Full Version: Psionics
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) | ||
Except that it's not. If it were as you say, then psions would just be another tradition like wujen or voodun, with the differences between them being trappings and types of spirits summonable as is the case for all other traditions. Psionicists in SR are, b the rules as written, specifically singled out as gimped. They are painted in the same brush as the insane and the mentally incompetent, and as best as I can tell for no good reason other than A) the writers wanted other mages to have someone else to feel superior to, or B) because someone at FASA doesn't like New Agers.  |
It's C) if Psi was just as powerful as Magic, all magic in SR would be Psi. They wanted Magic, not Psi.
By the current rules, Psionics is a flawed approach to magic, since it's failing to realize that it is indeed Magic. If Psionics was just as powerful it would probably be the standard approach to magic by most in the Western world. Psionics fits much better with our way of viewing the world than Hermetic theory.
I don't know about that.
It's more compatable with most modern views, but most of the training for 'magic' is derived from the various pagan groups, almost all of which believe it is 'magic', instead of psionics. Now, even assuming a random spread of awakenings, I can see the pagans who awakened being the first to actually get the hang of it. That would definately bias people towards magic.
Especially conjuring. It's done in almost every ritual -- conjure guardians to protect the circle. Elemental and spirit/totem.
The other thing is, although psionics has been cut down to joke level and the natural reflex is to just make it another tradition, it really isn't as broad reaching as magic in terms of abilities: detection, healing, combat, fire-based elemental manipulations, illusion, telekinetic manipulations. I don't think there are any other spell groups that work -- maybe a few of the transformative manipulations (armour and barrier come to mind), but most of them wouldn't. The first time someone threw a lightning bolt or acid stream, that's way outside of what psionics are capable of. Same with makeover and fix. And even then, physical illusions I doubt would work. But, it is a lot more potent then it currently appears.
I would say it should be another, valid tradition, but with most of the spell groups that don't make sense at really heavy penalties: -5 dice. +3 dice on one spell category of the rest (psion's choice -- they can specialize how they want), +1 dice on the rest (maybe). I would make their conjuring more useful as well -- the aid sorcery, confusion, accident, guard, movement (push their physical limits with psionics). Foci as normal, same with ritual magic -- but they can only be contributing members if a psionic is the leader. They can't contribute to a mage's ritual -- but a mage can contribute to a psionic ritual.
It's more compatable with most modern views, but most of the training for 'magic' is derived from the various pagan groups, almost all of which believe it is 'magic', instead of psionics. Now, even assuming a random spread of awakenings, I can see the pagans who awakened being the first to actually get the hang of it. That would definately bias people towards magic.
Especially conjuring. It's done in almost every ritual -- conjure guardians to protect the circle. Elemental and spirit/totem.
[ Spoiler ]
The other thing is, although psionics has been cut down to joke level and the natural reflex is to just make it another tradition, it really isn't as broad reaching as magic in terms of abilities: detection, healing, combat, fire-based elemental manipulations, illusion, telekinetic manipulations. I don't think there are any other spell groups that work -- maybe a few of the transformative manipulations (armour and barrier come to mind), but most of them wouldn't. The first time someone threw a lightning bolt or acid stream, that's way outside of what psionics are capable of. Same with makeover and fix. And even then, physical illusions I doubt would work. But, it is a lot more potent then it currently appears.
I would say it should be another, valid tradition, but with most of the spell groups that don't make sense at really heavy penalties: -5 dice. +3 dice on one spell category of the rest (psion's choice -- they can specialize how they want), +1 dice on the rest (maybe). I would make their conjuring more useful as well -- the aid sorcery, confusion, accident, guard, movement (push their physical limits with psionics). Foci as normal, same with ritual magic -- but they can only be contributing members if a psionic is the leader. They can't contribute to a mage's ritual -- but a mage can contribute to a psionic ritual.
<snorts> Please. Anyone who can't come up with a reasonable psionic explanation for nearly any spell effect is either tragically uncreative or woefully ignorant of the popular media these last few decades.
Also, the concept of Psionics was a pseudo-scientific bs thing that happened in the Spiritual movement of the late 1920's as a way to integrate early beliefes of magic into a more modern society. There is no reason why a "Psionicist" should be any less powerful than a "Mage". If they were meant to be less powerful overall, then it would be cheaper to awaken as a Psionic person, it's not, therefore there is no logical mechanic in place to explain the lack of power they tried to design in. I think it was more of a way to bite their collective thumb at the players that wanted psionics in their games as opposed to magic as written. But that's me.
Toxic Wave. I can't think of any psionic description that makes sense for that one -- MAYBE a version of pyrokinesis that just melts down everything in the area of affect -- but that just explains the affects, not the 'cloud of thick choking fumes' or the description of how it creates a 'powerful corrosive that sprays the target'.
Lets see.. core book.. Not too many groups of spells that aren't included really. Only ones I'm seeing with spells that don't make sense are illusions (sadly enough -- but stealth and silence might be explained with telekinetic magic to prevent sound waves from passing), elemental manipulations and transformative manipulations:
acid stream/toxic wave, lightning/ball lightning, ice sheet, petrify, shadow, chaos, chaotic world, trid entertainment, improved invisibility, physical mask, trid phantasm, stealth and silence.
