 Mental Attribute modifiers at chargen for meta's, Should these exist? |
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 May 12 2005, 01:17 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 176 Joined: 8-March 05 Member No.: 7,146  |
The mental attribute mods do make sence, but if someone wants to play a smart troll (for example). Perhaps you can negoiate with the GM for an edge to negate some of the intelegence mod. Kind of like the exceptional attribute edge.
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May 12 2005, 01:30 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 494 Joined: 19-February 05 From: Amazonia Member No.: 7,102 |
Actually quite the opposite in fact. Trolls and Dwarves and Elves and Orcs and Dragons and Humans were all created at the same time. We're talking about a fantasy world here people. You're acting as if it's real. If you want to do that then i'm game. While you might like Tolls a whold lot, they weren't made as smart as Humans. If you want to blame someone, blame Nightslayer. Nightslayer was the First Named. He named himself and created all of the races. "Nine tears fell from its eye and became creatures where they splashed upon the Earth. The first of those was the Dragon, Dayheart, who proudly proclaimed her name. The others did not have Names of their own, so Nightslayer gave them Names. They became the progenitors of the Young Races, who even now lack the ability to Name themselves and must be given Names by others." (Unpublished book Dragons p 21) And if you don't want to blame the First Named, then blame the Dark One, the Great Hunter, Named Verhigorm. He created Nightslayer in the first place. Humans ARE smarter then Trolls. Trolls ARE stronger than Humans. It's a fact. It's the way that it has always been. Humans were smarter than Trolls when they were both created, at the end of the Age of the Dark One. Humans were smarter than Trolls in the 4th world. and then there weren't any trolls in the 5th Age, and now, in the 6th Age, humans are STILL smarter than trolls. Trolls are NOT stupid, well, some are, but as many humans are as well. Humans simply have the potential to be smarter than any troll will ever be without augmentation. if you're so mad about having a Troll who isn't as smart sa the smartest human, (by the way, it's a VERY low percentage of humans that have Intelligence of 6, from experiance) give him/her an Encephalon or soemthing. WOrk around it. But, Trolls are NOT noturally as smart as humans. That's how it has always been and that's how it always WILL be. And, amazingly enough, there are some humans who are smarter than all the rest. That's where exceptional Attribute comes in. If you dont' want a minus to a stat, take the edge. Deal with it. EDIT: Oh, and don't bring skin color into this argument. that has NO bearing what-so-ever. Trolls are NOT FASAs way of making fun or people with dark skin. There is just shy of ZERO prejeduce against what color your skin is in the 2060s (There's always that one guy who hates some random grouop of people). Really. That has NOTHING to do with it. So, I think that we should stop with that argument altogether. EDIT #2: And, Intelligenge, in SR, does not in ANY way reflect knowledge. It is how smart you are. When I was 4 years old, i was just as smart (Read, i had the same intelligence score) as I am now. Now, with dedicated practice, and time, you CAN become smarter. You have to try REAL hard though. I didn't know ANYTHING when i was 4. But, I was smart. I could learn easily. (read: it took me less karma to raise knowledge skills) Being smart is genetic as well as a factor of growth environment. If i grew up around stupid people and was encouraged NOT to learn, then I would still not have those knowledge skills. This post has been edited by Chibu: May 12 2005, 01:45 PM |
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May 12 2005, 01:46 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Mental stat mods..
