote in the SSG p85 says it best: "Painting the shadows and shadowrunners as dangerous and/or glamorous sells, and that’s the real truth." To paraphrase an expression "Everyone wants to be a shadowrunner, but no one wants to be a shadowrunner." Everyone wants the glamorous and exciting parts of the shadowrunner's life, but no one wants the poverty, the criminal record, or the other negative parts of being a shadowrunner. The glamor and excitement, though, are just how the media uses the criminal image to sell sims and trids, and while I can certainly see some folks that would find a shadowrunner appealing, the images in the media reinforce the perception that shadowrunners are stone-cold hardened criminals who will sell out anyone for a nuyen. |
It's like the discussion in Way of the Gun between Sarno and del Toro's character: Everyone wants to be a criminal without actually committing crime.
It's actually a lot like how I view SR.
One major part that I see being kept from the public view is the all-important detail of who is hiring the Shadowrunners. Even if Sapphire: Shadowrunner for Hire is noble and do-goodish, ten gets you one it's an activist group hiring her and not a corp.
~J
~J
The Prius-driving assassin...
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| It's like the discussion in Way of the Gun between Sarno and del Toro's character: Everyone wants to be a criminal without actually committing crime. It's actually a lot like how I view SR. |
Echo that. I see this a lot in my games. I've even got character actively opposing organized crime (Tamanous actually ) on moral grounds, and working in a charity hospital. Then decides that she's having a crisis of sorts because she blows people up on runs. On the flip side, same player, different character, has ripped a guys arm off to interogate him. Each group has their own skewed view of how morals and ethics should work. " I will do this, but not this or this". If they had a choice on what they would and woulnd't do, then they'd be working a more main stream profession. Not risking their lives for someone else's bottom line.
But with both groups, when they went against fellow runners, they tried not to kill them. They went for non-lethal as much as possible. If (I should say when) the other team came back at them with full auto fire and grenades, they responded in kind. But even the hardcases gave them the benefit of the choice. Not really any kind of opinion there, just my observations.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| The Prius-driving assassin... |
Hey, nobody's perfect. What's important is that you try.
Back to the original topic, I don't think shadowrunners as a whole have some sort of fraternal "code" that prevents them from whacking each other. This is not to say that they will attack each other when they make eye-contact (like Pokemon trainers or Pirates vs. Ninja), but I think the phrase "Nothing personal, just business" applies in situations where one team is up against another team for whatever reason. Most shadowrunners won't refuse a job if it involves killing another shadowrun team in the process (knowingly or unknowingly)... if they do refuse those jobs, it's not expected that other shadowrun teams would extend them the same courtesy ("Oh, you're a SHADOWrunner, I didn't see your union pin before I shot you in the head with my Manhunter"). Remember that assassins, hit men, and murderers are a subset of the shadowrunner population, and that they are hired to kill other shadowrunners, too. Also, nothing stops a runner from making things personal, as well... if half of a team which was like a family to a runner is killed by an opposing shadowrun team, then that runner could possibly snap and try to exact revenge.
Nor do they have any sort of obligation to a corporation (shadowrunners are freelancers by definition, although some may turn into corporate or syndicate lackeys or sellouts). Shadowrunners need to assume that they are going to get fragged over at a meet. This means setting up another potential buyer for their paydata/goods so they can get rid of the hot stuff, if the meet turns out to be an ambush, or the Johnson turns out to be a fragger. If they are professional, you do the professional thing and complete the agreement. If they aren't professional, then you have no obligation to remain professional. I'm sure it would be a boost to your street cred, though, if you are known to be professional at all times (even when you are being dicked over), but when your life is on the line, then the choice between survival and professionalism is obvious... can't be a professional if you are dead. Again, nothing stops a runner from taking "business" and making it "personal"... if they find out that the item they stole happened to be something different than they thought, and they feel it is going to the wrong hands, then personal morals may take over.
Nor do they have any sort of obligation to a corporation (shadowrunners are freelancers by definition, although some may turn into corporate or syndicate lackeys or sellouts). Shadowrunners need to assume that they are going to get fragged over at a meet. This means setting up another potential buyer for their paydata/goods so they can get rid of the hot stuff, if the meet turns out to be an ambush, or the Johnson turns out to be a fragger. If they are professional, you do the professional thing and complete the agreement. If they aren't professional, then you have no obligation to remain professional. I'm sure it would be a boost to your street cred, though, if you are known to be professional at all times (even when you are being dicked over), but when your life is on the line, then the choice between survival and professionalism is obvious... can't be a professional if you are dead. Again, nothing stops a runner from taking "business" and making it "personal"... if they find out that the item they stole happened to be something different than they thought, and they feel it is going to the wrong hands, then personal morals may take over.