Shoot. Forgot Control Manipulations -- those are good for psionics too.
Beyond that, any of the spells that transform items.
Psionics have good explanations for a lot of stuff. That doesn't mean that they can explain everything possible.
Lets see.. core book.. Not too many groups of spells that aren't included really. Only ones I'm seeing with spells that don't make sense are illusions (sadly enough -- but stealth and silence might be explained with telekinetic magic to prevent sound waves from passing), elemental manipulations and transformative manipulations:
acid stream/toxic wave, lightning/ball lightning, ice sheet, petrify, shadow, chaos, chaotic world, trid entertainment, improved invisibility, physical mask, trid phantasm, stealth and silence.
Shoot. Forgot Control Manipulations -- those are good for psionics too.
Beyond that, any of the spells that transform items.
Psionics have good explanations for a lot of stuff. That doesn't mean that they can explain everything possible.
| QUOTE (Dawnshadow @ May 9 2005, 09:17 AM) |
| Toxic Wave. I can't think of any psionic description that makes sense for that one -- MAYBE a version of pyrokinesis that just melts down everything in the area of affect -- but that just explains the affects, not the 'cloud of thick choking fumes' or the description of how it creates a 'powerful corrosive that sprays the target'. |
A very specialized form of telekinesis, where you split water molecules into H+ (strongly acidic) and OH- (strongly basic) ions (Edit): and prevent them from interacting with each other, but not other molecules, for a short time. The result, when you can pull it off, is devastating: strong bases react quite violently with organic matter, and acids with metals. Of course this is a very simplistic view of the process, but then I'm not going over the pages and pages of theory (read: spell formula) here, certainly not for free.
Ancient's absolutely right about the spell "limitation" not really being a limitation at all. The things that really gimp the psionicist is the tragically weak spirits, the inability to be an Aspected Psion, the inability to banish/control other mage's spirits, the exclusivity of their ritual magic, groups, spell formulae, etc. But the biggest gmp of all is the lack of foci: no sustainning foci, no Expendable Spell foci, etc. of any kind. The spell restriction bit, while a small roadblock, is no more one than the shaman's totem enforcing a set of core values, or a mage needing a decent amount of physical space for setting up a hermetic circle.
| QUOTE |
| Only ones I'm seeing with spells that don't make sense are illusions |
How about "The act of thinking generates a resonance that can be picked up by other minds. This is the basis for such phenomenon as telepathy and remote viewing. Exceptionally adept minds are sometimes able to send thier thoughts with such power and conviction that they can actually overwrite the thoughts or perceptions of those that they concentrate on. At a lower intensity, this manifests as the psionic sending out communications to others (the subject would be able to distinguish the communication from their own thoughts). When the power of the projection is increased, the psionist can so completely overwhelm the subjects own brain patterns that they will sense what the psionist wishes them to sense [illusion], and think/feel what the psionis wishes them to feel [control thoughts/emotions/actions]."
I agree with AH. Anyone who can't attribute just about any spell effect to a psionic "power" is tragically uncreative. Illusions especially would be a staple for a psion, generating illusions within a persons mind and making them see, hear or feel things that aren't there. Manipulations to control or confuse others. Tele, pyro and narious other kinetics to cause damaging effects. Causing lethal bio-feedback in a persons brain with a combat style spell.
As is always the case with any magic, your imagination is your only limitation. ;o)
BTW, as a GM, I do have a psion in my game. That character does require some extra over-head on my part to make sure the spell effect is legal. I also have a house rule that psions are a highly aspected style of magic, falling under the aspected power rules on pg. 85 of MitS.
As is always the case with any magic, your imagination is your only limitation. ;o)
BTW, as a GM, I do have a psion in my game. That character does require some extra over-head on my part to make sure the spell effect is legal. I also have a house rule that psions are a highly aspected style of magic, falling under the aspected power rules on pg. 85 of MitS.
I don't think the Psi's are all bad. Except for the whole No Foci deal.. but that alone also pretty much ruins the Psi's. 
| QUOTE (weblife) |
| I don't think the Psi's are all bad. Except for the whole No Foci deal.. but that alone also pretty much ruins the Psi's. |
The no foci can be easily done with a house rule requiring them to use psionic aspected foci only. The No Foci makes absolutely no sense.
Continue reading what I said, don't just take it out of context.. illusions have spells that don't make sense for psionics.
They have physical ones that affect machines -- things without minds. How does any sort of telepathic ability affect something without a mind? That makes up about half the spells? Something like that.
Tearing apart water molecules and preventing them from interacting with each other, telekinetically? Doesn't seem reasonable to my mind. But, it could be the explanation used. By the same token, lightning is the telekinetic rubbing of particles in the air to generate a charge, directed with telekinesis as well? Especially since the spell has to work in all environments.. and there are several that do not have much water (or water vapor) accessable at all.
