 Question, Is change that bad? |
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 May 10 2005, 08:25 PM
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#51
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Traumatizing players since 1992  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220  |
Er no, actually. I',m not saying that. I said I'm not bashing the developers for making a new edition. A new edition is a worthy goal if it works okay. Honestly a revision at least needs to be done because of the rule creep that's occurred over the edition. I have always however been horribly down on the FAQ, primarily the 3rd edition FAQ. This was a dig at the FAQ not the development of 4th edition really. I doubt all or even most the people that are working on 4th were all involved in the FAQ. The FAQ is the target of my vitriol because it represents everything that is wrong with the mindset of game development. The FAQ is a Frequently asked questions. It is not an eratta, which is a definably separate document. It is supposed to clarify or answer questions about existing rules, where answers come from "people in the know". Instead we get things in the FAQ that have directly contradicted the books. This does not show an inherint understanding of either the existing system, not has it displayed any forethought for the consequences of the answers given in the context of the game world in my opinion. I don't expect SR4 to be perfect, and honestly I expect it will be decent. In general all my hostility and sarcasm is directed twards the FAQ and those responsible for it, and my main concerns about SR4 are solely that the person responsible for the FAQ will have enough input into SR4 to screw it up as bad as the FAQ gets. Beyond that all the other people working on SR have been doing good work and I have enjoyed and purchased all the releases for some time now in 3rd edition. I apologize if it appeared otherwise. Please consider all my bashing directed solely at the SR3 FAQ and the person responsible for it. No other persons involved do I have a problem with as far as I know. EDIT: I would also like to add that I apologize profusely to any of the developers or others whom I have offended. Honestly, I know you all are good people just doing your jobs. Unfortuantely this comes from the fact that this is a very sore spot for me, as SR is the only real RPG that I like, and I like it because of the world/atmoshphere and the basic dice mechanics... Which are the two things positively known so far to be getting an overhaul/replacement. It isn't because the developers aren't doing a good job, it's because in practice I haven't heard a single thing that tells me from the limited info available so far that it's actually staying something resembling SR except in name. All the info so far is how it's going to be completely different. None of the info has been reassuring. It all points to a sequal or paralell game more than a version update. |
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May 10 2005, 08:27 PM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX CAS Member No.: 1,097 |
Then I guess I am full of shit and I am a fool. :eek: What will I ever do? Oh noes!!!! |
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May 10 2005, 08:47 PM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: 10-July 02 From: SLC, Utah Member No.: 2,960 |
@ Superbum: Sorry for the earlier comment. I was over the top on that one.
@Adam: Thanks for addressing some of my concerns. I honestly am interested in anything SR4 related that has been released. I just have not found it, nor in the volumes and venues that you said. I'll look. Maybe they will say something that will give me a positive impression of SR4. In general. the reason why people are concerned about change here is basically many consider SR3 to be a good thing. When something is a good thing it usually is a bad thing to (completely) change it. And if it is going to be changed there better be a dam good reason for that change, and what it is going to be changed to should be better than the original. So far the changes that are being made do not show any improvements, just an over arching change to the entire game. Again this is a problem of communication. In all honesty maybe a short pre-release pdf similar to what Loose Alliance got would help. Veracusse |
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May 10 2005, 08:49 PM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Well, I'm sorry you're getting all twisted about it. You are in the enviable postion of being on the inside - with more info than us. But as has been mentioned - please just don't ecpect us to trust anyone blindly. What we're chewing to death is what little we have - and extrapolations. That's the best we've got. And we've been given very little to make us trust them - curetnly and historically. A lot of peeps have turned from the "Cool" to the "Err you're doing what?" Becuase of the faqs. I'd say stop doing them until they are ready to give us something as detailed as the Germans seem to be getting - but it looks like they've already tired of us and stopped. ;) I think it was the 'The more they lift the lid off this thing, the more it stinks' comment that offended them. But then again, maybe they're too busy for us mere fans anymore :-( |
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May 10 2005, 08:53 PM
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#55
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
There will, absolutely, be preview material released closer to the release date. That's the key -- closer to the release date. Preview material is designed to drive sales; you can't drive sales if the previews are released months before the book [if it's even physically possible to release said previews.] -- by the time the book is out, people have moved on to what's being shoved in their face at that time.