Well, I must say. My thoughts on runners vs runners have changed since I started this topic. The points I have read are very good. I wasn't all that heavily opinioned that runners wouldn't kill other runners as much as I was under the idea that there would be certain unspoken understandings between them.
The impressions that I had of this specific unspoken code was essentially like this:
Runners vs Runners - Part of my line of thinking was that there simply were not alot of real runners in the streets. Maybe a couple of thousand in the metroplex. One of the greatest assets that these fellows have is the fact that they aren't really all that recognizable as runners, except for to other runners. I would expect alot of competition, conflicts (often bloody), and backstabbing from time to time, but I would see it as a "keep it in the family," mentality. I could see a Johnson trying to hire a couple of runners to find and eliminate another runner, or a team, and the answer being something like, "well, that will cost ALOT more money." Not so much because the runners are harder targets (though they would be), but because of a certain professional courtesy, and because the employers are coming into their house now.
I do however, still believe that this would be closer to the truth than it may seem at first. After all, most of us on this forum (myself included) really aren't the Professional Privateers that we speak for, so I doubt that the answer could really be recognized when it was seen.
I believe that the answer is based off of real professionalism, not just professional acts during a run. I believe that the way a team conducts themselves in the streets dictates their professionalism as much as it does on the job. I think that the VAST majority of those who make a living doing the darker deeds required in the sprawl (likely calling themselves Shadowrunners, only to be smirked at by the pros) would completely agree with the arguements that I have heard (very good, valid points, I might add), but I still believe that this is where the line is drawn between the amateurs and the professionals.
Do I believe that a professional would eliminate a peer? Hell yes, but not lightly, and not without making the employer pay out of the ass. In the end, we are still hired killers and thieves.
I do think, though that the answers that I have read are actually much more accurate for the game than my view of "what would really happen." I beleive that the reality would be that the Shadowrunners would need to have a very strong set of standards to protect the profession itself. If runners had such a system, then they could move more freely, develop reputations that are more than just karma point values, and could count on the idea that if they are targeted by another team, then it is either a team that is obviously amatuer and mercenary, or that there is a real danger because the guy you just had a drink with let you know that you might want to get your things in order. Professional Courtesy.
**Responding to the obvious retort ahead of time. "But I would just kill the guy who told me to get my stuff in order." A professional would have that covered well ahead of time. The target would know he was safe there at that moment, so long as he didn't do anything stupid.
The arguements that were put on this forum were really good, and I appreciate the input. And yes, I am fully aware that I have an overly romantic vision of professionalism, but then again, that is why I play this game.
The impressions that I had of this specific unspoken code was essentially like this:
Runners vs Runners - Part of my line of thinking was that there simply were not alot of real runners in the streets. Maybe a couple of thousand in the metroplex. One of the greatest assets that these fellows have is the fact that they aren't really all that recognizable as runners, except for to other runners. I would expect alot of competition, conflicts (often bloody), and backstabbing from time to time, but I would see it as a "keep it in the family," mentality. I could see a Johnson trying to hire a couple of runners to find and eliminate another runner, or a team, and the answer being something like, "well, that will cost ALOT more money." Not so much because the runners are harder targets (though they would be), but because of a certain professional courtesy, and because the employers are coming into their house now.
I do however, still believe that this would be closer to the truth than it may seem at first. After all, most of us on this forum (myself included) really aren't the Professional Privateers that we speak for, so I doubt that the answer could really be recognized when it was seen.
I believe that the answer is based off of real professionalism, not just professional acts during a run. I believe that the way a team conducts themselves in the streets dictates their professionalism as much as it does on the job. I think that the VAST majority of those who make a living doing the darker deeds required in the sprawl (likely calling themselves Shadowrunners, only to be smirked at by the pros) would completely agree with the arguements that I have heard (very good, valid points, I might add), but I still believe that this is where the line is drawn between the amateurs and the professionals.
Do I believe that a professional would eliminate a peer? Hell yes, but not lightly, and not without making the employer pay out of the ass. In the end, we are still hired killers and thieves.