I'm sorry, but that's just pushing it -- I've never seen any story where a psionic has been able to do either. I have seen mages release acidic spells, and lightning bolts though. I can't see anyone convincing themselves that they can do that psionically. But, the suggestion I made for a psionic tradition would still allow it.. at a lot fewer dice, which just makes sense to me.
They have physical ones that affect machines -- things without minds. How does any sort of telepathic ability affect something without a mind? That makes up about half the spells? Something like that.
Tearing apart water molecules and preventing them from interacting with each other, telekinetically? Doesn't seem reasonable to my mind. But, it could be the explanation used. By the same token, lightning is the telekinetic rubbing of particles in the air to generate a charge, directed with telekinesis as well? Especially since the spell has to work in all environments.. and there are several that do not have much water (or water vapor) accessable at all.
I'm sorry, but that's just pushing it -- I've never seen any story where a psionic has been able to do either. I have seen mages release acidic spells, and lightning bolts though. I can't see anyone convincing themselves that they can do that psionically. But, the suggestion I made for a psionic tradition would still allow it.. at a lot fewer dice, which just makes sense to me.
| QUOTE (Dawnshadow) |
| They have physical ones that affect machines -- things without minds. How does any sort of telepathic ability affect something without a mind? That makes up about half the spells? Something like that. |
Explanation 1: Photokinesis and telekinesis. Use the mind to generate actual light and sound.
Crackling light shows are a staple of psionics - how much more boring would DnD Psionic Handbook art be if the psions weren't always sheathed in glowing psionic light?
Explanation 2: Electrokinesis and photokinesis with a fine degree of control to manipulate the electronics and/or photonics of the sensors.
| QUOTE |
| Tearing apart water molecules and preventing them from interacting with each other, telekinetically? Doesn't seem reasonable to my mind. |
If at first the handwavium doesn't success, try try again.
Next explanation for toxic wave: transmutation of air molecules into nitric acid, maybe some with pyrokinesis tossed in to make the stuff especially aggressive.
Third explanation: forget chemistry, just say it's ectoplasm impressed with manifested hate and anger.
| QUOTE |
| By the same token, lightning is the telekinetic rubbing of particles in the air to generate a charge, directed with telekinesis as well? |
How about just straight forward electrokinesis?
A quick google search for electrokinesis turns some up some weird sites. Here's one that teaches anyone how to use electrokinesis:
http://home.xtra.co.nz/hosts/Wingmakers/El...trokinesis.html
You want a psionic justification for acid stream?
Quantum physics can be interpreted that observation defines truth. It is mathematically valid for an effect to exist merely because it is observed to exist, partially breaking the causal system that is most commonly used to justify reality. Therefore, if you can force yourself to observe effects with no causal process, the events will have happened without bothering with the traditional physics of the situation.
Quantum physics can be interpreted that observation defines truth. It is mathematically valid for an effect to exist merely because it is observed to exist, partially breaking the causal system that is most commonly used to justify reality. Therefore, if you can force yourself to observe effects with no causal process, the events will have happened without bothering with the traditional physics of the situation.
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| Quantum physics can be interpreted that observation defines truth. It is mathematically valid for an effect to exist merely because it is observed to exist, partially breaking the causal system that is most commonly used to justify reality. Therefore, if you can force yourself to observe effects with no causal process, the events will have happened without bothering with the traditional physics of the situation. |
You, sir, rule.
| QUOTE (Dawnshadow) |
| Continue reading what I said, don't just take it out of context.. illusions have spells that don't make sense for psionics. They have physical ones that affect machines -- things without minds. How does any sort of telepathic ability affect something without a mind? That makes up about half the spells? Something like that. Tearing apart water molecules and preventing them from interacting with each other, telekinetically? Doesn't seem reasonable to my mind. But, it could be the explanation used. By the same token, lightning is the telekinetic rubbing of particles in the air to generate a charge, directed with telekinesis as well? Especially since the spell has to work in all environments.. and there are several that do not have much water (or water vapor) accessable at all. I'm sorry, but that's just pushing it -- I've never seen any story where a psionic has been able to do either. I have seen mages release acidic spells, and lightning bolts though. I can't see anyone convincing themselves that they can do that psionically. But, the suggestion I made for a psionic tradition would still allow it.. at a lot fewer dice, which just makes sense to me. |
I think just about every illusion spell is within limits of a psion, but you can always make a house rule that allows a psion to only manipulate living minds. Frankly, I think it's a little uncreative.
Acid spells I don't allow a psion to do. But fire and electricity, oh yea.
Something else to think about. Maybe allow a psion to be limited starting out, but as they initiate and become more powerful, thier degree of fine manipulation increases, allowing them to do greater things. Just a thought.
If psionics are weak, and some one wants to play a psion. They could just make a mage, and pick only spells that fit psycic powers*. Ask the GM if they can explain his powers that way. Who is to say there can't be a group who uses magic by viewing it as psionics? Just instead of pooring through acient tombes, or talking to mystical totems, they consult the wisdom of their elders and meditate. No real game advantage, just a bit of flavor. The GM may rule that inorder to Initate they must find a circle of Psions, and they can't just go to Wizard-Books and get a capichino and a mannaball spell. (well, he could, but only the capichino would be any use to him).
