Psionics, the debate Options

[audun]

[Dawnshadow]

I don't know about that.

It's more compatable with most modern views, but most of the training for 'magic' is derived from the various pagan groups, almost all of which believe it is 'magic', instead of psionics. Now, even assuming a random spread of awakenings, I can see the pagans who awakened being the first to actually get the hang of it. That would definately bias people towards magic.

Especially conjuring. It's done in almost every ritual -- conjure guardians to protect the circle. Elemental and spirit/totem.

[ Spoiler ]

Those who are interested -- 4 elemental guardians to protect the circle and add more energy, and whatever dieties are desired or connected to the practitioners to help build up power.

The other thing is, although psionics has been cut down to joke level and the natural reflex is to just make it another tradition, it really isn't as broad reaching as magic in terms of abilities: detection, healing, combat, fire-based elemental manipulations, illusion, telekinetic manipulations. I don't think there are any other spell groups that work -- maybe a few of the transformative manipulations (armour and barrier come to mind), but most of them wouldn't. The first time someone threw a lightning bolt or acid stream, that's way outside of what psionics are capable of. Same with makeover and fix. And even then, physical illusions I doubt would work. But, it is a lot more potent then it currently appears.

I would say it should be another, valid tradition, but with most of the spell groups that don't make sense at really heavy penalties: -5 dice. +3 dice on one spell category of the rest (psion's choice -- they can specialize how they want), +1 dice on the rest (maybe). I would make their conjuring more useful as well -- the aid sorcery, confusion, accident, guard, movement (push their physical limits with psionics). Foci as normal, same with ritual magic -- but they can only be contributing members if a psionic is the leader. They can't contribute to a mage's ritual -- but a mage can contribute to a psionic ritual.

[Ancient History]

<snorts> Please. Anyone who can't come up with a reasonable psionic explanation for nearly any spell effect is either tragically uncreative or woefully ignorant of the popular media these last few decades.

[Nikoli]

Also, the concept of Psionics was a pseudo-scientific bs thing that happened in the Spiritual movement of the late 1920's as a way to integrate early beliefes of magic into a more modern society. There is no reason why a "Psionicist" should be any less powerful than a "Mage". If they were meant to be less powerful overall, then it would be cheaper to awaken as a Psionic person, it's not, therefore there is no logical mechanic in place to explain the lack of power they tried to design in. I think it was more of a way to bite their collective thumb at the players that wanted psionics in their games as opposed to magic as written. But that's me.

[Dawnshadow]

Toxic Wave. I can't think of any psionic description that makes sense for that one -- MAYBE a version of pyrokinesis that just melts down everything in the area of affect -- but that just explains the affects, not the 'cloud of thick choking fumes' or the description of how it creates a 'powerful corrosive that sprays the target'.

Lets see.. core book.. Not too many groups of spells that aren't included really. Only ones I'm seeing with spells that don't make sense are illusions (sadly enough -- but stealth and silence might be explained with telekinetic magic to prevent sound waves from passing), elemental manipulations and transformative manipulations:
acid stream/toxic wave, lightning/ball lightning, ice sheet, petrify, shadow, chaos, chaotic world, trid entertainment, improved invisibility, physical mask, trid phantasm, stealth and silence.

Shoot. Forgot Control Manipulations -- those are good for psionics too.

Beyond that, any of the spells that transform items.

Psionics have good explanations for a lot of stuff. That doesn't mean that they can explain everything possible.

[Eyeless Blond]

[Apathy]

[Reaver]

I agree with AH. Anyone who can't attribute just about any spell effect to a psionic "power" is tragically uncreative. Illusions especially would be a staple for a psion, generating illusions within a persons mind and making them see, hear or feel things that aren't there. Manipulations to control or confuse others. Tele, pyro and narious other kinetics to cause damaging effects. Causing lethal bio-feedback in a persons brain with a combat style spell.

As is always the case with any magic, your imagination is your only limitation. ;o)

BTW, as a GM, I do have a psion in my game. That character does require some extra over-head on my part to make sure the spell effect is legal. I also have a house rule that psions are a highly aspected style of magic, falling under the aspected power rules on pg. 85 of MitS.