Intelligence has been done to death. Charisma.. Everything is relative to humans -- all the mods are from human, all the gear is human. In general, everything is 'human' oriented. Why wouldn't charisma be based on 'human' as well? People tend to respond better to more attractive people, smooth or pleasant voices. They tend to respond well to graceful, elegant. They don't usually respond as well to hulking monstrousities. In fact, there's a certain level of fear I would say. So why wouldn't elves be more charismatic then humans? (Tall, more graceful and elegant, finer features, voice -- all physical, genetically influenced things, that favourably influence dealing with people.) Orcs and Trolls? They're bigger. Tougher. They've got tusks. Trolls have horns and a lot of bone deposits. Even with them becoming more accepted, I really doubt that there wouldn't be a small element of 'fear' when dealing with them. Instinctive threat assessment (because everyone does that -- it's a survival instinct). Not to mention the way tusks affect speech. Isn't there something in the BBB about how Trolls need massive dental surgery to put human inflections on words? That'd screw with peoples responses too. |
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May 12 2005, 01:51 PM
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#29
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,168 Joined: 15-April 05 From: Helsinki, Finland Member No.: 7,337 |
Even taking that a step further, you could just talk to your GM about possibly negating a couple points of the Mental Attribute mods(-1 to CHA and INT instead perhaps), but in the process bumping a couple points off Body and Str to symbolize harder studying, less workout, etc. (Typically that comes from the actual point distribution though.) I find it's just easier to take the Exceptional Attribute edge, though. It's a good edge for those waning to break the molds of your troll or ork or something: and it will really make them stand out in the end. |
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May 12 2005, 03:12 PM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
IRL, there's an argument that we might be smarter at 4 years old than we are as adults, neh? We certainly learn (languages, etc.) easier. I have no problem with the idea that certain genetic factors lead to improved or degraded intelligence, so I don't see why a group that is obviously genetically different than the mainstream couldn't possibly have differences in mental ability. If you don't want to think of it as trolls being stupider, then just say they've got impaired senses (poor vision, smell, etc.) In SR3, Int. isn't a stat that covers just your learning and reasoning abilities, but also your perceptiveness. (something that will apparently be split out in SR4). (Noted by a person with [self-assessed] Logic/Reasoning ~ 4 and Perceptiveness ~2...) |
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May 12 2005, 05:31 PM
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#31
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Screw that, if there's a world in which slavery is accepted the paladin might own slaves and beat them to near the point of death regularly because to them it just isn't wrong. Just because someone is a paragon of their own moral virtues (or that of their deity) doesn't mean that they are, in anyone else's eyes, "good people". Put it this way: you have a foldable chair. If you damage or destroy that chair, do you feel that you have violated your moral code? ~J |
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May 12 2005, 05:55 PM
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#32
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 24-September 02 From: Centerville, UT Member No.: 3,307 |
No, but the modifier to attributes indicates that trolls are inherently less intelligent than humans. This is a fictional world we're talking about here, and if the game designers say in the rules that govern that world that trolls are less intelligent than humans it's not because they are prejudiced against trolls, it's because trolls are less intelligent than humans. |
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May 12 2005, 05:58 PM
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#33
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 24-September 02 From: Centerville, UT Member No.: 3,307 |
The problem is that D&D has an absolute moral code built into the game rules. Beating slaves is never good behavior in that frame work, so a Lawful Good Paladin who beats his slaves is in violation of his alignment, even if his society sees nothing wrong with it. |
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May 12 2005, 06:16 PM
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#34
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Hey, I've got this koo koo crazy idea. Why don't you try actually reading my entire post. You can do it! |
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May 12 2005, 06:51 PM
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#35
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 24-September 02 From: Centerville, UT Member No.: 3,307 |
I did read your post. I responded to the most interesting bit. |
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May 12 2005, 06:58 PM
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#36
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
In your response you go on to say exactly what he said next.
~J |
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May 12 2005, 07:10 PM
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#37
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 24-September 02 From: Centerville, UT Member No.: 3,307 |
Yes, but he said it poorly. Look at all the "racism!" posts that followed. Plus I have no problem with trolls having a penalty in overall capacity. |
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May 12 2005, 07:19 PM
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#38
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Looking at the posts, I think he communicated what he meant fairly clearly—at least I have no question about it, so unless I totally misinterpreted it I don't see a problem with it.
As you may have noticed in my reply immediately after, I have no problem with that either. He does, but he has a problem with that penalty, not with some nebulous idea that in the game they really don't have that penalty and this is just reflecting some socioeconomic factor. ~J |
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May 12 2005, 09:09 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 227 |
As I recall, Earthdawn trolls are just as smart as humans- no "perception" penalty, no charisma penalty and I seem to recall a slight boost to willpower. Orcs have a slight perception penalty, but its proportionally much less than in SR. But ED has other signifigant balancing factors, and ED trolls may in fact be a somewhat diffrent creature, or at least somewhat differently affected. Higher magic level, better child care (nobody knows how to best raise toll babies yet in 205x) etc..? |
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May 12 2005, 09:13 PM
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#40
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
It is indeed possible that some part of the Troll or Ork brain structure has not fully developed due to low mana levels.