* I know some one can cheese ball almost any spell into an psionic explination, but if they realy want to have a flavor a good player will avoid some spells even though they would be usefull if they don't fit the feal of a psicic.
* I know some one can cheese ball almost any spell into an psionic explination, but if they realy want to have a flavor a good player will avoid some spells even though they would be usefull if they don't fit the feal of a psicic.
Wow, paranormality people are weird.
Well, with all that electrokineticism and all explained I see no reason to restrain psis from using any spells.
Does anyone have any specific home-ruled and not sucky version of Psis?
Well, with all that electrokineticism and all explained I see no reason to restrain psis from using any spells.
Does anyone have any specific home-ruled and not sucky version of Psis?
| QUOTE |
| Third explanation: forget chemistry, just say it's ectoplasm impressed with manifested hate and anger. |
After the awakening ectoplasm became very angry!
| QUOTE (psykotisk_overlegen) |
| Does anyone have any specific home-ruled and not sucky version of Psis? |
Sure. Make a normal mage, but call the PC a psionic instead of a mage. Any other changes, such as methods of casting spel-...er, generating psionic effects...are a matter of roleplaying.
| QUOTE (psykotisk_overlegen) |
| Does anyone have any specific home-ruled and not sucky version of Psis? |
A relatively easy one (still may be limited, but not near as bad).
As long as the PC can BS a reason for any spell, it's allowed. They must do their own enchanting for any foci, because even "imprinting an echo of their own mind" on a device already "polluted with another's subconscious" won't work. To make their spirits better, allow multiple initiations to take expansions on invoking that allow additional powers, but only ones observed in other bound spirit types (one new power each additional invoking metamagic).
I don't agree with the physical illusions mostly because I can't see how they make sense psionically. To fool cameras and so on, it has to physically manifest, and psionics is the mind. I just don't see how it could work.
Acid spells are the biggest problem. I'd probably allow a spell that just makes electronics fry, but I doubt I'd allow lightning bolts.
The thing is, everyone's proven that they can come up with an explanation for funky spells as psionics.. but they haven't given nice, plausible ones -- just horribly precise things that have to inspire headaches -- and that most psionics just can't do. They aren't skilled enough, they aren't good enough. Which, to my mind, indicates something like massive dice penalties, or massive target number modifiers. I favour dice penalties -- fits with other totem modifiers. Make them extraordinarily high, and you've got spells that psionics can learn -- with great difficulty, and can cast -- with great difficulty.
Acid spells are the biggest problem. I'd probably allow a spell that just makes electronics fry, but I doubt I'd allow lightning bolts.
The thing is, everyone's proven that they can come up with an explanation for funky spells as psionics.. but they haven't given nice, plausible ones -- just horribly precise things that have to inspire headaches -- and that most psionics just can't do. They aren't skilled enough, they aren't good enough. Which, to my mind, indicates something like massive dice penalties, or massive target number modifiers. I favour dice penalties -- fits with other totem modifiers. Make them extraordinarily high, and you've got spells that psionics can learn -- with great difficulty, and can cast -- with great difficulty.
| QUOTE (Cray74) | ||
You, sir, rule. |
Someone's into bistromathics. Or bought into the bullshit that is "What the bleep.."
| QUOTE |
| After the awakening ectoplasm became very angry! |
Awakened on the wrong side of the bed?
| QUOTE (Dawnshadow) |
| I don't agree with the physical illusions mostly because I can't see how they make sense psionically. To fool cameras and so on, it has to physically manifest, and psionics is the mind. I just don't see how it could work. |
So, you can buy that psionics can manipulate mass at a distance (telekinesis), but can't manipulate light at a distance (photokinesis)?
Telekinesis is a pretty strong physical manifestation of psionics - it ain't just in the mind when you throw boulders around with mental powers. I don't see light and sound manipulation being much more difficult - they'd just need a finer touch.
How about pyrokinesis?
| QUOTE |
| I favour dice penalties -- fits with other totem modifiers. Make them extraordinarily high, and you've got spells that psionics can learn -- with great difficulty, and can cast -- with great difficulty. |
If that works in your home game, then go for it.
Everyone seems to miss my point. If psionics wasn't gimped, magic in SR could all be explained as Psi. It's quite plain that any spell could be explained within the limits of Psi, and if you view Spirits as mental constructs any spirit would indeed be a mental construct. That would make Magic=Psi. You could call it magic all you wanted to, but it would be still be Psi.
Parapsychology and psionic powers is quasi-scientific and would be far easier for the Western world to adapt to than the occult theories of Hermetics and other traditions. It would be the leading explanation of magic. It was untill the 2030's, but since Magic works better than Psi it was dropped (in-game).
Gimping Psi creates the metagame result of SRs "Cyber and Magic" instead of "Cyber and Psi" without much in-game rationalization.