I do think, though that the answers that I have read are actually much more accurate for the game than my view of "what would really happen." I beleive that the reality would be that the Shadowrunners would need to have a very strong set of standards to protect the profession itself. If runners had such a system, then they could move more freely, develop reputations that are more than just karma point values, and could count on the idea that if they are targeted by another team, then it is either a team that is obviously amatuer and mercenary, or that there is a real danger because the guy you just had a drink with let you know that you might want to get your things in order. Professional Courtesy.
**Responding to the obvious retort ahead of time. "But I would just kill the guy who told me to get my stuff in order." A professional would have that covered well ahead of time. The target would know he was safe there at that moment, so long as he didn't do anything stupid.
The arguements that were put on this forum were really good, and I appreciate the input. And yes, I am fully aware that I have an overly romantic vision of professionalism, but then again, that is why I play this game.
| QUOTE (Swing Kid @ May 7 2005, 11:22 AM) |
| I wasn't all that heavily opinioned that runners wouldn't kill other runners as much as I was under the idea that there would be certain unspoken understandings between them. |
I think there are unspoken understandings (or at least, understandings that can be distilled into brief apocryphal aphorisms, so they may as well be unsaid), but I don't think that they "jive" with any modern concept of professionalism. For example, off the top of my head:
* "Always watch your six" - Everyone backstabs on the streets, so you need to cover your own ass if you're going to survive.
* "Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies" - The people you trust are the ones that are with you when the chips are down and the drek hits the fan.
* "Conserve ammo" Resources are meant to be used, but they are meant to be used wisely. Don't waste resources, or you may end up running out.
The "rules" of shadowrunning are basically the rules of the streets. Shadowrunning is a profession that is born from the streets, and the rules of the streets are like the law of the jungle. "Only the strong survive" and "Sink or swim". Survival is first and foremost, and everything you do needs to reflect a basic need for survival. The rest of the stuff are just niceties reserved for sims and trids about shadowrunners.
| QUOTE |
| The impressions that I had of this specific unspoken code was essentially like this: I would expect alot of competition, conflicts (often bloody), and backstabbing from time to time, but I would see it as a "keep it in the family," mentality. I could see a Johnson trying to hire a couple of runners to find and eliminate another runner, or a team, and the answer being something like, "well, that will cost ALOT more money." Not so much because the runners are harder targets (though they would be), but because of a certain professional courtesy, and because the employers are coming into their house now. |
First of all, the "keep it in the family" aspect probably applies more to crime syndicates and corporations that self-regulate than the Shadowrunner community at large. It assumes the creation of a social construct beyond a group of immediate friends within a runner team or friends of friends, and while such social constructs exist (Ork Underground, October 25 Alliance, any number of policlubs, the Denver Nexus and the sysops of Shadowland), to apply a universal "Team Shadowrunner" mentality is wishful thinking at best.
Shadowrunners aren't a self-regulating body... no one is going to take a corporation to a war if a shadowrunner gets geeked by a corp, and only the runner's friends will even care whether or not any particular runner dies, at least to the degree of revenge. There are no Shadowrunner unions... shadowrunner newsgroups and other social groups are little more than sewing circles.
Unlike most professions, Shadowrunners have fairly low entrance requirements. Anyone who is willing to commit crimes for nuyen qualifies. Typically, this means a SINless criminal, but to be a shadowrunner means simply having a contact that will give you criminal jobs and the willingness to do those jobs for whatever reason.
The scenario you state "A Johnson hiring a runner team to kill other runners" is actually highly improbable, but not for the reason that you think. If a Johnson needs to kill a runner team, then they don't have to hire a shadowrun team unless they are desperate. A simple ambush or corporate hit squad or sting operation would work nicely (example: The Johnson gets the data, then turns in the identity and location of the runners to the offended corp, claiming to be an "anonymous caller"). Second, there is nothing to stop the Johnson from rehiring the team, setting that team up for an ambush from another Shadowrunner team or hit squad. Subterfuge and deception are the norm among Mr. Johnsons. When was the last time your Johnson told you everything you needed to know about a target? Didn't think so.
Shadowrunners aren't a self-regulating body... no one is going to take a corporation to a war if a shadowrunner gets geeked by a corp, and only the runner's friends will even care whether or not any particular runner dies, at least to the degree of revenge. There are no Shadowrunner unions... shadowrunner newsgroups and other social groups are little more than sewing circles.
Unlike most professions, Shadowrunners have fairly low entrance requirements. Anyone who is willing to commit crimes for nuyen qualifies. Typically, this means a SINless criminal, but to be a shadowrunner means simply having a contact that will give you criminal jobs and the willingness to do those jobs for whatever reason.