Earthdawn racial modifiers: Humans: +0 across the board. Orks: Dexterity -1, Strength +3, Toughness +1, Perception +0, Willpower -1, Charisma -1. Troll: Dexterity +0, Strength +4, Toughness +2, Perception -1, Willpower +1, Charisma +0. ~J |
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May 12 2005, 10:27 PM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I don't even understand what the controversy is.
Metas sometimes have lower mental attributes due to GAME BALANCE. You know, that thing, where the GAME tries to keep any one thing from becoming too powerful, i.e. troll running around with body 12, intelligence 9, and magic 6? The basic idea that this is somehow unfair to a given character creation option (i.e. metaness) is so strange it's comical. It's like saying the 10M damage code is unfair to the Ruger Warhawk. So random, so bizarre. It is a game. There are rules. The rules make sense in the context of the game. |
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May 13 2005, 12:41 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 29-September 02 Member No.: 3,348 |
But I thought we were discussing Shadowrun. :D |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 13 2005, 12:44 AM
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#43
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Guests |
Then how about, "They're rules. They're non-negotiable, except that they are since you can House Rule trolls to be 6in tall and fly with purple wings coming out of their asses and who all have a +8 Int modifier along with the Body and Strength bonuses, the dermal armor and the thermographic vision."
There are a lot of reasons why I am sceptical of house rules or just don't like them, but mainly it's because of times when people want to play Trolls who get nothing but bonuses in spite of the rules, the lore, and the insanity of characters without flaws. Without the attribute reductions, as with certain other house rules I've seen over the years attacking fundamental features of the SR mechanics or world, it's not really SR anymore. |
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May 13 2005, 12:48 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 29-September 02 Member No.: 3,348 |
The problem is that none of this explains why spirits like elves better than humans, human better than orks, and orks better than trolls. Human standards of appearance would be meaningless to spirits. The other oddity is that Charisma affects Intimidation. I'd be more afraid of the average troll than the average elf, yet in the game, the average elf would default 5 dice from Charisma to intimidate people, while the average troll would default 1 whole die for intimidation. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 13 2005, 12:51 AM
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#45
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Guests |
For the third time... It's genetic. The part of their brains that deals with social interactions is broken or missing. As for Intimidation, Trolls may have to default to a lower Charisma, but they can also rely on "Aggressor is larger/taller than target +1 (I'd add +1 for each condition) Aggressor has more than twice the target's Strength +1 " to easily make up for the -2 hit to Charisma (Having a high Charisma score actually reduces an Intimidation victim's TN, you know. So your average elf walks into the room with a -1 TN for their subject's tests) on the Open Test. Just because they're big, slow and dumb doesn't mean they know how to scare people. Intimidation is a skill, not an inherent attribute of a person's social repetoire. |
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May 13 2005, 12:55 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 29-September 02 Member No.: 3,348 |
As opposed to the people who want to play elves, who get nothing but bonuses because of the rules, and in spite of the insanity of characters without flaws. :) |
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May 13 2005, 12:56 AM
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#47
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
The books do not really touch on whether the "stupidity" of trolls is genetic or other wise. I simply refer to it as Reason X, whatever reason it may be, the end result is that trolls suffer a negative Intelligence modifier.
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May 13 2005, 12:57 AM
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#48
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Ed Simons: Use the search function. In seconds you will find a multitude of arguments that Elves are nearly worthless and overpriced.
~J |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 13 2005, 12:59 AM
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#49
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Guests |
All metas get a net +3 attribute boost. Taking away the mental mods screws that all up. And so in that context, yes it is insanity compared to elves. Elves are gifted to only get bonuses. But just like everyone else they still only get 3 points worth.
No, it doesn't. But unless it's magic, genetics makes sense and environment makes none in placing a uniform ceiling on a whole race's mental abilities. |
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May 13 2005, 01:00 AM
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#50
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You do not want to drag the whole "Elves are overcosted for their BP costs" debate, do you? There is a whole thread in the old forums, just search for Polaris. |
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