Though, there's no saying that Psionics could make a comeback by 2070. A breaktrough at New Jersey's Psionic Studies Institute could make psionics a viable tradition again and send ripples troughout the academic world. Sounds like fun.
Parapsychology and psionic powers is quasi-scientific and would be far easier for the Western world to adapt to than the occult theories of Hermetics and other traditions. It would be the leading explanation of magic. It was untill the 2030's, but since Magic works better than Psi it was dropped (in-game).
Gimping Psi creates the metagame result of SRs "Cyber and Magic" instead of "Cyber and Psi" without much in-game rationalization.
Though, there's no saying that Psionics could make a comeback by 2070. A breaktrough at New Jersey's Psionic Studies Institute could make psionics a viable tradition again and send ripples troughout the academic world. Sounds like fun.
that's one way to look at it. the other way to look at it is that all psi is magic--that there's nothing any more special or different about psionics than there is about totemic magic. that's the way that makes the most sense to me.
I used Psionic in a campaign several years back. I ran it like a Physical Adept. A list of powers, with costs. They were classic Psi powers - Telepathy, Telekinesis, Clairaudience etc. The powers themsleves were very similar to their magical counter part, but more powerful - greater range, lifting ability, etc. Use of the powers were drain based, with higher drain for greater range, weight, etc.
It was a long time ago - none of my pc's ever ran one - they were mostly NPC types. Plot hooks etc.
It was a long time ago - none of my pc's ever ran one - they were mostly NPC types. Plot hooks etc.
| QUOTE (mfb @ May 9 2005, 03:09 PM) |
| that's one way to look at it. the other way to look at it is that all psi is magic--that there's nothing any more special or different about psionics than there is about totemic magic. that's the way that makes the most sense to me. |
You mean like the book says?
| QUOTE (MitS @ 26-27) |
| An Awakened character who follows this path believes all magical abilities spring from the unleashed power of the human mind... A psionic character is a form of full magician (p. 160, SR3). The psionic operates in exactly the same way as any other magician, with certain limitations created by the character's belief system. |
| QUOTE (audun) |
| Everyone seems to miss my point. If psionics wasn't gimped, magic in SR could all be explained as Psi. It's quite plain that any spell could be explained within the limits of Psi, and if you view Spirits as mental constructs any spirit would indeed be a mental construct. That would make Magic=Psi. You could call it magic all you wanted to, but it would be still be Psi. |
And, curiously enough, the reverse would also be true. You could call psionics just a form of magic.
Then the question of "is magic psionics, or is psionics magic?" would have to be settled by Shadowrun's writers, who Crimsondude 2.0 just quoted.
The writers settling something? Preposterous !!
What I'm curious about is what *exactly* makes a psionicist weaker than a mage? Psionicists believe that, "all magical abilities spring from the unleashed power of the human mind." Great. Where do magical abilities come from for Hermetics then, if not from the human mind? What manipulates the mana/spiritual energy/whatever for magical abilities, other than the (meta)human mind?
Do they not believe in mana? Then how can they astrally perceive/project? What specific delusion makes psions unable to work with other magic-types and unable to use foci that doesn't apply to at least one of the other traditions of hermetics, shamans, wujen, hougans, physical mages, etc?
Do they not believe in mana? Then how can they astrally perceive/project? What specific delusion makes psions unable to work with other magic-types and unable to use foci that doesn't apply to at least one of the other traditions of hermetics, shamans, wujen, hougans, physical mages, etc?
I think it's more that the psion beleives the power itself comes from within him, whereas the Shaman "knows" the power is given to him by his Totem, and the Hermetic "knows" that the ability to channel the power comes from within him (but the power itself from elsewhere).
I guess the game developers think that means the psion is limited to the power he can call up from inside of himself (and takes Drain, etc, from wearing himself out by creating, not just manipulating, that energy) -- and everyone else and their gramma just channels existing forces, instead of trying to dig up the energy on their own. So psions are weaker, because they limit themselves.
Same way a dude riding a pedal bike can't go as fast as a guy riding a motorcycle. They both have wheels, both have handlebars, both go faster than a guy strolling along just on his own two feet -- but the psion's gotta work the pedals himself, and the shaman/mage/whatever just has to steer as the motor does all the work.
Or, uhh, something.
I guess the game developers think that means the psion is limited to the power he can call up from inside of himself (and takes Drain, etc, from wearing himself out by creating, not just manipulating, that energy) -- and everyone else and their gramma just channels existing forces, instead of trying to dig up the energy on their own. So psions are weaker, because they limit themselves.
Same way a dude riding a pedal bike can't go as fast as a guy riding a motorcycle. They both have wheels, both have handlebars, both go faster than a guy strolling along just on his own two feet -- but the psion's gotta work the pedals himself, and the shaman/mage/whatever just has to steer as the motor does all the work.
Or, uhh, something.