The scenario you state "A Johnson hiring a runner team to kill other runners" is actually highly improbable, but not for the reason that you think. If a Johnson needs to kill a runner team, then they don't have to hire a shadowrun team unless they are desperate. A simple ambush or corporate hit squad or sting operation would work nicely (example: The Johnson gets the data, then turns in the identity and location of the runners to the offended corp, claiming to be an "anonymous caller"). Second, there is nothing to stop the Johnson from rehiring the team, setting that team up for an ambush from another Shadowrunner team or hit squad. Subterfuge and deception are the norm among Mr. Johnsons. When was the last time your Johnson told you everything you needed to know about a target? Didn't think so.
| QUOTE |
| If runners had such a system, then they could move more freely, develop reputations that are more than just karma point values, and could count on the idea that if they are targeted by another team, then it is either a team that is obviously amatuer and mercenary, or that there is a real danger because the guy you just had a drink with let you know that you might want to get your things in order. Professional Courtesy. |
The thing is, they don't have such a system. Again "Nothing personal, just business". Remember, the reason shadowrunners exist is because the Corporations want them to exist. They need SINless criminals to commit heinous crimes to improve their bottom line. Such criminals need to be deniable, disposable, and in all likelihood, despicable.
| QUOTE |
| The arguements that were put on this forum were really good, and I appreciate the input. And yes, I am fully aware that I have an overly romantic vision of professionalism, but then again, that is why I play this game. |
I think that overly romanticizing the profession of shadowrunning is what gets the amateur shadowrunners killed. In fact, repeatedly in the literature, a good shadowrunner is a paranoid shadowrunner, and he/she always assumes that a screwover is going to happen and only works with people who have earned his/her trust.
This is not to disparage the benefits of having a good professional reputation. A shadowrunner who adheres to a professional code is likely to get a good reputation from it and can parlay that into more lucrative and comfortable jobs. A good reputation can hook you up with the best in the business. But having such a reputation is in no way a prerequisite nor a standard for living and working as a shadowrunner. Shadowrunners are the lowest bidder. Shadowrunners are the people who have their pricetag set on the low end.
This is not to disparage the benefits of having a good professional reputation. A shadowrunner who adheres to a professional code is likely to get a good reputation from it and can parlay that into more lucrative and comfortable jobs. A good reputation can hook you up with the best in the business. But having such a reputation is in no way a prerequisite nor a standard for living and working as a shadowrunner. Shadowrunners are the lowest bidder. Shadowrunners are the people who have their pricetag set on the low end.
Not our Shadowrunners. 
| QUOTE (Smiley) |
| Not our Shadowrunners. |
Which brings up another unwritten rule: "Know the market and know your price" - Know how much money a typical job is worth, how much you know you are worth, and how much money can buy your services. Not only that, know what the corporations are looking for, who the fixers are talking to, and what the public is watching on the trid. A good shadowrunner will look to the winds of change and figure out where the best job for his/her niche will be. (Besides which, everyone always wants to get out of Seattle, right?
)
| QUOTE (Arethusa) | ||
Hey, nobody's perfect. What's important is that you try. |
Try to what? Write the worst novel ever?
No. I may kill people for a living, but I drive a hybrid because I care about leaving a cleaner world for our children.
That and the Prius just kicks ass. Anyone else here actually own one?
Ah...
Well, the "Prius-driving assassin" comment was in regards to the idea of a mainstream author using a group of ostensibly "good" activists as a straw man for an ad hominem attack on them by portraying them as hypocritical lunatics who see the utility in destroying the world to save it.
IOW... The guys who hire shadowrunners in SR mainstream entertainment would be, for example, eco-terrorists who hire them to bomb an oil refinery and pollute and toxify a good chunk of the north Pacific to prove oil is evil and the refinery operators are evil pigs, and the good corporate security forces must stop them from doing such a thing and in the process show that oil is a better fuel than their idiotic "alternative energy" ideas and that regulations on their operations than the mainstream eco-activists are fighting for against the refinery in a subpolot would actually create more environmental damage than the status quo.
Well, the "Prius-driving assassin" comment was in regards to the idea of a mainstream author using a group of ostensibly "good" activists as a straw man for an ad hominem attack on them by portraying them as hypocritical lunatics who see the utility in destroying the world to save it.