In the meantime, there are four other Shadowrun products being released that need previews, ebooks built, etc. |
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May 10 2005, 08:56 PM
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#56
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
Yes, we are. Number 1 reason for me is that, comparing what I see in English with what we're getting translated from German... I'm not seeing the same game. I don't mean same game as in same as SR3. I mean it feels an awful lot like I'm reading about two different games. Like SR US has one vision and thought, and SR Germany has a completely different thought process going on, and the twain are hardly meeting. |
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May 10 2005, 09:14 PM
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#57
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
I was wondering when someone would bring that up. Yeah, it's after reading stuff like that that I immediately concluded that the writer wasn't just clueless about stuff like politics (Oh, man...There's so much I could use here...), law (See Quoted), and government...He was PROUD to be clueless. I mean, my God! Whoever wrote the Native American Re-education camps stuff for SR1/SR2 ought to have been shot for the sake of humanity. You couldn't pull that off. Not even close. If the courts didn't nail you, the public would. And we won't go into the multiple SR variations upon violating the Holocaust Law (or at least doing the equivalent with everything else in history), the Crystal Power Law, and the Kill Whitey Law. And, oh yes, the Inquisition Law. To be fair, SR's current crop have to deal with the accumulated trash we were given previously, and stand upon that. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 10 2005, 09:20 PM
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#58
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Guests |
To be fair, I've mentioned it before. Most people's eyes tend to glaze over, though. Like IRL, and when I was discussing it on SL someone joked that I was pushing for a Shadows of the Courtroom book, with the tag line, "Watch out for that corner." But we could take this to the SOTA64 forum and discuss how appalling some of that chapter is.
I would agree with you sympathetically about having to deal with "accumulated trash," if it weren't for the fact that they have never been above historical revision (how about the fact that books published the same year as SoNA referred to CAS as a Confederacy until it became the Confederation of American States, or the India/Pakistan nuclear exchange?). However, to revise the SAIM/Lone Eagle/Re-Education Camp situation would require altering a fundamental part of SR lore. OTOH, some of the events of SR remind me of how long they were supposedly working on SR before it was released (I remember some rumor about how CP's beating them to the release in 86/87 led to all manner of changes in SR) to the extent that the only way I can conceive of having Warren Burger retire in 1994 is if they had been writing that part of the history before he retired in 1986. It's actually been something of an unimplemented desire to inject more political events and implications into the setting. One could practically write a book on 1990-2005 in the SR timeline, and one of the coolest books ever would be a history of SR that doesn't succumb to the desire to spill the secrets of various events from the Ordell Court's two major decisions to Lone Eagle or the Nightwraith attack further down the line. |
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May 10 2005, 09:43 PM
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#59
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Or perhaps a deliberate divergence from real-world events? ~J |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 10 2005, 09:49 PM
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#60
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Guests |
Or... Yeah.
Although it's not really as "dark future" or whatever you want to call it when you're engaged in historical revisionism for the sake of resolving something that could have been resolved by other means like they did with, say, the last four Popes in SR. |
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May 10 2005, 10:05 PM
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#61
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That's true, I'm not saying that it's a reason we can find real backing for. On the other hand, it's not wholly improbable that someone may have deliberately decided to change it to reinforce the idea that the game isn't meant to parallel real life. No particular support for that view, mind you, but it could result in the current timeline while still having been written with knowledge of his prior retirement.
~J |
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May 10 2005, 10:10 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318 |
I knew there would be flames. And I still think that I was dead on, when I painted some of the voices here on the forum as opinionated and closeminded. - I have not exactly been disproven, rather confirmed.
I've read the whole thread, but there were too many hooks I'd like to comment on, for me to do so without having to resort to the same verbal abuse you seem to favor and practice. Little content with simple words. One thing I can't keep from commenting, is the claim that DnD is without tactical considerations. - Thats not true. And since the basic rules are simpler, the variables are used more often, flanking, visibility, cover etc. In SR, when you have a few guys astrally, a decker in the Matrix, sams chopping spirits in the physical and a sniper popping Neurostun bullets at targets in melee, then you already have so many different rulesets going on, that the little stuff such as exactly how you are placed and how you can get "favorable position" compared to your opponent, is edited out so the combat can be kept in a tempo thats not taking all night. Simpler structure doesn't mean less tactics, it simply means the emphasis will move from the larger scale rules to the more specific and immediate surroundings on the battlefield. - Which is good. Fx stuff like visibility modifiers. In a party you have the Adept with super senses, the troll with heat vision and a normal human with a helmet thats got all the nobs in it. How does a GM typically handle lighting? - He sticks out a number and hopes his players go with it, so the game can focus on the action, instead of whether the troll gets a +2 instead of a +3 etc. SR3 is like playing 3 or 4 different games with the same general rules, but very varied application. Magic, melee, Matrix, rigging, vehicle, hmm I passed 4 different rulesets now. - I really look forward to the streamlining. It never made sense to me to keep the subparts to radically different. Fx why give vehicles near immunity but low body? - Why not just crank up that body and let the armor be doubled? - I'm certain the same balance could be achieved with less complex rules. Relieve rule pressure and you make room for the details to become the center of attention. I don't know, if you understand where I'm trying to take you, then good. If you don't.. Well, I'll not be the worse for it. :P |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 10 2005, 10:26 PM
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#63
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Guests |
That's a good point. I think that looking back on that period, a lot of things exist in a strange limbo. For example, with the election of 1992 resulting in a hard-right conservative as President, it begs the question about who was President from 1989-93. The wording of the text also suggests that a majority of the current Court was never appointed (Scalia, Souter, Thomas, Gunsburg or Breyer) as a result of that fact, which helps defer any suggestion about their decisionmaking by having the first fictional President appoint a majority of the Court that decided Seretech and Shiawase (I and II). |
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May 10 2005, 10:41 PM
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#64
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Target Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 31-May 02 Member No.: 2,802 |
Off topic sorry but something just hit a nerve... Japanese-American Internmit WWII Can't Happen? Public wouldn't stand for it? Courts? Do some fucking research on what the American government did to those people. 4 fucking years and most of Americans don't even know that it happened. |
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May 10 2005, 11:03 PM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
I think that was his point - It couldn't happen again. The media then is't the same as it is today. The president can't sneeze today witout a camera falling out of his back side. Back then you'd be luck to get a speech that he gave within a week. War reports took weeks to get to the USA, now we watch the action live. Anything like that atte[pted today would be on every televison in the world within minutes of the occurence, and then we'd come under a lot of heat from the UN. But I digress.......