From the metagaming perspective, Shadowrun is supposed to be the game that combines cyberpunk and magic, not cyberpunk and psionics. Thus, the game designers probably felt that a world with a psionic explanation for magic would undermine the central premise of the game. By relegating psionics as "weak magic", you kill two birds with one stone: You avoid turning Shadowrun into yet another "cyberpunk + psionics transhuman game" and you avoid people clamoring for tacking on psionics rules to the system, like a certain other gaming system. "Oh, here's this extra magic system, but we're calling it psionics. Umm. Buy our books?"
I took the description of the Psionics they had in MiTS and basicallly threw it out. I borrowed from the game that everyone gets blasted for mentioning and created the tradition of Psion and Psychic Warriors.
The Psions can learn any spell, use/empower Foci, Initiate, gain metapsionics, astrally perceive, and astrally project. Now Conjuring works differently, depending on the what the player decides. At character creation they are given the choice of Elemental or Nature spirits and follow the rules for those summoning types. Now how the character explains it is up to them but it must have a quasi scientific nature. One player took nature spirits and explained it as summon the psychic imprint of the area. Another took Elemental and explained it as taking ether and imbuing it with an easily grasped quality (Earth, Fire, Water, or Air) and then imprinting a bit of his mind upon it.
The psychic warriors are the Magician's Way adepts, who can rationalize that some of their powers are focused on their own body. To these character I give them the option of being able to conjure or access to astral space.
Now is any of this broken? No. Does it make psion more prevalent than hermetics or shamans? No. Does it penalize a character for want a character slightly out of the norm? No. Does it make my life easier? Yes.
Thus endeth the my example.
The Psions can learn any spell, use/empower Foci, Initiate, gain metapsionics, astrally perceive, and astrally project. Now Conjuring works differently, depending on the what the player decides. At character creation they are given the choice of Elemental or Nature spirits and follow the rules for those summoning types. Now how the character explains it is up to them but it must have a quasi scientific nature. One player took nature spirits and explained it as summon the psychic imprint of the area. Another took Elemental and explained it as taking ether and imbuing it with an easily grasped quality (Earth, Fire, Water, or Air) and then imprinting a bit of his mind upon it.
The psychic warriors are the Magician's Way adepts, who can rationalize that some of their powers are focused on their own body. To these character I give them the option of being able to conjure or access to astral space.
Now is any of this broken? No. Does it make psion more prevalent than hermetics or shamans? No. Does it penalize a character for want a character slightly out of the norm? No. Does it make my life easier? Yes.
Thus endeth the my example.
I'll just quote myself:
| QUOTE (Kesh) |
| "Tapping the Universal Consciousness/World Memory" or simply manipulating "psychic energies" are common concepts in psychic workings. Then there are chakras and other "body energies" that other psychics manipulate. I'd say there are plenty of 2064 psychics who just shrug and say, "yeah, you know mana? Same thing, different words." Others may deny they're the same thing, but they would still get the same results, just as a shaman/houngan/hermetic/miracle worker still get the same results from different processes of manipulating mana even if they disagree on what they're actually doing. If an individual psychic chooses to limit themselves (ie. becoming a "telepath adept" or "ghost channeler adept"), that makes sense to me. But there should still be "full psychics" with the same mechanics as a full mage / full shaman / full houngan / etc. As I see it, a psychic would just see an hermetic as someone who uses their intricate calculations and symbols as a focus for their mental energies, which create a construct of pure psychic energy that happens to look and act like a fire elemental; or call upon a spiritual being that happens to enjoy appearing as a fire elemental. (Whether it really is a fire elemental or not is academic, and most 'runner psychics probably wouldn't care to debate the point. It simply is what it is.) A shaman's chanting and ecstatic state let her reach a condition of mental openness, manipulating her enemy's physical energies until they begin to hemorrhage. (Mana Bolt.) A houngan being ridden by a loa has called upon a spirit (or simply a mental construct) and channeled it into his body, drawing upon its power. Astral projection is just another term for OBE (Out of Body Experiences). Watchers and allies are the psychic/mage investing a piece of their own consciousness into physical/spiritual form. Other spirits may or may not be the same. An astral quest could be explained any number of ways, including an OBE sending the psychic's mind into the mental realms above our own, venturing into the universal unconsciousness itself, or simply delving inwards to the psychic's own mind and dreams given form. Psychics see magic differently, and only a foolish one would claim that nothing at all was happening. That's why the canon psionics in SR seem so silly: they can only exist by ignoring the realities of magic inherent in the world around them. Those people I can understand being crippled magically... but there should be many, many more psychics who can understand magic through the concept of psychic powers, just as others filter magic through miracles or hermetic symbols. |
Here's another reason why psionics are crippled (hypothetical only): Psionics are crippled because of a lack of a support group/network. Shamans/Voodoun can conceivably be loners, because their totem/loa teaches them their magic (precluding the need for a social construct, although they tend to form social networks anyway), but Hermetic magic by its very nature requires other Hermetics... you need libraries to learn magical skills. Sure, it can be likely that a hermetic "discovers" an old book of magic that he learns some power from, but by and large, Hermetics are taught in a scholastic setting (at least Mentor/Student), and they need references (expensive and large in MP size) to learn how to do their thing, which necessitates the existence of a magical support social construct.