[weblife]

I don't think the Psi's are all bad. Except for the whole No Foci deal.. but that alone also pretty much ruins the Psi's. :(

[Reaver]

[Dawnshadow]

Continue reading what I said, don't just take it out of context.. illusions have spells that don't make sense for psionics.

They have physical ones that affect machines -- things without minds. How does any sort of telepathic ability affect something without a mind? That makes up about half the spells? Something like that.

Tearing apart water molecules and preventing them from interacting with each other, telekinetically? Doesn't seem reasonable to my mind. But, it could be the explanation used. By the same token, lightning is the telekinetic rubbing of particles in the air to generate a charge, directed with telekinesis as well? Especially since the spell has to work in all environments.. and there are several that do not have much water (or water vapor) accessable at all.

I'm sorry, but that's just pushing it -- I've never seen any story where a psionic has been able to do either. I have seen mages release acidic spells, and lightning bolts though. I can't see anyone convincing themselves that they can do that psionically. But, the suggestion I made for a psionic tradition would still allow it.. at a lot fewer dice, which just makes sense to me.

[Cray74]

[Herald of Verjig...]

You want a psionic justification for acid stream?

Quantum physics can be interpreted that observation defines truth. It is mathematically valid for an effect to exist merely because it is observed to exist, partially breaking the causal system that is most commonly used to justify reality. Therefore, if you can force yourself to observe effects with no causal process, the events will have happened without bothering with the traditional physics of the situation.

[Cray74]

[Reaver]

[wagnern]

If psionics are weak, and some one wants to play a psion. They could just make a mage, and pick only spells that fit psycic powers*. Ask the GM if they can explain his powers that way. Who is to say there can't be a group who uses magic by viewing it as psionics? Just instead of pooring through acient tombes, or talking to mystical totems, they consult the wisdom of their elders and meditate. No real game advantage, just a bit of flavor. The GM may rule that inorder to Initate they must find a circle of Psions, and they can't just go to Wizard-Books and get a capichino and a mannaball spell. (well, he could, but only the capichino would be any use to him).

* I know some one can cheese ball almost any spell into an psionic explination, but if they realy want to have a flavor a good player will avoid some spells even though they would be usefull if they don't fit the feal of a psicic.

[psykotisk_overle...]

Wow, paranormality people are weird.

Well, with all that electrokineticism and all explained I see no reason to restrain psis from using any spells.
Does anyone have any specific home-ruled and not sucky version of Psis?

[Cray74]

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Dawnshadow]

I don't agree with the physical illusions mostly because I can't see how they make sense psionically. To fool cameras and so on, it has to physically manifest, and psionics is the mind. I just don't see how it could work.

Acid spells are the biggest problem. I'd probably allow a spell that just makes electronics fry, but I doubt I'd allow lightning bolts.

The thing is, everyone's proven that they can come up with an explanation for funky spells as psionics.. but they haven't given nice, plausible ones -- just horribly precise things that have to inspire headaches -- and that most psionics just can't do. They aren't skilled enough, they aren't good enough. Which, to my mind, indicates something like massive dice penalties, or massive target number modifiers. I favour dice penalties -- fits with other totem modifiers. Make them extraordinarily high, and you've got spells that psionics can learn -- with great difficulty, and can cast -- with great difficulty.

[BitBasher]

[Apathy]

[Cray74]

[audun]

Everyone seems to miss my point. If psionics wasn't gimped, magic in SR could all be explained as Psi. It's quite plain that any spell could be explained within the limits of Psi, and if you view Spirits as mental constructs any spirit would indeed be a mental construct. That would make Magic=Psi. You could call it magic all you wanted to, but it would be still be Psi.
Parapsychology and psionic powers is quasi-scientific and would be far easier for the Western world to adapt to than the occult theories of Hermetics and other traditions. It would be the leading explanation of magic. It was untill the 2030's, but since Magic works better than Psi it was dropped (in-game).
Gimping Psi creates the metagame result of SRs "Cyber and Magic" instead of "Cyber and Psi" without much in-game rationalization.
Though, there's no saying that Psionics could make a comeback by 2070. A breaktrough at New Jersey's Psionic Studies Institute could make psionics a viable tradition again and send ripples troughout the academic world. Sounds like fun.

[mfb]

that's one way to look at it. the other way to look at it is that all psi is magic--that there's nothing any more special or different about psionics than there is about totemic magic. that's the way that makes the most sense to me.