IOW... The guys who hire shadowrunners in SR mainstream entertainment would be, for example, eco-terrorists who hire them to bomb an oil refinery and pollute and toxify a good chunk of the north Pacific to prove oil is evil and the refinery operators are evil pigs, and the good corporate security forces must stop them from doing such a thing and in the process show that oil is a better fuel than their idiotic "alternative energy" ideas and that regulations on their operations than the mainstream eco-activists are fighting for against the refinery in a subpolot would actually create more environmental damage than the status quo.
Here's how I define professionalism. Alot of this comes from my real work life, and when I was in charge of hiring at a retail store.
professional is all about the little things. Do you arrive where you say you will when you say you will?
Does the job get done?
Is it done cleanly, aka no tell tell signs that you were there, or at least very few?
Hitting other runners can be done by a professional, but is usually avoided. You don't know what's going to happen when you kill another runner. Kinda the law of unintended consequences. I kill a, who happens to be hunting down b. b finds out a is killed, and goes back to his games of raping and pillaging at your local stuffer shack. All the sudden, getting a snack is a bit more of a pain. (yes, a stretch of analogy)
What do I do? Do as little illegal as possible. Screw others over as little as possible. Kill as little as possible. If you have to, you have to, but don't litter the floor with bodies.
It makes life simpler.
professional is all about the little things. Do you arrive where you say you will when you say you will?
Does the job get done?
Is it done cleanly, aka no tell tell signs that you were there, or at least very few?
Hitting other runners can be done by a professional, but is usually avoided. You don't know what's going to happen when you kill another runner. Kinda the law of unintended consequences. I kill a, who happens to be hunting down b. b finds out a is killed, and goes back to his games of raping and pillaging at your local stuffer shack. All the sudden, getting a snack is a bit more of a pain. (yes, a stretch of analogy)
What do I do? Do as little illegal as possible. Screw others over as little as possible. Kill as little as possible. If you have to, you have to, but don't litter the floor with bodies.
It makes life simpler.
Crimson, I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that you read the Shadowrun novels. I would say that was your first mistake.
No, I was describing the plot of Michael Crichton's piece of dreck (and I use that word because it is so utterly more profane and disgusting to me than the words "crap" or "shit."), State of Fear. He had the Prius-driving assassin, the hero scientist who knows global warming is complete and utter bullshit, the evil environmentalist villians who seek to further global warming to prove themselves right above all else, and the book based on nothing more than incorrect data or criminally disnigenuous interpretations of scientific data and asserts them as fact while making every environmentalist argument a caricature, setting up easily-knocked down straw men for his hero to debunk and convert throughout the novel.
But then again, this is the man who wrote the eminently scientific Jurassic Park series, so his word is of course paramount above logic and fact.
But I digress... A lot.
Although I have read several SR novels. I can't for the life of me remember anything that happened in them except some snippets of character identifications and some of the events in Koke's novels and Burning Bright, or the technician in Who Hunts the Hunter (?) who goes hunting for something in the sewers and has a skill rating in his field of a 76 (as if that was to relate to the skill rating system of SR since on the back cover he's described as having a skill rating or something like it "higher than God's").
But then again, this is the man who wrote the eminently scientific Jurassic Park series, so his word is of course paramount above logic and fact.
But I digress... A lot.
Although I have read several SR novels. I can't for the life of me remember anything that happened in them except some snippets of character identifications and some of the events in Koke's novels and Burning Bright, or the technician in Who Hunts the Hunter (?) who goes hunting for something in the sewers and has a skill rating in his field of a 76 (as if that was to relate to the skill rating system of SR since on the back cover he's described as having a skill rating or something like it "higher than God's").
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| Crimson, I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that you read |
Fixed.
Ah.... hahaha.
Yeah.
Yeah.
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) |
| I think that overly romanticizing the profession of shadowrunning is what gets the amateur shadowrunners killed. In fact, repeatedly in the literature, a good shadowrunner is a paranoid shadowrunner, and he/she always assumes that a screwover is going to happen and only works with people who have earned his/her trust. |
Actually, I’ve seen paranoia hurt characters more than I saw it help them. It pushes PCs and NPCs away in a manner that can lose friends and even gain enemies. And it can also lead to fatal lack of cooperation among PCs.
Assuming the worst of everyone is just as deadly as assuming the best. Ultimately, you have to trust some people in order to survive in the world of Shadowrun. Yet at the same time, you have to decide how much you will trust any individual. It’s a delicate balance and you have to keep your eyes and ears open to survive.
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