Psionics are crippled because they are few and far between... the occasional person who actively denies the magic around them, and has to rationalize all magical phenomena within their own limited perspective, or else risk losing their power. They have no "avatar" (loa or totem) to guide them, nor do they have the vast support social network that hermetics have. The lucky ones get accepted into the Psion academy at New Jersey, but the rest of them think that they are alone and lonely, a rarity in a world where magical talent already is rare. Being a Psion would be like being a 1st edition DnD groupie: You are a small fraction of an already small gamer population, everyone else thinks you are outmoded and out of date and looks upon you with disdain, and yet, you still think you are "cooler" than everyone else despite this.
Psionics are crippled because they are few and far between... the occasional person who actively denies the magic around them, and has to rationalize all magical phenomena within their own limited perspective, or else risk losing their power. They have no "avatar" (loa or totem) to guide them, nor do they have the vast support social network that hermetics have. The lucky ones get accepted into the Psion academy at New Jersey, but the rest of them think that they are alone and lonely, a rarity in a world where magical talent already is rare. Being a Psion would be like being a 1st edition DnD groupie: You are a small fraction of an already small gamer population, everyone else thinks you are outmoded and out of date and looks upon you with disdain, and yet, you still think you are "cooler" than everyone else despite this.
For what it's worth...
Check out 'Authentic Thaumaturgy', by Bonewits. The author graduated with a degree in Magick from a California University.
Basically, magic psi are the same thing-mages utilize psi abilities/techniques to manipulate magickal energy. For SR, I'd guess that Hermetics tap outside forces, utilizing these mental pathways and disciplines, while Psis tap the power of their own mind, or possibly the Collective Subconscious. Almost any magical ability can be explained by psi-even foci (crystals, anyone?).
Of course, I'd WAY up the Drain for any Psi ability, seeing how it's leveraging the universe against the Psi's will...
R
Check out 'Authentic Thaumaturgy', by Bonewits. The author graduated with a degree in Magick from a California University.
Basically, magic psi are the same thing-mages utilize psi abilities/techniques to manipulate magickal energy. For SR, I'd guess that Hermetics tap outside forces, utilizing these mental pathways and disciplines, while Psis tap the power of their own mind, or possibly the Collective Subconscious. Almost any magical ability can be explained by psi-even foci (crystals, anyone?).
Of course, I'd WAY up the Drain for any Psi ability, seeing how it's leveraging the universe against the Psi's will...
R
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ May 9 2005, 11:09 PM) |
| Do they not believe in mana? Then how can they astrally perceive/project? What specific delusion makes psions unable to work with other magic-types and unable to use foci that doesn't apply to at least one of the other traditions of hermetics, shamans, wujen, hougans, physical mages, etc? |
No, they don't.
| QUOTE (MitS @ 27) |
| Though most people in the Sixth World accepted the existence of magic after the Awakening, some preferred to consider the changes in their world to be a result of genetic mutation, or the influences of the collective unconscious, or even psionic manipulation of electromagnetic energies... |
| QUOTE (MitS @ 28) |
| Because they appear to either operate as charlatans (since they don't believe in magic) or as magicians denying their true nature, these self-proclaimed mentalists remain on the fringe of a fringe culture. |
Emphasis mine.
And many aspects of perception can be translated as ESP, and astral projection is... astral projection or remote viewing.
BTW,
| QUOTE (MitS @ 28) |
| Psionics can only cast spells that fit into the psionic model of magic as "the power of the mind."... The gamemaster chooses whether a psionic can learn a given spell. |
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) | ||||
No, they don't.
Emphasis mine. |
Again I reiterate: what, *exactly*, is the difference? Just the word "magic"? What exactly is it about the concept of "psionic manipulation" that makes it so fundamentally different from the Christian interpretation of "miracle energy", the shaman interpretation of "totemic power", the hermetic interpretation of "Whatever-the-hell-it-is" etc etc that makes them charlatans and all the others valid magical traditions?
Just the word magic. They don't believe in it, but they're using it.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| Just the word magic. They don't believe in it, but they're using it. |
As I've said before, that's why I detest the version of psionics in MitS. It doesn't fit well with most of what I've encountered from "real" psychics, nor from history or literature. In many cases, psychic powers are just another form of magic. I don't see psionics in 2070 being an exclusive "nothing mystical going on here!" club.
Granted, you're right. In SR, psionics should just be another form of magic, the same as hermeticism, shamanism, vodoun, etc. That doesn't mean that all psychics, or even the majority, don't believe in magic.
A number of psychics probably do think that all magic is really psionics, rather than the reverse. However, a larger number probably don't give a damn what you call it. Mana is ether is ectoplasm is mental energies. Different names, same thing. They just prefer to call themselves psychics and surround themselves with those tropes, rather than shamans or hermetics, because the idea of psychic powers fits their mindset better.
Beyond that, we get into the various kinds of psychics: everything from the 'scientifically' minded psychic researcher to the hippy crystal waver to the tarot-card diviner to the seance ghost channeler to the sly mental "pusher" and so on. I don't see why any of those would be forced into the mould that MitS puts psionics into.