Eh? you've got X dice representing your skill - and target number Y (Modified by z dice from your ***** pool). Whether you are in the matrix, astral plane or in the middle of physical combat. Those are the core rules - they are the same for each aspect of the game. 'Less complex ruleset' = Dumb it down. I don't mind a little streamlining of the rules, i.e. organization and a few tweaks. But I still think that most of the rules are just fine. |
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May 10 2005, 11:12 PM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: 10-July 02 From: SLC, Utah Member No.: 2,960 |
I am not asking for a preview right now. Plus it is good to know that a preview WILL be released. I will look forward to that. I think that it really worked for LA. I know I am interested in that one, which chapters I will like and which chapters I might not like. ;) Veracusse |
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May 10 2005, 11:15 PM
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#67
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Yes, there's no way the United States could possibly inter terrorists and those suspected of links to terrorism without due process in this day and age...
oh wait. |
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May 10 2005, 11:17 PM
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#68
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
LOL. I just know I'm going to get so much grief about that one line in Loose Alliances.
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May 10 2005, 11:34 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: 10-July 02 From: SLC, Utah Member No.: 2,960 |
First of all the complexity in your example lies in the fact that you have at least 7 player characters all clamoring to do something at once. In any game that is going to be complex. In all the examples of different rules' sets, the basic rule is always the same: Roll skill/attribute Rating + x number from apprpriate Pool = number of dice versus a TN + any modifiers. Modifiers are usually in easy to access charts. Now sure the basic rules are somewhat more complicated then some systems, i.e. roll d20 + Modifiers versus DC + Modifiers. The SR3 system is just really applicable in many different ways, which is one the beauties of the system. The real problem, IMO, that many have stated about the SR3 rules is that the main book and source books are not very well organized. It sometimes becomes a challenge to find and reference some rules. But these rules are generally added optional rules that don't necessarily need to be added to the core rules. This whol nonsense about SR3 being too difficult sometimes gets under my skin. Read the bloody rule book, its not that difficult. Veracusse BTW. Your baseless assertions about others and their open-mindedness and how they role-play is rather annoying. You are comming off as an arrogant prick. I don't know if that's what you intend, but it is definitely the tone that I am picking up from your posts. |
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May 10 2005, 11:39 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Err... Okay - you got me with that one. But, that isn't quite to the scale that what happend to the Japanese was. And one hopes that those being gathered are being gathred for a reason other than racial. |
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May 11 2005, 12:53 AM
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#71
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
What he said. Also, there's a matter of scale. Guantanamo has never gotten beyond a few hundred, IIRC. Both SR and the Japanese Internments are substantially larger. Which is precisely what my point was, as Eldritch notes so well. It has happened. It cannot happen again, however. Not something remotely like it (or SR's version). No chance. Back then, people didn't know about it. Now, how could they not? And in the circumstances portrayed in SR, with an Act of Congress involved? Uh, there's no chance in hell people wouldn't know. Also, there's a fundamental difference between Gitmo and the Internments (and, by the way, the camps in SR). Gitmo is happening against NON-Americans. The Internments happened against Americans, as is the similar situation in SR's case. No, we're not doing that again. Nobody would stand for it. Finally, there's something altogether different. Throughout SR (I believe in SR3, most significantly, though the book's nowhere near me at the moment), it's basically said that the Native American camps were basically death camps. Now, does anybody actually see that happening, ever, in the US? |
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May 11 2005, 12:56 AM
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#72
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Yes, yes, and yes.
~J |
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May 11 2005, 01:03 AM
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#73
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
<cocks an eyebrow> You think we would start death camps against, say, Arabs after another terror attack?
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May 11 2005, 01:06 AM
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#74
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
But how often do distinct ethnic groups rebel against the Federal government and launch nuclear missiles at a foreign nation, almost starting mutually assured destruction and wiping out whole swathes of the country? I'd be pretty pissed if someone tried it.
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May 11 2005, 01:06 AM
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#75
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
After one more? No. Give it a decade or so of such events? Yeah, I think that.
~J |
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