Foci, spirits, astral perception/projection, geasa, initiation... they all fit in just fine to the psychic concept.
I'd say any psychic that's sane recognizes that magic exists. They may simply filter it through the mental lens of psychic abilities... but it all works the same, regardless of what they call it. They don't deny it exists; some of them just use a different word for it.
That's why I think it was asinine of the author to say that psionic characters "don't believe in magic." Does it really make a difference if the guy believes that he's using mental powers to ignite combustible gases in the air to create a fireball, invoking the words of power to call hellfire out of a higher dimension, or asking a fire spirit to lend some of its energy to the physical world in the place he needs? They all do the same thing, regardless of what they call it.
| QUOTE (Kesh) |
| I don't see why any of those would be forced into the mould that MitS puts psionics into. |
MitS does not force you to make psionics in that mold.
That whole section in MitS on alternate magical traditions (including psionics) is built around the idea that those are examples of some (not all) alternative magical traditions.
As such, the psionic of MitS is just one example of "psionics" in Shadowrun. There are many others, including those you listed.
| QUOTE |
| That's why I think it was asinine of the author to say that psionic characters "don't believe in magic." |
I think you need to read more of MitS. New magical traditions are being developed everyday. SOTA:2063 and SOTA:2064 expand on meta-magic powers, magical traditions, and "physical" adept types.
There are certainly other types of psionics out there just waiting for a GM and player to cook up.
My experience: most psychics believe in magic. Some use magic. Some don't. Most don't really care.
Personal experience: No measurable difference, no true way to distinguish, because nothing's measurable. Lots of possibilities.. ritual vs ritual-less, internal vs internal and external energy.. but, magic is capable of everything psychics are, at very least. Quite possibly more -- no way to know. Could just be semantics.
Literature:
Magic: uses internal and external energy to create affects.
Psychic: internal energy only to use specific psychic abilities.
Sometimes there's overlap, sometimes they're distinct. Sometimes magic can support psychic. I've never seen psychic support magic. Magic can't always do telepathy -- that's a psychic staple. Psychic can't usually heal -- magic usually can. Sometimes that's reversed in literature. Sometimes Healing is a psychic ability that's a blend of the two.
Astral projection is typically psychic. Magic tends to have astral perception (see the energy, aware of the energy). Psychics tend to have awareness of energy, but not the ability to see it('the feel of a place').
Personal experience: No measurable difference, no true way to distinguish, because nothing's measurable. Lots of possibilities.. ritual vs ritual-less, internal vs internal and external energy.. but, magic is capable of everything psychics are, at very least. Quite possibly more -- no way to know. Could just be semantics.
Literature:
Magic: uses internal and external energy to create affects.
Psychic: internal energy only to use specific psychic abilities.
Sometimes there's overlap, sometimes they're distinct. Sometimes magic can support psychic. I've never seen psychic support magic. Magic can't always do telepathy -- that's a psychic staple. Psychic can't usually heal -- magic usually can. Sometimes that's reversed in literature. Sometimes Healing is a psychic ability that's a blend of the two.
Astral projection is typically psychic. Magic tends to have astral perception (see the energy, aware of the energy). Psychics tend to have awareness of energy, but not the ability to see it('the feel of a place').
| QUOTE (Kesh @ May 11 2005, 01:55 AM) |
| That's why I think it was asinine of the author to say that psionic characters "don't believe in magic." |
Well to be fair it's not the only asinine thing in the book by a long shot. It's gratuitous sentences like that that make me wish I could make the book combust by staring at it hard enough.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) | ||
Well to be fair it's not the only asinine thing in the book by a long shot. It's gratuitous sentences like that that make me wish I could make the book combust by staring at it hard enough. |
Too bad you're a psychic and the GM just ruled that Transformation Manips--of which Ignite is a prime example--are outside the scope of psychic powers, so you'll never be able to, all because mana is prejudiced against people who use the word "psychic manipulation" as opposed to "miracle energy."
Not that most people would want to risk +1(D) drain just to do that anyway...
Damn you GM!
Look, poeple are fucktards. Take d20 future. They have no magic but they have psionics. Or look at Star whores...Tehy don't have magic, they have the force. Magic is soemthing that doesn't work in the real world. Pure and simple, and if you are playing a game of shadrun, it shouldn't matter what god,or ideals you use to gain power you should just have power.
Or, to rephrase that, if you pay for 30 build points worth of magic, you should actually *get* 30 build points worth of magic, and not somewhere around 20-22. It's a matter of balance.
cynic and eyeless speak wisdoms.
I agree with what several of the others said - that psionics as presented in MITS is just one approach that you could take to playing a psionic character. Their version is the broken/out-of-touch version, but you could just as easily play a hermetic or shamanic mage who is "psionic for flavor" - a normal, non-gimped mage who uses psionic terminology and sees his or her powers in psionic terms.
The Renewed Hermeticism paradigm...
They use parapsychology in their "research."
They use parapsychology in their "research."
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